Different players, but in his absolute peak (2007-2011) it's hard not to pick Alves if your life is on the line, dude was scary attacking and held his ground against Ronaldo in many clasicos, decent defender at his day.
Lahm v Dani Alves
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I remember Mourinho not even putting Ronaldo on his usual position on the left in Camp Nou in 2010.
It's amusing to see how Lahm has this Maldini reputation as a defender while Alves seems to be a glorified Clichy who needed to be protected by "the system".
A glorified Clichy? Clichy is non-existent getting forward but generally sound defensively. I agree with the principle of your point though, Alves falls victim to the generalisation that because he is a supposedly defensive player whose main asset is his attacking strength, then he must be weak defensively, which is not the case at all.
Regarding the Lahm v Alves debate, it's a tough one. Ultimately it boils down to what you look for in a full-back and the system you want to play. As a City fan I'd take a peak Alves as we rely on the width and attacking threat provided by the full-backs. It's hard to separate the two really. Lahm is the player I think most clubs would prefer, but if you have the team to get the best out of Alves then you simply have to pick him.
Well, since we are talking about the peaks and versatility does not seem to matter, why not take Lahm´s best season (2012/2013) as measurement, when he had the most freedom as RB and finished the season with 19 assists?
Lahm played the RB position differently as Alves. Alves biggest offensive impact was in the final third, while Lahm was first and foremost a build up player. Both were extremely important for the offense, but in different ways.
Saying that Lahm was a way better defender is also not underrating Alves´ defensive abilities, which were solid. Lahm was simply phenomenal at his peak and could take every player out of the game. While Alves was the best attacking fullback at his peak, Lahm was also top class in that regard while being by far the best defending fullback at the same time. Lahm was simply way more complete as a player.
I also don´t remember Alves forcing Robben (at least the one at his peak at Bayern) to switch flanks. When they played vs. each other they spend the vast majority of the time on opposite flanks to begin with. Robben spend his time embarrassing Alba and Adriano while Alves faced Bayern´s primary play maker Ribery.
Boohoo, he made a mistake after playing a fantastic tournament. He scored the game winning goal in extra time in the semifinal with the same support cast and lead an underwhelming Germany side to the Euro final after all. Clearly he sucked in 2008.
He was quite shaky in the semi-final against Turkey as well defensively, responsible for Turkey's equalizer for example. He only made amends with the winner afterwards.
He was also far from outstanding in midfield last year for Germany, responsible for Ghana's goal after which Löw stopped trying to copy Guardiola and played him at rightback again.
My point is not dissing Lahm. There is just this funny narrative that Lahm is this consistent, defensively untouchable, versatile standout player who has proven himself in all positions under all kind of managers. Which is funny for me. He can't play in midfield outside of Guardiola's system for example, that was quite clear when watching him for Germany. Yet none of you Bundesfolks will analyse how Bayern's system protects Lahm in midfield and call him a "system player" like Alves supposedly is.
Lahm was also at fault for Ronaldo's goal in Allianz in 2012, which he himself admitted. There are quite a few errors he made in high profile games. He is not this defensive rock Sphaero above me paints him to be.
What you say in that third paragraph can easily be applied to Dani Alves too though, in reverse - i.e. he was top class defensively while being by far the best offensive full back at the same time. I think the fact that Dani Alves has declined so much perhaps clouds your view, go back a good few years and he simply owned the entire right wing.
I have no interest in criticising Lahm because I think he was/is superb too, but I don't think he was more complete, Dani Alves could do pretty much everything. Not sure being complete is that important anyway.
I never called Alves a system player. He's an outstanding attacking fullback and could play in any system that wants his rightback to attack. I also never called Lahm a flawless defensive rock or a worldclass midfielder. I don't really see the need to analyse how Bayern's system protects Lahm in midfield, because it means feck all in the context of this thread. But thanks for throwing around a few senseless accusations.
Sphaero implied that, not you:
Senseless accusations? Maybe follow the thread properly then?
I think all Barcelona defenders suffer from this 'phenomena'. Some people think that being a Barca defender means you're average defensively. That its all about their midfield and attack. Its a fallacy in argument. Similar to 'Messi can't perform without Xavi, Xavi can't perform without Iniesta' type of logic. In the end no one gets credit for their performances, their success depends solely on their teammates apparently.I remember Mourinho not even putting Ronaldo on his usual position on the left in Camp Nou in 2010.
It's amusing to see how Lahm has this Maldini reputation as a defender while Alves seems to be a glorified Clichy who needed to be protected by "the system".
Maybe you shouldn't reply to my posts and make general assumptions on every German here, if you actually want to argue a certain point someone else made. I'm sure Sphaero is still waiting for you to explain, why Alves wasn't a regular starter for Brazil during his peak (Copa 2007 & 2011 and the World Cup 2010), if he was that flawless rightback, who was unmatched in attack and could defend well. I personally found it odd, that Maicon was usually the prefered choice (it was a bit understandable in 2010 after Maicon's fantastic season at Inter though). But overall Alves' career for Brazil clearly is a huge disappointment in comparison to his performances for Sevilla and Barca.
That doesn't really mean that much, Brazil managers have a history of making stupid selection calls.
Edit: Just to add, Lahm definitely wins on the international front of course. I don't think it makes a huge difference to the credibility of a player if they're unselected by Brazil though.
Well, he wasn't just unselected. He was often disappointing when he played. He started the first 2 games in the copa in 2011 and was dropped and lost his spot to Maicon again, because he didn't show anything close to the form he had for Barca in the previous 12months.
Is that a relevant point? Why didn't Cambiasso, Zanetti and Milito play in 2010? Why did Messi remain on the bench in 2006 and Julio Cruz came on instead? And ultimately how did Felipao's management choices prove to be the correct ones when he got dicked 1-7? This is the same man who didn't even call up Miranda, Felipe Luis and lost Diego Costa to a different national team because he prefered Fred instead. So why clinge onto Alves not delivering under a scrub manager in a scrub team?
Apart from that I never even made a point about Alves being a flawless, unmatched player.
Not an easy choice. Lahm was great. Could play many positions while still being world class and could probably play in any team in the world.
But in his peak.... ALVES... all day, he was a world beater and probably the best right back in a while. He had everything and was pivotal to how barca play.
Alves for me.
But in his peak.... ALVES... all day, he was a world beater and probably the best right back in a while. He had everything and was pivotal to how barca play.
Alves for me.
Alves for me and by some distance.
I find Lahm a bit overrated. A very good player, consistent and versatile but never touched the heights Alves did.
I find Lahm a bit overrated. A very good player, consistent and versatile but never touched the heights Alves did.
Yes, because we're talking about his whole career for the nationalteam and not just one short moment, which is what you're doing with all most of your examples. E.g. there simply aren't any questionmarks about Zanetti's performances for Argentina even though Maradona was an idiot for not picking him in 2010. The same can't be said for Alves.
Yeah i wouldn't put much weight on Brazil's selections. Those idiots consistently chose dross like Jo and Fred over Diego Costa until he finally had enough of waiting. A past his prime Julio Cesar who was a second choice at QPR continued to be their no. 1 despite Alves having much better seasons and was playing in the Champions League. Miranda has been one of the best centre backs in recent seasons yet continues to be overlooked for David Luiz, what a joke.
edit: on a side note how the hell is Luiz first choice while Miranda, who has been part of the best defense in Europe not even in the team. Boggles my mind.
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Then just let me ask you back. Explain to me why Alves didn't perform for Brazil.
True, but when your club form is so good I think you can be allowed a little slack when it comes to international performances. Plus, like I said, Dani Alves performed amazingly well for Sevilla too so he was hardly just great in the Barcelona system.
Lahm has hands down been better internationally, but overall I still think a peak Dani Alves was the better player.
What about :
peak Lahm vs peak Maicon?
peak Lahm vs peak Maicon?
Lahm...full back is meant to defend after all and i think Lahm was better at it.
Maicon....3 season under Mou?
I don't really care why, to be honest. I don't think there really is an excuse for it. I factor in that he didn't. It plays an important role in the comparison between the two players in my opinion.
It's by the way funny that you thought it was important to show a mistake by Lahm at the international stage, even though Lahm's overall performances for Germany are clearly exceptional, both his peak and his consistency. On the other side you think it's totally meaningless how Alves did for Brazil. Seems a bit unfair to me.
Alves' prime was adjacent to Maicon's, thats why he was used as a 12th man by Dunga. He was pretty decent, his performance against Argentina in 2007 copa america finals is insanely good.
Lahm win hands down on overall career, and rightly put him above Alves on GOAT ladder. But judging on peak performance, Alves is something else.
I actually think Maicon is really underrated nowadays. His peak at Inter was fantastic, but Bale in 2011 and his short spell at City ruined his reputation. He also had a great world cup in 2010 until he completely lost the plot in the 2nd half against the Netherlands, when Brazil as a team collapsed. That was a very weird game.
Full backs are meant to attack and defend. Not just defend, this isn't 1990.
How is his reputation ruined? If anyone thinks a meaningless group game after he just won the treble tarnished his reputation you aren't really a football fan. He was incredible imo, between 2006-2010 he was heads and shoulders above any fullback. Also, one of the most athletic players i've seen.
Never rated Alves that much. He was a fantastic crosser and had a good shot on him, but thought that defensively was crap. On a team that would need to defend, he would have murdered.
Now, Lahm or Maicon at their best is a real debate.
Now, Lahm or Maicon at their best is a real debate.
That's not what happened though. You started the argument by stating that Lahm trumps Alves based on national team performances. Then I replied: "Can't compare one of the best Germany teams of all time with Brazil of recent years" and gave an example how Lahm could look like when he wasn't playing for the current Germany team which is the best Germany team in many decades. So my main point was the incomparability between the 2 when one is clearly playing in a much superior team and not "Lahm = shit and Alves' performances shouldn't count".
Obviously you don't care to answer why Alves doesn't perform. Because the answer is simple and would contradict the point you want to make. Alves played the Copa America in 2011 alongside Ramires and Ganso in midfield and Pato and Robinho roaming upfront whereas Germany is easily the best NT in the world right now that can win the World Cup with players like Reus and Gündogan injured and Götze sitting on the bench. I mean: What next? "Why doesn't Ronaldo perform as well as Thomas Müller in World Cups?"
That's just nonsense, he's proven himself to be capable defensively plenty of times. Playing as an adventurous wing back doesn't mean you can't defend if you have to.
Start a poll regarding the best fullbacks of the past 10 years and you'll see. Also, I doubt you'll convince many on here that Maicon between 2006-10 was on the same level as Alves, let alone head and shoulders better than any fullback (which includes leftbacks like Cole and Evra as well).
If I make the poll in an italian forum, i'm sure most would agree with me
.I'm biased though, I also think prime Maicon was better than Cafu. But my friends have made fun of me for saying this.
Fair point.If I make the poll in an italian forum, i'm sure most would agree with me
Yeah, you're definitely on your own with that one
.This post sums it up for me. Lahm was the better package, overall. His defensive nous, understanding of what's happening around him, and his reading of the game are all amazing (and a big reason why he works so well as a midfielder as well).
Going forward, he's great on the ball, and his crossing is amazing. You can tell that he has great vision by looking at his great deliveries from out wide.
However, as antohan pointed out, Dani Alves was a monster going forward, even better than Lahm in that aspect. He pretty much ran Sevilla's right side by himself, and he became their most important player during his time there. At Barcelona, he was one of their key players, providing width, directness, and attacking aggression that'd cause opposition defences lots of problems. His dribbling is akin to those of world class wingers as well as his deliveries. His fierce shots from the right ensured that the opposition could never leave him alone in space.
Still, though, 4/5 times, I'd pick Lahm ahead of Alves.
Boohoo, he made a mistake after playing a fantastic tournament. He scored the game winning goal in extra time in the semifinal with the same support cast and lead an underwhelming Germany side to the Euro final after all. Clearly he sucked in 2008
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oh and the point was that Alves didn't even play at rightback. Maicon was usually first choice at the international tournaments during Alves' peak. It has nothing to do with the support cast, when he doesn't even start.
Wasn't Lahm terrible in the semi final against Turkey? I'm sure Sabri was ripping one fullback apart in that game. Though he scored the winner.
Pretty much this. Lahm's the more rounded and likelier to fit into more set-ups. But Alves and Barcelona were a perfect match and there was nobody who could do what he did better.
Lahm scores higher than most as a modern player prototype who for all his neat-and-tidy ball retention is still defensively solid. But I have to agree with much of this: he's made a few fairly significant mistakes in a handful of big games, mainly at Euro 2008 and 2012, which is the only black mark against his otherwise impressive reputation.
Dani Alves was world class.
Lahm is probably one of the best defenders in history of football.
Lahm is probably one of the best defenders in history of football.
I think Alves vs. Maicon would be a very good thread. Both players were at their peaks at the same time, and both were very similar, if not the exact same, in the way they played.
That's true. Some think of Dani Alves as a winger who can't defend, and that irks me, because Dani Alves was a beast in 1-on-1 situations. His recoveries always amazed me as he was very fast and energetic. In 1-on-1's, he didn't just rely on his speed and strength like many full backs do nowadays. He was also decent at reading the opposing dribbler and knowing where they would go, and that, combined with his speed, energy, and strength, made it difficult to get past him.
Having said that, Lahm's defensive ability was more than just about 1-on-1's. Many times, he's shown himself to be in the right place at the right time, and he was very good in defending areas as well as opposing dribblers.
I'll also add on how Valencia gave Lahm a tough time when we faced Bayern at Old Trafford in 2010 in the Champions League. He just couldn't keep up with Valencia, physically. There were a few matches were Lahm did struggle to impose himself, defensively, but more often than not, he's done a very good job defending his side.
Ridiculous post.
A stat that might shock you. Alves averages way more tackles and interceptions than Lahm.
2014/15
Lahm - 0.43 tackles per game, 0.86 interceptions per game
Alves - 3.09 tackles per game, 1.39 interceptions per game
2013/14
Lahm - 0.82 tackles per game, 1.29 interceptions per game
Alves - 2.37 tackles per game, 2.0 interceptions per game
2012/13
Lahm - 1.55 tackles per game, 1.66 interceptions per game
Alves - 2.3 tackles per game, 0.87 interceptions per game
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...129/129/117/0/p#tackles_won/interceptions#avg
Not saying Alves is a better defender. Not at all. But you're talking as if Alves couldn't defend.