But not in the early 80s?
Liverpool
- Thread starter Sally Cinnamon
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Nope. It came in around 92 or 93.
So therefore Liverpool were not operating with foreigners in the eyes of Uefa in '84?
Guess who brought that topic.
A little harsh to be fair. We only really broke onto the European scene in terms of experience in 97 when we lost out to Dortmund in a game we dominated but a string of extraordinary misses cost us the chance to play Juve in the final. We won it the following year and we failed to build on that when that team should have achieved more. However the fact is that we were very naive tactically in Europe still, even in 99 where we simply managed to outscore teams consistently, a little bit like Liverpool this year it was all or nothing for us. The following year we lost to a top class Madrid side but again we gave a good account of ourselves and weren't completely outplayed.
The Ronaldo/Rooney side broke fully on the scene in 06/07, we won it the following year. They were helped by Queiroz instilling a more tactically balanced game in Europe overall. That Barca side broke the following year and became dominant. We actually gave a decent account of ourselves in the Rome final when watching the game back (It certainly wasn't a massacre like 2011). We lost Ronaldo and Tevez while Barca held onto all their important players. I have little doubt we'd have won at least one more had Ronaldo stayed. We actually came real close the next year but ultimately Rooney's injury cost us a chance of playing a very beatable Inter side in the final.
In the years in between those sides we were in the position we are in now (well not as severe but still clearly behind the others, we needed some freshness and a rebuild and ultimately seen a dip in form from Scholes and Giggs, seen Beckham leave, Keane get old and lost Stam and Schmeichel.
Whether the Champions League is harder to win I couldn't tell you but it's definitely proved to be hard for any one side to be completely dominant even that Barca team. We have had as good a record as anyone in the late 00's before our great side began to slow down through sales and age.
No. But the German,Italian,Spanish leagues all allowed a maximum of 1 or 2 foreigners.
I remember thats the reason why Liam Brady left Juventus-they had signed Platini and they sold Brady to create a space.
Barcelona sold Allan Simonsesn to create room for Maradona.
Does this not reflect a certain financial clout that Liverpool didn't have...Platini, Maradona, Brady...yet Liverpool bossed the lot. Coz they were the best.
I actually have 6 of them at my work place and they are all the same too. They think the same, they always have to add that they dont think it will happen at the end yet keep going on about it everytime they see each other. I have no doubt they believe City are going to lose and Andy Carroll is going to win it for them.
But what are you lot on? One good season and Liverpool fans are here trying to prove they were or are the bigger/better club again. You had the best teams and manager blah blah blah. Anything that is said about Liverpool you lot try to big yourselves up and United fans are just trying to diminish your achievements. No surprise you have all resorted to bringing your distant past up again to prove yourselves worthy. When will you lot learn? The Champions League is obviously a lot harder to win than the European Cup was, its not even debatable.
You lot make me laugh how you now think you have made it and are only going to get better and United are finished and can only stagnate or get worse. I have never met a Liverpool fan that you can have a decent debate with about Liverpool without them getting all defensive about it because i am a United fan and only saying things because its Liverpool. There has to be 1 or 2 or you out there somewhere though, surely?
Well it's been all shining light most of the season but now the wheels are off, were cast back to a time when tashes and man perms once existed, there's actually been some good debates flying about when they were flying but now they've finally hit the wall it's gone out the window. Liverpool can reflect on their best Premier league season to date whatever the outcome of tomorrow, but rather than focus on tomorrow Bob fecking Paisley has cropped up
I'm happy to keep it this season.Well it's been all shining light most of the season but now the wheels are off, were cast back to a time when tashes and man perms once existed, there's actually been some good debates flying about when they were flying but now they've finally hit the wall it's gone out the window. Liverpool can reflect on their best Premier league season to date whatever the outcome of tomorrow, but rather than focus on tomorrow Bob fecking Paisley has cropped up
Liverpool have had an outstanding season, led by a manager who has excelled with his squad, ahead of schedule, have best player in the league and a set of players who haven't peaked yet...discuss.
Platini was a free signing.
Dalglish was signed for a British record fee of £440,000 in '77. Lawrenson was more than double that a couple of years later. Not saying other teams didn't spend but it was hardly a David vs. Goliath case.
Fair comment.
Because all those teams couldn't be in the competition at the same time. That nobody can dominate Europe in the way it used to be possible is evidence of greater difficulty.
My point was that Liverpool weren't the only big team in it yet dominated the competition with the other big sides failing to do so.
The point is, Liverpool's achievements (4 wins in 7 years) is pretty phenomenal regardless of the era. Using a modern context to undermine such a record is small time in my opinion.
The sale of Kevin Keegan funded the purchase of Dalglish, & we still ended up with a decent profit. Liverpool generally did make one big money signing per season, but we also had an excellent scouting system that picked up the likes of Keegan, Heighway, Clemence, Neal, & Case. It was our scouting system that formed the foundations for Paisley to achieve what he did. The likes of Barca, Real Madrid, & co were still about back then, & still buying big, but they couldn't hold a candle to Paisley's Liverpool side/s
Somebody else made the comparison between Liverpool's achievements in the competition and Utd's, not me. If the comparison is to be made then you have to point out it's more difficult now.
The best of the rest would compete in the old UEFA Cup. & guess what ? Paisley won that the year before he won us our first European Cup in 1977.
Ah back to old 'five times' conversation. I love it
But European football wasn't equivalent to what it is now, as in dominated by an elitist cartel. In a relatively egalitarian environment Liverpool rose to the top. That, in itself, cannot he said of today's football. However current teams can only compete in the environment they exist in, just like then.
And you actually 'need' to know how to win the premier league.
You are missing the point.
What's your point? All the best teams still didn't play in the same competition. The Champions League is now a combination of those trophies and more of the best. It's not even disputable the competition is more difficult to win. The proof is in the pudding.
I know it's not equivalent so you can't compare Paisley's record to Ferguson's in a more difficult era. That's the entire point that is being made.
Paisley, as outstanding as he was, was fortunate to come along at a time when English sides dominated the competiton and when the competition was weaker than it is now. Also at a time when there wasn't another great side like the Barcelona Ferguson had to deal with. Tony Barton won the European Cup with Aston Villa. I'm pretty sure if Ferguson was around in that period he'd have done alright.
If you think the old European cup was tougher back then for a great manager with a great team, then you're kidding yourself.
And let's not forget Shankley built the club and not Paisley. Ferguson did a Shankley and followed it up with unrivalled success, for a lot longer, through different era's.
My point is that Paisley won the competition that had those teams in it who were not champions of their respective countries, but finished in the top 2,3, or 4 (UEFA Cup). Then 12 months later he won the competition that only had the champions taking part. Therefore, he's not just seen off the best, but also the best of the rest.
So let me ask you this. Had the CL format been in place during Paisley's era, how would that have hindered him in achieving what he did ?
Does that really need explaining?
That was Shankly's doing wasn't it? I certainly don't want to denigrate was Paisley achieved but if it wasn't for Bill Shankly's genius. Liverpool got it right though with the "boot room" method of promoting managers. It served them well right up until the end of Dalglish's first spell in charge.
They've done an excellent job to be fair but I don't know if it will mean sustained challenging or be a flash in the pan. I've heard from a lot of Pool fans that we will struggle to get top 4 and Liverpool will continue to advance. For me it is hearsay right now as I could just as easily see us back fighting for the title and Liverpool back in 4th place struggle or even see both sides up near the top.
I think Rodgers has been fantastic and if I could access my newbie posts from his first season it would show that I believed he was moving Liverpool in the right direction. Obviously they have had the luxury of Suarez and especially Sturridge providing performances that many wouldn't have believed possible. If I were a Pool fan I'd be proud of this season regardless of what happens tomorrow.
It's funny though because both sets of fans seem incapable of giving credit to the other side. As I have said there is no talk of this being a flash in the pan for Liverpool while their fans are so sure that we are now a fully fallen force. Whereas our fans refuse to believe Liverpool may be on the rise and refuse to accept we may be a spent force. It's sad because we mostly fail to keep our emotions in check and it becomes hard to have reasonable discussion.
My 2 cents are that Liverpool have a set of players who if they maintain form and others reach their potential they will be a real force again with the right signings. On the flip side I also believe we have a fair few players who can grow in ability (Jones, Rafael etc), players who have more than they have shown this year (RVP, Rooney, Mata etc) and with the right manager and signings we will be back up there. Who knows what will truly happen, until it does it's all guesswork (most of which is shrouded by our rivalry and hatred for each others teams).
What I want to see is Liverpool get better and United to rise again so we can see a real footballing rivalry, not one based on history. I'm sick of City's millions and Jose's bullshit.
If you can't understand the simple fact that all the best teams now play in the same competition at the same time from what I've already said then you never will. Chelsea did the exact same recently. Is that proof of how they were the best in Europe?
The rivalry would be immense if they could sustain this form next season but I don't see them doing it to be honest. Chelsea and us should be stronger next season and that's who I reckon will fight it out for the title. 08/09 was one of my favourite wins because we beat Liverpool but obviously I would be just as happy seeing them go back to their normal 6th/7th position and let them go back to their history books for comfort
You keep bleating on about it being small time, yet its all you lot go about for the last 20+ years trying to prove to everyone you are still the best. Dont you think that is small time?
You haven't had a single rocky spell all season, each and every season often carries a blip along the way City haven't had it all their way with losses to players in key areas Yaya and certainly Aguero is just as important as Suarez has been to you, he is their magic ingredient and has missed a good chunk this season. Suarez was banned whilst Sturridge was on fire and similarly Suarez was on fire whilst Sturridge was injured. It's been a near perfect season with regards to slices of luck, refereeing decisions and most importantly injuries and form for Liverpool, a lot of it the manager can be credited with especially Liverpoools season arc, starting off feeling their way into the season, even parking the bus back at Anfield against a poor United side and sneaking the win, wasn't there also some tinkering with 4 CB's ? But Rodgers and Liverpool have managed to maintain a steady upward season arc and perhaps that has finally held them back from winning the title, had Rodgers employed a similar tactic as he proved worked against a lackluster defensive top side (AKA Moyeschester United) then perhaps the Chelsea results is a different one and the upward arc could have continued all the way to the title. Liverpool found that rocky spell at what you might call a very inopportune moment but as we get down into squeaky bum time the slips come more often (pun intended), luckily for Liverpool squeaky bum time has not ran it's course just yet.
I feel that Rodgers will be looking at some of the decisions towards the end and have no doubt he will have learned a great deal from them whatever the outcome turns out to be, learning from your mistakes shows character.
Moving into next season I can see him trialling some more defensive approaches early on and settling in his new defender(s) quite quickly as the tests will come thick and fast, there will be CL qualification to assess fairly quickly whilst trying to find a better balance between defense and attack in order to be better served towards the business end. Transition may very well be the seasons key words, the defense needs a lot of work and a change in personnel, the current lads simply aren't good enough for the next level and will battered in Europe, I actually think your a couple of CB's short and Johnson is clearly better served going forwards. Midfield will need bolstering too to allow for the extra weight of games, Gerrards body will not cope and the extra fixtures will tighten up more muscles in the squad generally.
It's going to be very interesting, your rise and our fall may be reversed just as quickly as it arrived with United bedding in a new (hopefully) top class manager and Rogers bedding in a new bolstered squad whilst heading into the unknown with Europe's elite right off the bat. I am prepared for a season out of Europe and if a positive is to be taken from Moyes tenure it's that it's identified key weaknesses within the United squad and also shown the power that the manager and his training staff wield when you look at how far Liverpool have gone and also a poor Chelsea too. Van Gaal was not my top pick but seeing his record and actually paying attention to it gives a fan great hope for the future, United's demise may not be as simple as some lads are thinking it is
Mistakes have been made this year on United's part and "we" can only hope they wont be repeated and the bad will be lanced in order to make way for new blood, the benefit being that United can actually lose a good bit of dead weight this Summer without needing to bring the same amount back in, it will allow the rebuild to happen slowly with largely the same core of players we have already. Liverpool's job this Summer might smell a bit like Spurs last year.
From what I've read, I personally rate Shankley ahead of Paisley. But then I'm far from a Liverpool expert. Just seems like an absolute giant of a man and a genius of a manager.
Ferguson didn't do a Shankly with you lot. We were in a far worse state when he took over.
Take any nine year period of Ferguson's career and compare it with Bob's - there's only one winner.
Daglish, Shankly, Lawro, Heighway, Clemence and many many more great players from the LiverPools era ...... Welcome back you daft mob of scouse twats
1999 - 2008? Ferguson wins.
Thats a funny word you pool fans always use. "Nine" ...9 years. Why that number? Just cos it suits Paisley. Ferguson stayed at the top for far, far longer and that counts for hell of a lot. It's like saying take Kevin Keegan's 2 years at Newcastle and compare it to Wenger. It's an absolute bollocks arguement. Let's also apply that to players. Take Robert Pires best 3 years compared to Giggs and it's close. Look at the bigger picture though and Giggs has clearly been the better player.
As for Shankley, yes you were in Div2 and he built the club but Ferguson took over Utd when we were in the relegation zone, he took a wage cut to join us (to show we were nowhere near the financial power we are now) and completely re-built the club from top to bottom. Whether one building job was better than the other we could debate forever but the point is, Fergie build Utd into what they are today, just as Shankley built Liverpool into the force they became, and Bob benefited from that.
No he doesn't.
What? Paisley was in charge for nine years, that's why.
It's blatant who's rebuilding job was harder. The same way you wouldn't debate that his was harder than Clough.
You continue to ignore the fact that Paisley benefits from Shankley's brilliant work. You can't just say 9 years when Ferguson managed to stay at the top for 20 plus years.
If you could combine Shankley and Paisley, I'd admit hands down that is a better manager than Ferguson. But Fergie did something both did. He also did a Clough, with Aberdeen, in the way he got a side to successfully punch above their weight in a leage format and also in Europe. (Loosely speaking of course)