It's not just one performance though is it?
The majority of our games, we're varying levels of shite. The games where it clicks are few and far between.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It's not just one performance though is it?
The majority of our games, we're varying levels of shite. The games where it clicks are few and far between.
I am sorry, you're wrong. We have a bunch of kids along our front line, and the guy who's supposed to be our game-changing, experienced, world-class player is consistently our worst performer. We're not good enough to win anything, and van Gaal is to blame in the sense that he hasn't brought in the right players for all the money he's spent. But we certainy aren't good enough to blow teams away. I can't remember the last time we smoked anybody, home or away. That is an indictment in itself for Manchester United. It says we've got a bunch of ordinary players on massive wages playing for us. Could you stifle Messi, Neymar and Suarez with negative tactics? Even under Benitez Real Madrid score goals.
Tactically awful substitutions, and with each poor decision the doubts about van gaal increase.
With how much he has overhauled this squad, he's simply not delivering. Bizarre decisions in transfers, team selection and use of subs, the next manager can't come soon enough.
With how much he has overhauled this squad, he's simply not delivering. Bizarre decisions in transfers, team selection and use of subs, the next manager can't come soon enough.
No idea. By errors I'm assuming he's referring to positional errors. The whole idea of good possession football is to drag players out of position and exploit the gaps. We sometimes manage this, sometimes we don't. With better attacking players and a higher tempo then we can do this more often. And that's up to Van Gaal to sort out sooner rather than later. In the mean time it's all about getting good results, which we are for the most part.
Our attacking players aren't good enough to blow teams away. Not really. Our most dynamic front four ruined just about every chance they had last night.
this - we witnessed tonight a normal match under louis.
You are basically telling me that the only thing that LVG can do is buy players, why is he here then? The man can't coach the basics of football, he needs ready made footballers? He can't adjust and improve the individual positioning and technique of his players?
Cruyff might be right when he says that:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/12/johan-cruyff-louis-van-gaal-manchester-united
You started the ifs and buts my friend. We're two weeks away from that being a very realistic reality.
LVG is a menace to football. The sooner we are rid the better.
Absolute fecking shite. Again.
feck off.
feck off.
When they are being coached by a brain dead clueless idiot, then of course attacking is never good.
Keep defending. Dont lose a goal. The process, the philosophy.
yep - defend better which united are doing but we are still not scoring goals - 19 in the prem. and it's not knee jerk , because we scored - wait for - 19 this time last year with a totally different strike force (bar rooney - who played in midf) and a much different midf. one constant - LVG.
Wayne Rooney, though.
Urgh.
I never thought LVG would be this fecking cowardly. For a man that is supposedly famed for his big balls, and love of attacking football, he's doing a great job of hiding it. He's made watching United a chore. And thats a horrible feeling. We don't have to win every week, or be the best team in the land, but I at least want to look forward to matches. Look forward to an exciting 90 minutes of football. Its now just the same boring shit week in week out, win/lose or draw.
If we have a bit more talent we'll probably be able to grind out a PL title under Van Gaal, which would make him a successful appointment.
The club would then be in a good position for a Guardiola or Ancelotti calibre manager to take over and bring a more entertaining brand of football. In many ways we'd be back in the position we were in when SAF left, though hopefully with a more talented squad and having learned from the mistakes we made last time.
That change is probably only a season and a half away. We can stick with Van Gaal until then surely?
The club would then be in a good position for a Guardiola or Ancelotti calibre manager to take over and bring a more entertaining brand of football. In many ways we'd be back in the position we were in when SAF left, though hopefully with a more talented squad and having learned from the mistakes we made last time.
That change is probably only a season and a half away. We can stick with Van Gaal until then surely?
well he decide to stop the stupid short corners. For the first time in a while i noticed we actually crossed them into the box tonight. Not that it had any effect mind you.
Was watching the game with another United fan, we were prone to switching to other topics of discussion than watching the game, not the first time either this season but this has been the first season I've felt that way. Such is the chore of watching us play now.
If Guardiola is available this summer then I really hope we're buttering him up, or at the very least Ancelotti. Not really sure I can take another season of this tedious 'philosophy' of his
If Guardiola is available this summer then I really hope we're buttering him up, or at the very least Ancelotti. Not really sure I can take another season of this tedious 'philosophy' of his
I have no idea why Guadiola should be a good candidate. He's been a succesfull manager for players with loads of technical ability and intelligence. What would make him suited to manage these 'special needs' players? When he took Schweinsteiger off, there was no player who had any idea about how to get the ball forward, and when they try something, they don't have the touch and the accuracy of passing to move the ball at any pace.
I'm starting to doubt whether LvG is the one to solve the problems of this club, but his playing style shows how far United is behind clubs like Barcelona, Bayern and Atletico on technical ability and player intelligence. His playing style exposes the weakness rather than causes it.
It's really not that bad.
If the club fires LvG, isn't Ancelloti the only high profile manager available?
I never get this "only manager available" stuff with managers and big clubs (i.e. United, if Mourinho sacked Chelsea, Madrid etc.) They're some of the biggest clubs in the world. They are allowed, and can, get managers who are under contract at other clubs. They just have to pay, it's no different to signing a player...we don't only sign free transfers every year.
I'd argue except Luis Enrique at Barcelona every manager in the world would have some kind of interest in being manager of Man Utd (including Guardiola.) Not saying they'd all come but you look at it realistically and there's not many disadvantanges to the job.
I can't stand watching LVGs team, really is tedious. Any time anything decent or slightly enjoyable happens such as a last minute winner away at the weekend we have any fun and enjoyment sucked back out with the shite served up last night. Whilst football is a results business it's also an entertainment as is any sport. There's nothing worth bragging about United struggling to 1-0 wins every game or going a goal up and retaining possession and doing nothing with it. It's easy to blame the usual scapegoats such as Rooney but I reckon with a diferent manager they'd offer more than what we get now. It's a team set up not to lose which shouldn't be the way we play with the quality we have.
If we don't qualify for the CL there really is no one else to blame but LVG, people point fingers at the players but they're told to do a job which is obviously to play like we do as we play like it far to often to be a coincidence. It just doesn't work.
I think it would be interesting if we never appointed Moyes and just went straight to LVG....I wonder if he would still be in a job? We've hardly set the world a light and at best tend to perform to the minimum expectations. I think a lot of the stigma and security of LVG's job comes from the fact people will be paranoid we'll get a reputation of a sacking club. The reality is that football has evolved. Once Wenger goes I'd be surprised to see many 5+ year reigns at top clubs, equally if it wasn't for Moyes getting sacked so quickly I think far more people would want LVG out.
7 of the players in the starting line-up yesterday were bought by van Gaal, the 8th player was a youth player he promototed to the first team and the other 3 were De Gea, Smalling and Rooney. The two by far best United performers are De Gea and Smalling, both from the group of players already at the club when he took over as manager.
Surely you can't blame it on deeper problems at the club when his players are at fault for the performances, his players struggle to understand his playing style. At Barcelona and Bayern, new signings come in and very quickly find their place in the team. Not all of course, but many, maybe even most.
You can always blame it all on Rooney of course, he played yesterday.
In fairness, Smalling's development has truly accelerated under Van Gaal. Credit where it's due.
Hehe. Don't worry, we will!
Rumour goes he did. Off course it would be nice if he did captain's things like taking charge and resemble some kind of playmaker by giving direction to attacks, come up with ideas and beeing a 'dreh und angelpunkt'. But him not beeing a solution doesn't make him the problem.
What puzzles me is that they seem to understand the playing style, and then suddenly look like players who need a minute to think about what to do next. Herrera, Blind and Schweinsteiger get it, but without one or two of them, there are too few of the enlightened ones and they all look like they have no idea what they're doing. It's like they know it by head and not by heart, and when there's an urgency to score they're torn between the two and mess up their decision making on the pitch.
High profile shouldn't be the only criteria. Barca took Guardiola from their B side, Tuchel is doing very well at Dortmund after being a mid-table coach and there have been many other examples through the game.
Sadly and stupidly, we missed out on Klopp, who would have been fun as hell, but also a massive stylistic shift from Van Gaal. I really think there has to be a manager out there who won't shrink at a job this big but can expand upon the solidity and possession Van Gaal has brought us while improving the dire pressing and offensive creativity and shaky player selections. Pochettino and Unai Emery are the names that come to mind at the moment, but there must be others.
Point is, talent is talent. It's harder to find now that ultra-capitalism means Fergie at Aberdeen or Mourinho at Porto style successes don't really happen, but it can be done.
By high-profile,I dont mean in terms of been at many big clubs. Given that we do not have anyone coming on from Team B(Giggs might be too early), I doubt if we could get a low-profile (less experienced or experience only in small leagues) manager and expect him to sort stuff out.
I think credit goes to Smalling himself, even under Moyes he looked our best defender when actually playing CB, so i believe his rise to the top was bound to happen regardless of who was the manager.
If that's the idea and it works it seems strange that he abandons it so often when it isn't working to throw Fellaini on and start hitting the ball up to him.
I wasn't comfortable when he said before CSKA and PSV away that a draw would be good result and we needed to win the home games. No disrespect to those teams but we should have aimed for the 3 points and you take the draw if that's not possible. He gambled on taking 9 points at home and messed this up. We aren't going to get a win at Wolfsburg unless the mindset drastically changes.
Well yeah, that wasn't the point though. I'd say De Gea also benefits from Frans Hoek's training and has become an overall much better goalkeeper. I responded to a post which said 'I'm starting to doubt whether LvG is the one to solve the problems of this club'. That's an odd statement if the new signings or the tactics seem to be the problem, not anything related to the club itself, as proven by players developing nicely, who are longer at the club than van Gaal.
Well Van Gaal plays Rooney even when his form does not merit it, so you can add that to the critique of Van Gaal too.
I agree with your general point though, this is Van Gaal's team now and if he can't get it playing he can't blame anyone else.
As a Bayern supporter I guess you have seen all of this before.
I'd say it's not all that bad. Our defence and midfield has improved but yes, we've lost the attacking edge of the game.
wolfsburg unbeaten in 29 at home. This was a really important game and we took yet another step back and his subs didn't help either.
Many of the critisms people are firing at him are stupid and excess. Some refuse to see the progress we have made, some blame everything (even the u14 results) down to LVG and refuse to even give any credit to him. I always call them out on it, as i have done in this very thread.
but now we are in a position where we could enter the europa league and considering the group we have that is unacceptable. That would be my final straw, I pride LVG on his knowledge of European football and dont feel we should accept less than making it through to the knockout stages. LVG needs to be active in the January market because he might not make it to May if we end up in europa and these type of performances pop up every now and again. As for me, going into europa means we should actively start looking for his replacmenet come summer. If you arent going to entertain then you've got to get results
As someone said last night...
Honestly think this is the beginning of the end. He'll get to the end of the season but I think he'll be asked to retire early. I think he's losing the dressing room.
Bit poor to think it's going to happen to two managers in a row. Next one had better have real balls, as opposed to Giggs just being 'pals' with them.
Honestly think this is the beginning of the end. He'll get to the end of the season but I think he'll be asked to retire early. I think he's losing the dressing room.
Bit poor to think it's going to happen to two managers in a row. Next one had better have real balls, as opposed to Giggs just being 'pals' with them.
As I said a couple of months ago Van Gaal's biggest flaw is his inability to change a game positively. In fact I'd say that almost every single substitution he makes has a negative impact in our play. Again yesterday our only alternative to our standard, patient build up is introducing a big lump and hoofing balls up towards him.
He is also too stubborn in terms of shape. He'll bring on Fellaini for Schweinsteiger, but then Rooney drops deep to keep the same shape. He'll bring on Mata for Darmian, but then Young goes into RB and Mata replaces Young; roughly same shape different personnel. We could have easily ended up with a much more attacking team with one substitution, for instance:
___Schneiderlin
Lingard Mata Depay
__Rooney_Martial
Even if we lost as a result of pursuing a goal, it wouldn't have made a difference to us. Either way we need to beat Wolfsburg to qualify.
He is also too stubborn in terms of shape. He'll bring on Fellaini for Schweinsteiger, but then Rooney drops deep to keep the same shape. He'll bring on Mata for Darmian, but then Young goes into RB and Mata replaces Young; roughly same shape different personnel. We could have easily ended up with a much more attacking team with one substitution, for instance:
___Schneiderlin
Lingard Mata Depay
__Rooney_Martial
Even if we lost as a result of pursuing a goal, it wouldn't have made a difference to us. Either way we need to beat Wolfsburg to qualify.
The Wolfsburg game should be really interesting. Last season when we really needed a run of results (Tottenham, Pool, City) he pulled it out of the bag with 3 great performances.
Pros:
He's gotten rid of some players we needed out. He's sorted out our defense and it looks quite good, and that by playing Blind at center back which I thought would be a nightmare. He's developed a possession style which we've not had before. We are currently 2nd in the league. He kept de Gea for another season. He's turned Smalling into a world class defender.
Cons:
We are about as convincing in attack as we were under Moyes. We have too thin a squad when it comes to quality. We only seem to have one style so when it's not working we have no ideas. He shows preferential treatment to players despite lack of form. We may be knocked out of the CL in the group stages because we've been awful in Europe.
Sacking him now would be beyond stupid. But if a top quality manager is available in the summer (Pep, if he doesn't sign a new contract, or Ancelotti) would it make sense to keep van Gaal for another year? I doubt it. And let's be honest, having Giggs take over in 2017 is an enormous risk.
For his system to work he needs one or two outstanding attacking players. He's got none. Holland had Robben. His Barcelona and Bayern had top quality players. Our team may be better than what we have shown, but not that much better. We seriously lack quality. And depth.
Our lack of depth was illustrated last night when Schweinsteiger was taken off and Fellaini was thrown on. To begin with Fellaini was playing deep, which makes no sense when you don't have a first touch or any decent level of ball control, he's not even that strong in the air given his size and physicality. Then he's moved up front and Rooney is getting deep. We lost all momentum, had no ideas and didn't look like scoring.
We did have a number of chances so the margins are thin, but this team looks bereft of conviction and confidence.
Best case scenario is we actually win in Germany, which is doubtful, and improve our league form (other teams will almost surdely pick up form) and finish on a strong note, then look elsewhere in the summer. The experiment has been half successful.
He's gotten rid of some players we needed out. He's sorted out our defense and it looks quite good, and that by playing Blind at center back which I thought would be a nightmare. He's developed a possession style which we've not had before. We are currently 2nd in the league. He kept de Gea for another season. He's turned Smalling into a world class defender.
Cons:
We are about as convincing in attack as we were under Moyes. We have too thin a squad when it comes to quality. We only seem to have one style so when it's not working we have no ideas. He shows preferential treatment to players despite lack of form. We may be knocked out of the CL in the group stages because we've been awful in Europe.
Sacking him now would be beyond stupid. But if a top quality manager is available in the summer (Pep, if he doesn't sign a new contract, or Ancelotti) would it make sense to keep van Gaal for another year? I doubt it. And let's be honest, having Giggs take over in 2017 is an enormous risk.
For his system to work he needs one or two outstanding attacking players. He's got none. Holland had Robben. His Barcelona and Bayern had top quality players. Our team may be better than what we have shown, but not that much better. We seriously lack quality. And depth.
Our lack of depth was illustrated last night when Schweinsteiger was taken off and Fellaini was thrown on. To begin with Fellaini was playing deep, which makes no sense when you don't have a first touch or any decent level of ball control, he's not even that strong in the air given his size and physicality. Then he's moved up front and Rooney is getting deep. We lost all momentum, had no ideas and didn't look like scoring.
We did have a number of chances so the margins are thin, but this team looks bereft of conviction and confidence.
Best case scenario is we actually win in Germany, which is doubtful, and improve our league form (other teams will almost surdely pick up form) and finish on a strong note, then look elsewhere in the summer. The experiment has been half successful.
What is Giggs role in all this though?
Behind closed walls at Utd the discussions must be so interesting. They can obviously see we are playing boring football non creative (you have to remember LVG traditionally plays attacking football has done all his career, alongside building teams that has the best ability to get the desired results - see Holland WC). But the conversations around the performances must be really interesting. Looking forward to hearing about it in Biographies post this era.
Behind closed walls at Utd the discussions must be so interesting. They can obviously see we are playing boring football non creative (you have to remember LVG traditionally plays attacking football has done all his career, alongside building teams that has the best ability to get the desired results - see Holland WC). But the conversations around the performances must be really interesting. Looking forward to hearing about it in Biographies post this era.
Yes man for now, Backstabber later.