I tip my hat to you, sirSo what you're saying is that you actually want more Liverpool threads? Interesting...
.Liverpool
- Thread starter Sally Cinnamon
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
.In the football forum, in the liverpool thread on a united board. I see nothing weird about that at all.
You're not really making any points that haven't already been answered. It's now just a bitter and delusional diatribe against a manager you despise. I've laid out my points, unclouded by the the same vitriol you hold for our manager, and you have failed to produce any coherent argument.
The argument has kind of lost track. The original debate was over whether you can compare cross-era achievements between two vastly different competitions in terms of difficulty. I feel that was long since settled (kudos to Alex99 for the stats which proved beyond doubt what we already knew), and this has now turned into you taking out some of that 20-year Ferguson-induced impotent rage. Such is how you choose to spend many hours of your life here.
By all means, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better.
I'm not quite sure what part of - 'Ferguson was a truly great manager' - you didn't quite understand from my earlier post. Or the numerous times I'd referred to him as 'the greatest manager in the world' on here when he was in charge at OT. Not the sort of things a bitter & delusional individual would say about someone he's supposed to despise.
I do agree about the loss of track though. But I had to smile at the European ban now being used as some sort of excuse. You'd obviously forgotten that in the first year back in Europe for English clubs United won the European Cup Winners Cup, beating Barcelona (of all teams) in the final. & even if the 5 year exclusion did have an impact, it doesn't explain why your side failed to progress in the 92/93 UEFA Cup (knocked out first round by Torpedo Moscow). The 93/94 CL (knocked out 2nd round by Galatasaray). The 94/95 CL (failed to get out of a group containing Gothenburg, Barca, & Galatasaray). The 95/96 UEFA Cup (knocked out 2nd round by Rotor Volgograd).
In 1988 Liverpool won the title, scoring 87 goals in the process, from 40 games. This is pretty much the same team you tried to ridicule with your little 3 second gif. 5 years later, United won their first title in 26 years by scoring just 67 goals in 42 matches. If I'm not mistaken, that's the lowest goals per-game ratio ever by the PL champions. Yet you actually believe that this United side, & the one that followed for the next few years, was a truly great one. Whereas our football however was something belonging to the stone-age. Even taking into account the natural polarised view-point of a United & Liverpool supporter, can you honestly not see the major flaw in your way of thinking here ?
Ferguson was the right man, at the right place, at the right time. He took advantage of the void that was left after the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, & Everton, started their decline. & fair play to him, the foothold he got on the English game became a strangle-hold for virtually 20 years. However, the foothold he got in Europe in 1999 when he won his first CL never really materialised into anything more. That was a really great side. & If someone like me thought they'd go on to winning a few more, then I'm sure as hell that people like you, & most other United supporters, would have thought likewise. It's unbelievable to think that Liverpool (twice), & Arsenal, would reach successive CL finals before Fergie's United did in 2008. In fact I seem to recall that it was around 2005 that this stuff about the CL being more difficult to win than the old European Cup started to manifest itself. I suspect had United gone on to fulfil their destiny, & won a couple more, the way they really should have done, then this argument would never have seen the light of day. So just remember, it was United fans who started this European Cup v Champions League debate. I'm merely putting some alternative opinions on here. Doesn't mean to say I'm right or wrong. & it most certainly doesn't mean I'm disrespecting the most successful manager of all time.
I thought only Arsenal and us considered CL a good season/accomplishment?
Holy crap! So, he's the master of that competition.
I'm not saying that.
Just saying how impressive he was. 20 appearances while guiding the same club, and getting there by the virtue of being a champion of England most of the times. 2 wins, 2 more finals, 3 more semifinals if I'm not mistaken...
Impressive as hell.
Kolo has caught malaria. Hopefully he makes a quick recovery.
I was sure he had it years ago. The reports seem to suggest he only just caught it though, rather than it being a recurrence.
They've put in a £25m bid for Lallana. Madness. Shaping up to be a very poor summer for Liverpool - seemingly 'obvious' signings at high prices for limited quality.
Lallana is a very good player. We're slightly over paying, but it's that or face a disastrous summer like the last one. Who else are we over paying for? Which of our supposed targets lack quality?
Lambert and Lallana combined for £30m is a hell of a lot. Lallana clearly the better player but we're talking good PL players here. It's like United buying Ashley Young for £19m. It's not like he's an awful player but it's just pointless.
Are people just going to compare every English player that isn't under 21 to Downing and Young?
Yes.
On this occasion, it's a very apt comparison, if I do say so myself.
A player who has had a couple of really good seasons at a mid-table club and everyone says he should move upwards. I'm not saying Lallana will go the same way as Young, but there's little different in their form before joining a top club.
I just feel for £25m Liverpool could do much better. This transfer policy strikes me as being very much 'Southampton did well last year and their players are attainable - let's go after them.'
There's little creativity or forethought on show here.
I for one, am happy. All of the back five are potentially liabilities and they're spunking £30m on the forward positions where they've got SAS, Coutinho, Sterling etc.
£25m is apparently our last offer. I have to admit, I'd be disappointed if we didn't sign him. He's a very good player that would slot in perfectly.
It's still May and you are already asking why we're not lookimg at defenders? We're apparently about to sign Moreno, a left back. We're also being linked with Lovren too as well as Can.
I don't think he's as good a match as you think he'll be, he doesn't have the pace like your other forwards.
Not all of our players have pace. I wouldn't say Coutinho or Suarez are pacey players for instance, but both excel in our system. Lallana won't be playing as a forward either.
It's principally because Lallana isn't as good as Coutinho, who they bought for half the price.
Lallana is comfortably ahead of Coutinho. Coutinho will be betyer you would think, but Lallana is better by a distance as things stand.
We've got no cover for them if they get injured, depth, depth depth is what we need. The Defence isn't going to get overlooked. It's a priority, were just getting these home based signings over the line before they depart to the WC. We've already bid for Moreno and we'll buy a centre half. Clubs are going to look at players in the WC, so I don't see the need for rushing in.
Lallana is much more consistent in possession, whilst still maintaining a decent amount of creativity, which I think could be key in how the team will approach different scenarios, i.e. Coutinnho would start if a more direct approach was required, or Lallana and Allen would start together if the team needed to tr and keep more possession.
He's not worth near £25m obviously, but if they think he's going to be that important then they may as well spend it.
For those who are saying Lallana, is not worth 25m, who is a comparable player?, that can be be bought for less? And for those who say Coutinho, Coutinho was not a first team player at Inter at the time.
Imo, 25m is probably his max or just above his max value, but it not a outrageous amount in todays market.
Imo, 25m is probably his max or just above his max value, but it not a outrageous amount in todays market.
Last edited:
Ben Smith @BenSmithBBC · 3m
Brendan Rodgers also hopeful of signing Alberto Moreno, Dejan Lovren and Emre Can in the next fortnight
Brendan Rodgers also hopeful of signing Alberto Moreno, Dejan Lovren and Emre Can in the next fortnight
25m for Lallana is about the current market rate. It sounds an awful lot of money for a player of his quality but it's about the going rate for an English/domestic signing of that age or quality going on the last few seasons. The only things that tend to drive these prices down are when a player has little time left on his contract or a release clause.
Lallana is 26, not played any European football, has two successful seasons in the top flight and is an England international. He's a good player with the potential to get better.
Reminds me of the type of fee Young and Milner went for at similar ages when they had good club careers for their respective clubs and is the current way of the market. Not to dissimilar to the Fellaini signing either IMO, although we could have got him for less due to his release clause.
Shows that while 25m sounds a huge transfer fee it rarely buys you a proven top class player domestically, at least for midfielders and forwarders, nowadays unless there are strong mitigating circumstances such as the RVP signing when his contract was running down.
While I was never a fan of the phrase, shows there was something in what Fergie was saying about value in the market.
You can get some better bargains buy going abroad but even then unless a player's contract is running down or there is a release clause, the trend seems to be that transfer fees are rising and buying lesser quality. Carvalho was being quoted at 30m this summer and despite having a very good season, that was his first full season as a regular in the Portugese top flight.
Also shows how the worth of being prepared to spend that bit more. For me, Mata is a far better player than Lallana, Young, Milner or Fellaini and we only had to spend approximately an extra 10m to get him.
Lallana is 26, not played any European football, has two successful seasons in the top flight and is an England international. He's a good player with the potential to get better.
Reminds me of the type of fee Young and Milner went for at similar ages when they had good club careers for their respective clubs and is the current way of the market. Not to dissimilar to the Fellaini signing either IMO, although we could have got him for less due to his release clause.
Shows that while 25m sounds a huge transfer fee it rarely buys you a proven top class player domestically, at least for midfielders and forwarders, nowadays unless there are strong mitigating circumstances such as the RVP signing when his contract was running down.
While I was never a fan of the phrase, shows there was something in what Fergie was saying about value in the market.
You can get some better bargains buy going abroad but even then unless a player's contract is running down or there is a release clause, the trend seems to be that transfer fees are rising and buying lesser quality. Carvalho was being quoted at 30m this summer and despite having a very good season, that was his first full season as a regular in the Portugese top flight.
Also shows how the worth of being prepared to spend that bit more. For me, Mata is a far better player than Lallana, Young, Milner or Fellaini and we only had to spend approximately an extra 10m to get him.
Very different transfers though. Coutinho was out of favour when Liverpool signed him and hence he was picked up for a much better price as Inter wanted to sell him.
Same with Sturridge. Chelsea wanted to sell and the player wanted to leave.
Lallana is one of Southampton's best players and if Liverpool or any club want him, they are going to have to pay the current market rate, which is not far off what LFC have bid.
I don't agree with it myself but it's certainly the way the transfer market has gone in the last few years and clubs that want to strengthen are stuck with that predicament.
Last edited:
I really don't see what Young has to do with Lallana.
Even when Young was at his best at Villa, he wasn't consistent with the ball at his feet. He had flashes of brilliance (more so than Lallana), but his control, passing, tight dribbling, vision were never consistent like Lallana's.
Young's flashes of brilliance quickly disappeared after joining us, and the fact that he lacked consistency with the basics meant he became useless.
Lallana will be fine. They're definitely overpaying, but he's nothing like Young.
He carries the ball very well at pace, and he's more robust than Coutinho.
Coutinho looks to play the final more often, but Lallana is better at fending off challenges and keeping possession.
Rodgers obviously trusts in the players who did him well last year, and is more focused on being able to give them rests and rotate with the extra games. Whether he'd have been better off going for one or two big names to seriously improve his first team instead will only become apparent this time next year.
Even when Young was at his best at Villa, he wasn't consistent with the ball at his feet. He had flashes of brilliance (more so than Lallana), but his control, passing, tight dribbling, vision were never consistent like Lallana's.
Young's flashes of brilliance quickly disappeared after joining us, and the fact that he lacked consistency with the basics meant he became useless.
Lallana will be fine. They're definitely overpaying, but he's nothing like Young.
He carries the ball very well at pace, and he's more robust than Coutinho.
Coutinho looks to play the final more often, but Lallana is better at fending off challenges and keeping possession.
Rodgers obviously trusts in the players who did him well last year, and is more focused on being able to give them rests and rotate with the extra games. Whether he'd have been better off going for one or two big names to seriously improve his first team instead will only become apparent this time next year.
Last edited:
Your backhanded compliments don't disguise the clear bitterness you hold towards Ferguson. Let's be honest, it's not just this thread. You've dedicated a not insignificant amount of your life to spending time on a United forum trying to undermine the manager who has presided over and largely been responsible for your worst years as a football fan. It's what you do - for whatever reason, only you probably know. A strange sort of therapy perhaps.
It's nice you can smile about the European ban and not believe it didn't have any impact on English football. 5 years outside of European football was devastating, whatever way you want to spin it. It's pretty similar to what we're seeing with Italian teams now in the wake of their Calciopoli scandal, except for us it was a hell of a lot worse seeing as they are still (just about) competing in European competition.
I didn't say your football belonged in the stone age. I said it was of its time, which is entirely correct. I never denied it was effective and I said from the outset that I'm well aware you won lots games and won them convincingly. The point you seem to be getting annoyed about is that Liverpool under Paisley were rarely lauded for their style, didn't capture the public's imagination, and were successful at a time when negativity and ball cycling between the goalkeeper and defence were very effective tactics for winning. This was soon stamped out, rendering these tactics that Liverpool used so effectively obsolete. There is nothing wrong with stating this. The football was of its time, but hugely effective and successful all the same.
We can go round cherry picking seasons again 'oooh you didn't score many that season', but if you want to suggest that Ferguson's sides weren't for the most part very entertaining or didn't capture the public's imagination then go ahead. It wouldn't be any less daft than much else of what you've said! And if we're going by goals scored as a measure of a team's ability to enthral and entertain, then that would make Chelsea 2009/10 the greatest entertainers in league history - likely story.
I've already said at the turn of the century United were well placed to win another title. Despite spending colossal amounts of money, Real Madrid hadn't made a final in 12 years until this season. It happens, such is the nature of the competition. We certainly weren't alone and in that context, 9 years between finals isn't too shocking. Fair play to Liverpool for making 2 finals, but it came at the cost of completely abandoning the league, a scenario that would not have been tolerated under Ferguson. Nevertheless, if this thread has changed my opinion on anything it's the scale of the achievement of your '05 win. Alex99's post showing you played more top 8 league teams in that campaign alone than in all of your previous 4 winning campaigns combined is remarkable. So there you go - you won't catch me saying it was lucky again, even if I still think your football was brutal and the win is caveated by your league performance.
If you think it's only now that people are catching on to how much easier the old European Cup was then you're deluded. People had been saying it about Real Madrid's early wins for decades, and the disparity in difficulty between their wins and yours of the 70's/80's is nowhere near as big as the disparity between the CL and those of the 70's/80's. The debate has always been there, it's probably only really come to the fore because of Liverpool fans trying to equate the achievements, as a stick to beat Fergie. Which was the original point we got side-tracked from.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...er-United-match-Liverpools-European-Cups.html
Stop posting irrelevant drivel Krafty. I'm simply agreeing with the great man himself. United should have done better given the amount of opportunities he had. Take it up with Fergie if you disagree.
Stop posting irrelevant drivel Krafty. I'm simply agreeing with the great man himself. United should have done better given the amount of opportunities he had. Take it up with Fergie if you disagree.
So Liverpool are going to spend £30m on Lallana and Lambert? Fine by me. I'd wager that that's half their budget gone.
Even funnier when Cesc has rumoured to have a 30m buyout clause.
Because fabregas will join them if they evoke the clause?
No because there paying the same price for Lallana and Lambert for what one of the best midfielders in the world is going for and i don't see no harm in them bidding for him anyway he can only say no.
Its not the same as asking a girl out.Wonder if they should bid for ronaldo,messi and bale as well, I mean whats the harm. A little rejection never hurt anyone.
No football and this thread turns into some kind of revisionist history lesson about whose European Cups are bestest.
At least keep it contemporary...I'm enjoying the dismissal of Liverpool's transfer dealings as it ties with the overwhelming crystal ball narrative that Liverpool are a one season wonder to be exposed by the brilliance of all the other top English and a European teams next year.
The fight for 7th returns...
At least keep it contemporary...I'm enjoying the dismissal of Liverpool's transfer dealings as it ties with the overwhelming crystal ball narrative that Liverpool are a one season wonder to be exposed by the brilliance of all the other top English and a European teams next year.
The fight for 7th returns...
We paid 18 million for Carrick (who was albeit more proven than Lallana at the time) so 25 million for Lallana would not be such a stretch considering prices have escalated since then.
Get off your high horse.
I am just curious as to who Lallana will replace at Liverpool. Does this also mean the end of Suso? And is Lambert good enough to replace Suarez or Sturridge should they get injured?
I don't think Rodgers has got the priorities rightthis summer. He will be spending majority of his transfer fees in a position he is best stocked with and filling most important voids (defence and a back up forward) with left over scraps.
I don't think Rodgers has got the priorities rightthis summer. He will be spending majority of his transfer fees in a position he is best stocked with and filling most important voids (defence and a back up forward) with left over scraps.
It's still May. Talk of priorities is a bit premature. As for the majority of transfer fees, Liverpool have around £60m to spend before sales. However, Aspas, Alberto, Agger and Assaidi (only selling players starting with the letter "A") will likely be sold. That'll bring in added funds.
As for Rodgers' priorities, essentially it's about growing the squad. Lambert and Borini will come in to back-up the two main guys. Lallana is probably regarded as ideal to fit into Liverpool's style, arguably a more consistent player than Coutinho. A full back, centre back, defensive midfielder and reserve keeper are all needed as well.
Lots of business to get done before September.
I reckon in addition to the positions you've listed we could be in for a winger too. I really hope we manage to get Lallana done soon. I am really looking forward to seeing him play for us.
Tony Barrett has said we value Borini at £12m. Wpuld you take that for him? I probably would.