Long-Standing Issues Coming Home To Roost

Buchan

has whacked the hammer to Roswell
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Jun 5, 2012
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Moyes will get a flak this season (some of it justified) but the notion he's to blame for our somewhat average style of football is ludicrous. Pretty much all of the problems we've seen this season have been developing over the past two or three years and I feel Moyes has been dealt a shitty hand if I'm being honest.

The lack of a midfield is a monumental problem since the halcyon days of those Champions League Finals, our left-back issue hasn't been addressed with the same length of time and our style of play is too reliant on wingers, and our wingers haven't collectively fired since 2011.

If Moyes sorts this mess out and gets us competitive again, he'll have done a superlative job. The raw ingredients are there, we just need to cast out the non-performers and get some new personnel in, particularly creative midfielders and adequate cover for our full-backs.
 
As I said in the post match thread, the clinical finishing of RVP hid a multitude of sins last season.
And yes, a lot of those sins have been building up for a long time.

But it's going to take a lot of transfers to address all the issues. January is a bad time for transfers, but I think at least LB need to be addressed in this window. It's ridiculous to push Evra at his age.
Midfield will probably have to wait till the summer.
But I think RB will need to be looked at as well. Rafael is too fragile.

And of course Hernandez will need to be replaced.

So it's a long long list.
 
the most hilarious aspect is our midfield. Can't believe that between 2006 and 2013 we purchased 3 players - one of whom has been excellent, one has been dire and the last one is fat.

Can"t take Fergie's word there was no value out there.
 
We haven't played well or a particularly attractive/attacking brand of football for a few years but Fergie was a winner. He just knew how to get the job done.

Yes, the first team has a few issues but it's still the same one as last season. Whilst Moyes inherited a lot of problems he still inherited the champions. The weak squad has been overplayed if you ask me.
 
Sunny Jim said:
the most hilarious aspect is our midfield. Can't believe that between 2006 and 2013 we purchased 3 players - one of whom has been excellent, one has been dire and the last one is fat.

Can"t take Fergie's word there was no value out there.
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You could add Hargreaves too no as I assume the dire one is Fellaini ?
 
The blame that he is getting is for not sorting out these problems. That's his job after all. He did nothing to sort out the midfield in the summer (buying Fellaini really counts as nothing). To be fair, Tottenham are in the same kind of problems having done the opposite with buying every midfielder they could put their hands on but they are still slightly better than us.
The full backs. As much of a problem for Moyes as the midfield. He's not handled it well. Left it far too late to get a left back in the window and so he's made due to Evra who really looks like he's finished. Most other teams would have benched him by now. Moyes could do that (not with Büttner of course) and put on Fabio. In fact, Fabio can play right back as well but he doesn't get a single chance. Why? No one knows. There's not really a good reason for it imo because frankly, he can't be any worse than Evra or Smalling or Valencia.

The team is so rigid. If a team defense tightly against us the only thing they'll have to worry about are set pieces. That's what we've turned into now. Set pieces are our main goal threat.

This season has been very pathetic. You say it's been building up for a long time. Well, Moyes has only made it come too light. He hasn't prevented it. After today he's further away from 4th place again. The fact that Everton are still ahead counts massively against him. They weren't picture perfect before the season started. Martinez simply made them tighter at the back and made some great signings for them. That's really the key difference between the two teams.
 
Carl said:
We haven't played well or a particularly attractive/attacking brand of football for a few years but Fergie was a winner. He just knew how to get the job done.

Yes, the first team has a few issues but it's still the same one as last season. Whilst Moyes inherited a lot of problems he still inherited the champions. The weak squad has been overplayed if you ask me.
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Fergie bought RVP. RVP had an amazing season, finishing the types of chances we kept missing today. If he was doing that this season then United would be near the top. But he's nearly 30 and always been injury prone.

That's the main difference with last season. But the decay of aging players in the squad is not helping...
 
It's been in the post for years. every football fan that doesn't support United has said it for a while. We may have won the league last year but there were times we were really shocking. I'm behind Moyes and the club regardless but I really don't see top 4 based on the first half of the season.
We were really poor today.
 
I see a lot of posters here comparing our squad favourably to the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. The truth is we have a poor squad. A lot of our players are midtable and lower standard. We won the title with them and Moyes has made some poor decisions tactically and in the close season window but Fergie left him a poor squad. Moyes should start a clear out in this window and then try to bring in someone. If noone is available he could bring back Lingard and Powell. I just don't see how they could do worse than the likes of Nani, Valencia, Young, Anderson, Cleverly,Fellaini. It's important he start stamping his authority now.
 
mic.m said:
I see a lot of posters here comparing our squad favourably to the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. The truth is we have a poor squad. A lot of our players are midtable and lower standard. We won the title with them and Moyes has made some poor decisions tactically and in the close season window but Fergie left him a poor squad. Moyes should start a clear out in this window and then try to bring in someone. If noone is available he could bring back Lingard and Powell. I just don't see how they could do worse than the likes of Nani, Valencia, Young, Anderson, Cleverly,Fellaini. It's important he start stamping his authority now.
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How can it be a "poor squad" if you won the league with it last season? Moyes has set you back and the sooner your owners accept he is not the answer, the better off you will be. When teams come to ot that haven't won there in modern times all of a sudden start winning, that's when you know you have serious problems. There is no fear anymore, and more teams are going there looking for good results. It's Moyes.
 
njred said:
How can it be a "poor squad" if you won the league with it last season? Moyes has set you back and the sooner your owners accept he is not the answer, the better off you will be. When teams come to ot that haven't won there in modern times all of a sudden start winning, that's when you know you have serious problems. There is no fear anymore, and more teams are going there looking for good results. It's Moyes.
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It's 'not Ferguson' more so than it being Moyes. It's pretty simple. When you lose the greatest manager in the history of football you'll see a drop of. You of all people should understand that.
 
njred said:
How can it be a "poor squad" if you won the league with it last season? Moyes has set you back and the sooner your owners accept he is not the answer, the better off you will be. When teams come to ot that haven't won there in modern times all of a sudden start winning, that's when you know you have serious problems. There is no fear anymore, and more teams are going there looking for good results. It's Moyes.
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Agree with this though it won't happen. We only have to look at Liverpool's hasty dismissal of Hodgson to see their pretty quick turnaround in fortunes. In a dream world we bring back Fergie for the rest of the season to steady the ship and then bring in a world class manager in the summer, but it's never happening. I think Moyes could be sacked if he doesn't get top 4, or at the very least show signs the team is improving under him.
 
When Rafael is missing we have a serious problem on the right, he is more of a menace to the oppositions defense than Valencia who is very one dimensional. We have no decent attacking options in midfield, due to the fact we never really replaced Scholes. Ashley Young is not good enough to be a United player and I have serious doubts over Cleverley also, he really has not stepped up to our level. We are beginning to look like a team in decline.
 
Pretty sure Fergie admitted in his book that Rooney was unhappy with the squad in 2010 and wanted us to sign Ozil..... Rooney went asbput things the wrong way but you have to wonder

With the age of the squad and with 4\5 good signings over the coming windows we could be right back up there
 
The Neviller said:
It's 'not Ferguson' more so than it being Moyes. It's pretty simple. When you lose the greatest manager in the history of football you'll see a drop of. You of all people should understand that.
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I think we all agree with that but it's the rate in which we gave dropped, from being champions to floating around mid table all season isn't right. Third place would be an acceptable drop off and I'd understand the circumstances for that but this is beyond ridiculous.
 
Agree that these problems have been coming for a long time. It's not like our weak midfield and general declining quality hadn't been pointed out over the last few seasons.

Personally, I think it simply comes down to us failing to invest in the squad sufficiently. If you keep spending like a 5th place team you'll eventually turn into a 5th place team. That's not even mentioning our failure to reinvest the Ronaldo money. What were we expecting?
 
buckooo1978 said:
Pretty sure Fergie admitted in his book that Rooney was unhappy with the squad in 2010 and wanted us to sign Ozil..... Rooney went asbput things the wrong way but you have to wonder

With the age of the squad and with 4\5 good signings over the coming windows we could be right back up there
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I'm not sure its just a matter of signings, its also down to the manager and does he know what style of football he wants to play. We have a lot of good players, we are short a couple. We are now entering the critical phase of the transition.
 
We were in far worse shape in 2004/05 and then we embarked on the most successful period in our club's history. It won't take a huge effort to turn our fortunes around, but we're going to have to bite the bullet in the transfer market. No use in pussy-footing around over a meagre £5 million - if that player is what we require, we need to go ahead and get the deal done.
 
The Neviller said:
It's 'not Ferguson' more so than it being Moyes. It's pretty simple. When you lose the greatest manager in the history of football you'll see a drop of. You of all people should understand that.
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Agreed. Moyes hasn't helped himself with some of the things he's said and done, but I agree that a noticeable decline was inevitable. That's not to say other managers couldn't do better, I'm sure some could.
 
sullydnl said:
If you keep spending like a 5th place team you'll eventually turn into a 5th place team. That's not even mentioning our failure to reinvest the Ronaldo money. What were we expecting?
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Sure there was "no value in the market".
 
nahealai said:
We were in far worse shape in 2004/05 and then we embarked on the most successful period in our club's history. It won't take a huge effort to turn our fortunes around, but we're going to have to bite the bullet in the transfer market. No use in pussy-footing around over a meagre £5 million - if that player is what we require, we need to go ahead and get the deal done.
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It was a bit different then in you did t have a young Ronaldo coming into his own.
 
BarneyLFC said:
It was a bit different then in you did t have a young Ronaldo coming into his own.
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In fairness, Januzaj looks a hell of a prospect. Every bit as promising as Ronaldo at 18. If anything, at the same stage of development, Januzaj seems more well-rounded.
 
Feed Me said:
In fairness, Januzaj looks a hell of a prospect. Every bit as promising as Ronaldo at 18. If anything, at the same stage of development, Januzaj seems more well-rounded.
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He looks excellent, aye. I'd be shocked if he ever went on to be as good as Ronaldo and that's not an insult to him.
 
BarneyLFC said:
That's a huge call to make after a dozen good performances.
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He is a special talent. Hugely-prodigious, and at just 18, looks as though he's played in the first-team all his life.

I'm not saying that he'll ever be as good as Ronaldo, but at a similar age, Ronaldo was very inconsistent, despite the raw materials being there.
 
Pass to Valencia, cross, block, corner.
Pass to Valencia, cross, block, throw in.
Pass to Valencia, he turns, passes to Carrick or Rafael.
Pass to Valencia, cross, row z.
Pass to Valencia, takes on player, stops and lets him catch up, passes back to Rafael.

These are the glaring issues I see every single game.
 
Some players peak faster than others. It's almost impossible to judge a) what their peak is and b) when they will reach it. Januzaj is an amazing talent but how much better will he get? Ultimately you don't know. Might turn into a world beater, might have already got close to his peak.

When Ronaldo was young everyone knew he'd be great but to be as good as he has become no one would have predicted. Same with Messi. When a young player has talent you can say he could be world class but players like Ronaldo and Messi come about once ever couple of years.
 
BarneyLFC said:
He looks excellent, aye. I'd be shocked if he ever went on to be as good as Ronaldo and that's not an insult to him.
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I see where you're coming from - seeing how far Ronaldo has gone makes it difficult to predict any young player can do better; he'll go down as an all-time great.

However, Januzaj's displayed a level of consistent quality that I've never seen in a young player at United (except maybe Rooney) - he plays the game like a seasoned pro. Of course there's going to be dips, but he's just already such an intelligent player.

Point I am making is at the same stage, Ronaldo wasn't as good a player as Januzaj - this in itself is a real feather in the lad's cap. In any case, he doesn't need to surpass Ronaldo to go on and have a great career.
 
In response to the OP I'm sorry but to suggest Moyes has been dealt a shitty hand is off beat. He's inherited a very fine squad of players who as a collective are easily a top four side. Yes the midfield situation is an ongoing concern, a melodrama in itself, but he bought a midfielder this season for £27.5 million....and so far he has flopped in the most horrible way.

We have our defects like all the top sides in England have, but Moyes isn't getting the best out of this squad, not by a long way. I don't understand how he will have done a superlative job if he sorts the mess out and gets us competitive. We should be continuing to be competitive full stop.
 
Orton said:
Pass to Valencia, cross, block, corner.
Pass to Valencia, cross, block, throw in.
Pass to Valencia, he turns, passes to Carrick or Rafael.
Pass to Valencia, cross, row z.
Pass to Valencia, takes on player, stops and lets him catch up, passes back to Rafael.

These are the glaring issues I see every single game.
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And that was our 'productive' side lol

Serious lack of desire/belief/imagination - thank God for Adnan - that pass to Welbeck was sublime
 
BarneyLFC said:
He looks excellent, aye. I'd be shocked if he ever went on to be as good as Ronaldo and that's not an insult to him.
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I agree. He looks like a top prospect, one of the very best in the PL for his age without doubt. But Ronaldo is top 5 players of all-time category.

It's unfair on Januzaj to be compared to one of the very best ever.
 
I think the chickens that are coming home to roost are really the management of the clubs finances by our absentee landlords. It's been obvious for years that the Glazers are bleeding this club dry. That's why SAF talked about value in the transfer market and that's why Moyes is doing the same now. We've needed on the field investment in our midfield for almost a decade. That hasn't happened and meanwhile the game has changed with the money at other clubs. The Glazers bought the golden goose when they bought SAF's Manchester United. Now they are gambling his legacy by hoping Moyes can run the place on the same old shoestring.
 
I find it baffling that some people back Moyes on blind faith alone. Even worse is the sickening notion that Manchester United are somehow morally superior to every other club and as such should give a manager time regardless of performance. Patience is one thing, but a manager must earn it. I am not saying Moyes should leave now, but I am saying that he is being rightfully criticised, and it's unfair that seemingly everyone but Moyes is being blamed by certain posters. There are problems with the composition of our squad, yes, but there is more than enough quality to challenge for the title. Finishing in the top four should be the absolute minimum. Anything less is a pathetic display.
 
BarneyLFC said:
It was a bit different then in you did t have a young Ronaldo coming into his own.
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It's already been said, but Januzaj is our new great hope. The kid is going to be a star.

United will be fine. We've been in difficult situations before and will be again, but we'll compete. I still think we'll get top 4 anyway.
 
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