Yeah, as I said, not sure they’re good enough, but apparently they were Klopp's choices. Or the committee’s?
Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Yeah, as I said, not sure they’re good enough, but apparently they were Klopp's choices. Or the committee’s?
Klopp's Dortmund ran into problems with teams that sit back and don't commit numbers forward. He got found out in his final season there which was an utter mess.
Not really surprising that his current Liverpool team are having the same issues.
I think when it all goes well his sides are wonderful to watch (Liverpool in the first 20 minutes of the second half against Arsenal were genuinely impressive) but they have a very narrow window to get everything just right and when it isn't, they're shite.
Not really surprising that his current Liverpool team are having the same issues.
I think when it all goes well his sides are wonderful to watch (Liverpool in the first 20 minutes of the second half against Arsenal were genuinely impressive) but they have a very narrow window to get everything just right and when it isn't, they're shite.
The concern for Liverpool is that it's a tactic that's going to be incredibly simple for a lot of opposition sides to use - sit back, and hit on the counter when you can. Won't always work, but as long as they're dodgy defensively a lot of sides will capitalise like Burnley did today.
The problem is moreno+ cm. Can, Henderson and Wijnaldum all lack the brain to become top midfielder. They can do the donkey work but they can't control games, shield the defence or unlock the opposition.
Indeed, and it's rather worrying that everyone has been saying this since last season and yet it still hasn't been addressed despite us not having spent (on balance) hardly anything this Summer. Overall I was happy enough with the transfers we made .. it just hasn't gone far enough.
Can, I disagree with you on. He's a youngster, plays for the German national side and is improving all the time so can certainly become a top midfielder - but he's no DM. Many 'Pool fans think Henderson may be done, the injuries he's had having too much impact to recover from. He's shown signs of a recovery but yesterday was awful again and I think his time as a starter may be coming to an end. Wijnaldum isn't a CM, he's an AM / LW and he's being neutered by being shoe-horned into playing as a defensive midfielder, how is that playing to his strengths of speed and the potential for adding to our goal-scoring ? Grujic's time may come sooner rather than later, same may be said of Ejaria who's probably, even at 18 yrs old, our 2nd best defensive-minded midfielder, which says something !
Yesterday was an abortion of a game as far as our performance was concerned, especially our failure to get in behind their defence, playing in front of them the whole game.
Defence
It was impossible for Burnley not to score a goal against a defence with Clyne/Lovren/Klavan/Milner and Mignolet in goal.
Milner will never be a good left-back and everyone (apart from Klopp) knows that but that he has replaced Moreno already in that position on Matchday 2 is a surprise for me.
If i would be a Liverpool supporter then i would drive to Klopp's house and would ask him just two questions - "Why haven't we signed a left-back?" and "Do we sign a left-back in the next 10 days (because if not then i'll take a happy 7-8th place)?"
It was impossible for Burnley not to score a goal against a defence with Clyne/Lovren/Klavan/Milner and Mignolet in goal.
Milner will never be a good left-back and everyone (apart from Klopp) knows that but that he has replaced Moreno already in that position on Matchday 2 is a surprise for me.
If i would be a Liverpool supporter then i would drive to Klopp's house and would ask him just two questions - "Why haven't we signed a left-back?" and "Do we sign a left-back in the next 10 days (because if not then i'll take a happy 7-8th place)?"
Terrible performance. Harsh on him though. His skill sets are that of a box to box. Why did Klopp buy attacking midfielder like Wijnaldum when he has Lallana and Coutinho, and only one proper DM in Lucas?
They tried for Sanchez. Players don't want to join them and Liverpool just aren't a big pull. It's not just the club. The city itself is a dump. Why go to Liverpool when a club from London can offer you the same wages or more?
Even when they had champions league. The best they managed was Balotelli.
They have too many players who blow hot and cold. Coutinho is the biggest fraud going. He can score a screamer one game and disappear the other. Laughable that people think he could play for Barca.
Generally agree but it is premature to write Coutinho off. He's 24 and can improve further. I'm sure he'll be better than last season. Yesterday he was crap though.
Is Bob banned?Just seen his post about Pogba's first touch. Bob Loblaw's spirit lives on
@Kentonio will love that.
I've given up hope on the left back situation. It really doesn't look like anyone is coming for that, which really is dangerous (RB doesn't have a lot of cover either).
Said on here a few days back that I expected us to drop points against Burnley, but that was a truly shocking performance yesterday. Far worse than I thought it was going to be. We don't even have the comfort of saying we were unlucky because their keeper played a blinder, or we hit the woodwork 4 times. Only consolation we can take is that it happened early on in the season & it should serve as a wake up call to Klopp & the players that your last result counts for feck all in The Premiership. Getting really, really pissed off with these bi-polar performances.
You don't need top players though. You have Klopp!
Its been a problem with Klopp for a while now, even his Dortmund side found it tough to break down weak teams that just sit back and were an absolute joy to watch vs the big teams who came at them. They relied very heavily on set pieces if memory serves me right. It will be the same with you guys till he finds a plan B of playing. Pressing high up the pitch and attacking in numbers is great vs sides that come at you but will not work 9 times out of 10 vs the Burnleys of this world. I dont think its just a case of lacking the players either, its more to do with the manager having a system that works vs such teams.
Have Liverpool really improved under Klopp? I mean, sure there is more optimism and more passion but how long will that last? Surely, someone will come up and say where exactly have we improved? The results aren't better-Rodgers had a win % of 50.3% , Klopp has it at 44.4%, Defence hasn't improved, they still concede similar amount of goals from set pieces. Their passing has not improved, and sure they create and shoot more, but most of those shots are speculative long range shots from which 1 in 10-15 goes in. They press more which is good, but their pressing isnt that good, nor are their fitness levels of the standard to press for 90 minutes
I think signing a monster DM would vastly improve the balance of the MF in most selections & make possible selections offer a lot more variety. (that's a terrible sentence).
Team retains possession OK but struggles to break down parked-bus defences is an ongoing problem? I can somehow see how the front 4 might struggle with that despite their overall style of play saying otherwise, no one stands out as being the one who scores from getting on the end of crosses. The crossing was diabolical anyway though.
And a LB, although with the benefit of hindsight, Moreno should have started yesterday. Is Can properly injured?
Next 3 games look interesting now, 6-7pts is still OK-ish, fewer than that leaves you 3/4 of the way down the League & isn't good for morale, and takes some recovering from even at this early stage. Could still be 9 or 10 though with a couple of wins, which would be very good with some tricky games out of the way. More space for your attack at Tottenham one would think.
Team retains possession OK but struggles to break down parked-bus defences is an ongoing problem? I can somehow see how the front 4 might struggle with that despite their overall style of play saying otherwise, no one stands out as being the one who scores from getting on the end of crosses. The crossing was diabolical anyway though.
And a LB, although with the benefit of hindsight, Moreno should have started yesterday. Is Can properly injured?
Next 3 games look interesting now, 6-7pts is still OK-ish, fewer than that leaves you 3/4 of the way down the League & isn't good for morale, and takes some recovering from even at this early stage. Could still be 9 or 10 though with a couple of wins, which would be very good with some tricky games out of the way. More space for your attack at Tottenham one would think.
I genuinely think that Klopp will get found out at Liverpool, and I am not just saying that since he manages Liverpool.
His last two \ last season at Dortmund where the kryptonite against his tactic was found out by the BL, and his inabillity to adapt and find a sustainable plan B in that period was a tell tale sign. Also from what I have seen from him in the transfer market at Liverpool I suspect that Dortmunds stellar organization was more behind his transfer successes than himself. Also I am not sure if it is the quality of his defenders or if he has taken a book out of Martinez book on organizing a defence, but it is simply not good enough.
@slig , what do you reckon? Think Klopp will fail at Pool?
Tend to agree with your post. Have been saying this since his last season at Dortmund when his response to poor results was not convincing. His reliance on certain players exposed him, whereas his replacement has shown what could be done at Dortmund. Those final games revealed Flopp's cluelessness. Before Moyes I thought he was the perfect candidate, now very glad the Scouses got him.
Exactly. He has had a summer and a winter transfer window, and all I'm seeing is a side that has is far too unbalanced. While most of that can be attributed to Rodgers, but Klopp hasn't done anything to improve that. They are not having a decent defensive midfielder nor a central midfielder. They are only investing in attacking midfielders, all of whom are just slight improvements on the ones they already have. Sure Mane is good, but he isn't exactly a huge upgrade to their side as say Xhaka or some other CDM could have been.
The biggest problem at Liverpool is far from Klopp. It's simply the lack of quality.
Liverpool keep buying players from mid table clubs. After some time it begins to show. There's no balance in their recruitment.
Their entire policy depends on Klopp turning potential into world class and a egre players into quality.
They're asking too much from him. People should also remember that it' was Zorc who was largely responsible for transfers at Dortmund not Klopp.
Compared to Dortmund, Liverpool's transfer committe is very poor.
Liverpool keep buying players from mid table clubs. After some time it begins to show. There's no balance in their recruitment.
Their entire policy depends on Klopp turning potential into world class and a egre players into quality.
They're asking too much from him. People should also remember that it' was Zorc who was largely responsible for transfers at Dortmund not Klopp.
Compared to Dortmund, Liverpool's transfer committe is very poor.
They have enough attacking quality to score vs the Burnleys of this world.
If I'm not mistaken, Klopp signed for Pool on condition that he will be given freedom to sign players(atleast there were reports about it). His signings so far have been pretty Pool-esque. Not addressing key areas, and signing guys like Klavan. Mane, I'd say is a good signing but shouldn't have been a priority signing, which he was made to be.
The gave him some leeway, at least that's what Klopp said. But the committee still exists and are responsible for signing players. He is also part of that committee but I'm not sure he has that big an influence.
You have to look at it differently. Do they have the quality to break down an organized packed defence on a consistent basis. The answer is no.
They could do with better quality for sure but my point is that's not the only thing holding them back. Klopp has always struggled vs such teams and it wont change till he gets better at it. An attack that contains the likes of Sturridge, Coutinho, Firmino etc shouldn't struggle to break down the likes of Burnley on a consistent basis and that's nothing new, it was the same for Pool last year.
You might be right. I saw a tweet some weeks ago. In the last 4 years Liverpol have spent over £250m on players from clubs that have finished 7th or below in the league. If that continues without buying some proven Class players, why should people be surprised they are finishing 7th or below every season?
That's what I'm thinking.
What good is attacking quality gonna do if it gets isolated? Their attacking unit is their smallest problem, although they would do really well with a game changer of the calibre of Marco Reus, who is extremely good in scoring the opening goal.
Their one big problem is that their midfield and fullbacks suck for a proactive playstyle. That was also the biggest problem in our last season with Klopp. In difference to Pool, who simply don´t have these kind of players, ours were either injured nearly the whole time (Sahin) or just came back from a huge injury (Gündogan).
It is not this nonsense of Bundesliga coaches finding out Klopp in his last season and unless someone can actually point out what mid and lower table teams did differently to let´s say 2012, it will just stay what it it: a myth. The problem was not them doing something differenty, but us being unable to do the same things we did the three seasons prior to that.
In fairness, the first Burnley goal completely shifted the dynamics of the match. Burnley instead of actually attacking to open up the play, just sat back with two rows of four and one in front of them. Because of that it becomes very hard to score. Still though had that been City they would have at least opened the defense up and had a few shots on target.
Klavan looked very poor. Henderson simply isnt good enough. Then James Milner couldnt hit a cross in on his left foot. Sturridge then doesnt work hard enough for the system Klopp wants to implement.
They've not bought well for a while now, agreed.
If Klopp thinks it's his CM options that's holding the team back, why hasn't he improved them? Anyways, regarding what I said, do you disagree that Klopp's style isn't suited to beating weaker sides and is much better at getting results vs the top ones?
Because of the market situation. What good CM was on the market, who was attainable for them? They don´t offer International football and face fierce financial competition in the league.
The one market they have a bigger than usual pull would be the German one because of Klopp, but even over here the classy options are very limited. The really good ones will play CL this season and the ones who might be attainable (Goretzka, Geis, Arnold) play at clubs who will be reluctant to sell because they already lost other players this window. IMO their best option would have been to throw the bank sooner at either Schalke or Wolfsburg and hope it accomplishes anything.
By now their best options is probably to hope that Klopp manages to develop Grujic quickly.
Oh, without a doubt. As with any reactionary system, it is better suited vs. stronger and active competition. It is also statistically undenieable that Klopp won both league titles with us by taking points from the direct competition and not by sheer consistency vs. mid and lower table clubs. For the vast majority of the time we were still a good deal better than Pool in dealing with that as we simply had stronger individual quality in the squad. The 2012/2013 or current team for example is in every single position superior to the current Liverpool side.
I don't know numerous players they could have signed tbh, the amount of football I watch outside of the PL has gone down drastically. Even then, the ones you mentioned are there from Germany. Spain always seem to have CMs that are good, say someone like Carvalho from Portugal or even players from Italy given how competitive PL clubs are now when it comes to clubs from other leagues in terms of the financial package. Its not as if they have a very high standard to upgrade anyways, the likes of henderson, Milner etc dont take much beating.
In any case, my point was that it isnt the quality of personnel that sees them struggle to beat the Burnleys of this world, its the lack of a plan B for Klopp which means his usual style is rendered ineffective when the opponents sit back with men behind the ball and asks Pool to break them down.
I don't think the league position of the clubs of origin is the real issue - many good players come from lower leagues, never mind lower in the Prem.. More important is the choice of which players, rather than the clubs they're signed from.
Depends on what they expect. Would it be a sucess giving them a typicaly characteristic and a clear philosophy? The style of Klopps teams could be a joy to watch for audiences like Pool, that would be an improvement of the club, which stands for nothing for me the years before.
Would it be a sucess by slowly improving them? A trophy in his first (complete) year is a little bit far aim i would think. What Klopp can achieve there is also depending on their transfers. Karius might be a clever transfer, and getting Matip for nearly nothing is also good, but the likes of Klavan as a backup or so istn really a big step forward to me. Normally, with the financial power of a PL team like Pool, there must exist great players to get. Dont know why its not happening, maybe the board isnt so good in things like that and only having Klopp isnt enough to getting better at transfers. I mean in the end of his time at Dortmund there were growing some doubts about his footprint in all our fantastic transfers of the last years, for example it turns out that our flop Immobile was more his choice than of the board. While our transfer policy remains fanstastic without him.
If they get some quiteness and patience into the club, letting him work and back him up, there is a big chance for improving them i think. Klopp attract some players, more than a Rodgers, and a PL is having a lot of money so for the transfer thing there is a chance of doing it well. The tactical weakness of the PL is a good enviroment for a Kloppsystem having sucess. But two things remain problamatic: Klopps possession football, and the transfers who have to be good to be sure that they are climbing up the table. Iam surprised how weak their squad is until today, though with the end of the last season they really getting started with sort things out and getting a lot of good players.
It was only Burton, but Mane still looks good, and Henderson... I think it's not looking good for him. Swapping in Can as part of the midfield three in place of him seems to be a better idea right now.
Poor old Hendo has just completely lost his touch. And I don't just mean from a 'woooaaaaargggghhh..... he's always been crap' or however you might say it, perspective either. Basic footy skills almost completely gone atm, judging from the last 2 games.
News on the Can injury is what might be interesting today. In some ways, that didn't look very good. On the other hand, he was being such a massive tool while it was happening it's quite hard to tell. I proper proper 'ates Emre Can but would not wish him to be seriously injured as that would not be a nice thing to be wishing for. Also, you get banned & stuff,.
News on the Can injury is what might be interesting today. In some ways, that didn't look very good. On the other hand, he was being such a massive tool while it was happening it's quite hard to tell. I proper proper 'ates Emre Can but would not wish him to be seriously injured as that would not be a nice thing to be wishing for. Also, you get banned & stuff,
. Henderson was actually a decent box to box prior to his injury. He's now just too bloody crap.
Are there any attacking players in your side who like staying wide as opposed to playing wide and then cutting in? Obviously it's more complicated than that but Liverpool do seem to lack width when they need it atm.