We will be the laughing stock of the world if we sack a manager when the team is second in the league irrespective of how much we hate the brand of football.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Since we're not second, can we do it now ?
That other than the few games you mentioned, we reverted back to type for the majority of last season, just like we are doing now.
The games we've supposedly played good football in his reign are very few, so much more that they look like outliers instead.
When the majority of your players, including those you've purchased and even some you've worked with before are all struggling, it becomes more than just an issue of form for me. I think the philosophy doesnt get the best out of these players at all.
Its not outlandish to think that a superior manager can get just a bit more from this group. Its simply not true that the new guy will come here and want to completely change everything again and just sell players.
Look at City , Chelsea and even Psg for example that have had such a similar large change in playing personnel. Usually the managers that come after such have occured only add a few more players to what they found.
So a Pep or Ancelotti wouldnt need to make as many signings either, I really do think there's talent in this group, and we are simply playing far below that talent level.
I still think he's doing a good job. He has almost entirely refreshed the team with youth, pace and discipline, he is bringing our own youth through, and most importantly he is getting results. The next manager will have one hell of a base to work from, and that was his purpose here - to get us back to winning ways and build for the future.
People complaining because we're not scoring a hatful of goals every game need to have a word with themselves.
The only valid criticism is his treatment of Rooney, which i am convinced is political. Keep the most influential figure in the team/club happy and he can bring in his changes unhindered. As soon as he is finished, I'll bet money he will send Wayne packing.
People complaining because we're not scoring a hatful of goals every game need to have a word with themselves.
The only valid criticism is his treatment of Rooney, which i am convinced is political. Keep the most influential figure in the team/club happy and he can bring in his changes unhindered. As soon as he is finished, I'll bet money he will send Wayne packing.
I think there's a difference between complaining about not scoring a hat full and complaining about not scoring at all. Christ, between our two goals against CSKA, we went over 6 hours without scoring. 5/11 matches we've played over the past two months have ended scoreless. That's just not acceptable for a club with the history of United.
This is a major failing of his philosophy. An entire football club must reshape itself for one man, instead of the other way around or something in between. The time and money invested to reach this waypoint in the process are staggering. Yet he is as constant as the north star.
I would tolerate the "bad" football if it means us winning majority of those games and earning trophies. so far we haven't won any trophies and look near unwatchable at the same time with plethora of draws, with many of them being 0-0s, one getting us knocked out by a second division team at home in penalties.
his stubbornness is getting to me as well, particularly with him refusing to drop rooney even though he looks nowhere near the peak player he was every time I (and pretty much everyone else on this forum) see him play.
we should get rid as soon as better manager becomes available. preferably pep though I read that he's going to city or something...
his stubbornness is getting to me as well, particularly with him refusing to drop rooney even though he looks nowhere near the peak player he was every time I (and pretty much everyone else on this forum) see him play.
we should get rid as soon as better manager becomes available. preferably pep though I read that he's going to city or something...
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Well you get the point I am trying to make. If we sack him while Mourinho is being given time by Abramovic, we will suddenly become the whipping boys for the press.
Mourinho's the reining league Champion and one of the top tier managers in club football. Ability wise there is only 1 upgrade on him in the entirety of club football and that is Pep Guardiola.
Van gaal isn't in that class.
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On the other hand, I think he's managed to outcast the biggest talent out of our youth system for years, shown an inabilty to get the best out of players available to him, has promoted youth players and selects his first team based on his own biases rather than ability. All the while, spending 100s of millions and boring us to death.
I get you perfectly and I was taking the piss. However why the feck should we care what the press and other fans would think ? Even during the most successful and best years under SAF, there was some ridiculous articles and criticism written about United. The press can go feck itself.
This, a new manager would just add to this side and more likely extract a whole lot more than LVG. I think it's clear that under LVG this is as good as it gets, the performances against City, Spurs and Liverpool last season were a fluke, because in his mind all we have tp do is finish the one chance we get in a match and rely on Smalling and De Gea to keep teams out.
You've mentioned three games yourself, I've added five more. That's 8 games out of 19. As a corollary, you won't be able to find such examples in the first half of the season, in which we saw a single decent performance against Hull.
My point still stands, we saw a significant improvement in the level and style of football played, which is why the knives were sheathed at the start of this season.
He isn't scared of Rooney. He loves him and he genuinely thinks he consistently plays very well for us, otherwise he'd not be the first name on the sheet and would not be getting the praise for being one of the top 5 footballers he's ever managed.
We probably won't but Manchester United, the business, surely would. We need to get comfortable with LVG. Unfortunately he isn't going anywhere unless we drop out of top 4.
My point is not to vindicate failings. The point is that you have to more realistic about the level United is at. The signings are generally better than what was sold and what was kept, but it's still nowhere near the best in England and on European squad quality I would rank them no higher than 10th. Maybe even lower if I put much weight on basic technical ability.
If you say United should do better than this, that's based on what United used to be, not on the current squad. You can moan about the style of play, and I admit the execution is disappointing too often, but do you want a transition or not? People should be careful what they wish for, United has been a bigger name than a big performer since Ronaldo left, and the last meaningful performance was at the cost of the future. 5 years of managerial changes could give the club downward momentum, the European elite is not something you're entitled to because of the name and the past, and once out it's not easy to get back in.
Maybe it's a mismatch between this club in this day and this manager, but that would be because the manager knows what he wants and the fans don't know what they want. They say they want an experienced manager, but then they know better themselves and don't rate his experience. They say they want a strong man, but then complain he's stubborn and doesn't bend over to the press and the fans opinions. They say they want a tough manager, but then they complain the players have to train hard and stick to rules.They say they want to be more like Barcelona, but hate possesion football and get annoyed with every pass backward. They say they hate possession football but want Guardiola to take over. They say they want a transition to a more modern game that takes time, but they get impatient as soon as the worst has been dealt with.
No, it's outlandish to think that there are superior managers. Maybe managers better fitting to this club with these players and the wishes of these fans with tendency to hate , but not superior.
How do you picture Pep's style with players who need a couple of touches to control a ball, who can't pass accurately over 10 yards and who need a 5 seconds to decide who to pass it to? He would have to change his style dramatically and risk loss of possesion an awful lot more and he would be working with less technical ability and vision than he has ever done before.
I think there are things not working as they should, and there's fair criticism. But there's just way too much bullshit thrown at Van Gaal, it seems like anything from any angle will do, as long as it's aimed at Van Gaal. It's difficult to find the fair criticism among it, let alone take it seriously.
Other than our static, monotonous and predictable tactics there's two other things that concern me under van Gaal.
1. We've spent a lot of money since he's been at the club and some of the players we've signed have been questionable: Herrera and Shaw (both signed before van Gaal was appointed, although he approved both of them but I think they would've been signed regardless of him becoming manager or not) Herrera has been very good in most parts but van Gaal doesn't seem to trust him. As for Shaw it's just such a shame when we finally saw him coming good the poor lad got his injury.
Rojo: Has been decent but nothing more, I can't really see him being here long term. He also seems to have had an off field spat with van Gaal over the trouble with his passport.
Di Maria: Huge big name signing to get the fans excited but ultimately failed to deliver, I know he was brilliant in the first part of the season up until the off the field issues with the unfortunate break in at his house etc. but from when he first signed it seemed like all he wanted to do was join PSG anyway which begs the question why didn't the club spot that because it must've been obvious?
Falcao: Like Di Maria another big name signing that failed to deliver. I'm not going to go in depth about this, all I'm going to say is thankfully we didn't spend £40 odd million signing him on a permanent basis.
Blind: One of the more successful signings of the van Gaal era, ok he's been a bit dodgy at the back for us at times but he's a very good holding midfielder and long term that is where he should play.
Valdes: Ok I know this was a free transfer but on this one I'm going to side with van Gaal. We did him a favour by allowing him to come and train with us and then offering him a deal when there didn't appear to be many takers. He obviously needed to build up his fitness and the way he could do that was by playing for the under 21's because we would've dropped our best player who was in the form of his life.
Memphis: I was really excited when we signed him, I thought he'd bring pace and a real attacking threat to the team and make it a similar set up to the one van Gaal had at Bayern. So far he hasn't really shown any of these qualities frankly, he looks almost too muscly and seems to have a bit of an attitude. I do think we should give him time though because clearly Giggs see's something in him and I do think there's a real world class player in there waiting to come out hopefully in the next two years or so.
Darmian: He started off really well but seems to have taken a huge nose dive in confidence.
Schweinsteiger: A player who's best years probably are behind him but I like him and I think he try's to lift the rest of the teams spirits.
Schneiderlin: I was concerned at the time about how much money we were spending on him but after watching him at Southampton I thought he'd really beef up the midfield but unfortunately that hasn't happened. Every game he has played in he looks average and he seems to be overawed by playing for a big club like United.
Romero: Like Valdes a free transfer not really much to say about him.
Martial: The most exciting young player we've had at the club since Ronaldo. I know he hasn't had much success in front goal more recently but with more pacey attacking players at our disposal he will thrive in a team like that.
2. van Gaal has done a good job clearing out the deadwood and I know he likes to work with smaller squads but for me I think the size of the squad is too small now and we seem to be lacking more options in attack then ever before.
1. We've spent a lot of money since he's been at the club and some of the players we've signed have been questionable: Herrera and Shaw (both signed before van Gaal was appointed, although he approved both of them but I think they would've been signed regardless of him becoming manager or not) Herrera has been very good in most parts but van Gaal doesn't seem to trust him. As for Shaw it's just such a shame when we finally saw him coming good the poor lad got his injury.
Rojo: Has been decent but nothing more, I can't really see him being here long term. He also seems to have had an off field spat with van Gaal over the trouble with his passport.
Di Maria: Huge big name signing to get the fans excited but ultimately failed to deliver, I know he was brilliant in the first part of the season up until the off the field issues with the unfortunate break in at his house etc. but from when he first signed it seemed like all he wanted to do was join PSG anyway which begs the question why didn't the club spot that because it must've been obvious?
Falcao: Like Di Maria another big name signing that failed to deliver. I'm not going to go in depth about this, all I'm going to say is thankfully we didn't spend £40 odd million signing him on a permanent basis.
Blind: One of the more successful signings of the van Gaal era, ok he's been a bit dodgy at the back for us at times but he's a very good holding midfielder and long term that is where he should play.
Valdes: Ok I know this was a free transfer but on this one I'm going to side with van Gaal. We did him a favour by allowing him to come and train with us and then offering him a deal when there didn't appear to be many takers. He obviously needed to build up his fitness and the way he could do that was by playing for the under 21's because we would've dropped our best player who was in the form of his life.
Memphis: I was really excited when we signed him, I thought he'd bring pace and a real attacking threat to the team and make it a similar set up to the one van Gaal had at Bayern. So far he hasn't really shown any of these qualities frankly, he looks almost too muscly and seems to have a bit of an attitude. I do think we should give him time though because clearly Giggs see's something in him and I do think there's a real world class player in there waiting to come out hopefully in the next two years or so.
Darmian: He started off really well but seems to have taken a huge nose dive in confidence.
Schweinsteiger: A player who's best years probably are behind him but I like him and I think he try's to lift the rest of the teams spirits.
Schneiderlin: I was concerned at the time about how much money we were spending on him but after watching him at Southampton I thought he'd really beef up the midfield but unfortunately that hasn't happened. Every game he has played in he looks average and he seems to be overawed by playing for a big club like United.
Romero: Like Valdes a free transfer not really much to say about him.
Martial: The most exciting young player we've had at the club since Ronaldo. I know he hasn't had much success in front goal more recently but with more pacey attacking players at our disposal he will thrive in a team like that.
2. van Gaal has done a good job clearing out the deadwood and I know he likes to work with smaller squads but for me I think the size of the squad is too small now and we seem to be lacking more options in attack then ever before.
Who? Wilson? He has shown nothing in LVGs time to show he is ready for the first team yet.
I was happy with the possession football when we were creating more chances. But now it is starting to get very worrying. We keep teams in the game with this style of play.
Sir Alex has shown that very special managers can get that much more his players.
You'd think that as United fans, we'd know more of that than most.
who gives a shite , you sound moyeslike. get rid, do you know about this team in spain called real madrid?
I mentioned four games..all in January for a reason.
You mentioned performances against Spurs, Newcastle etc, with the majority of them occuring before January. My point in doing that is that we reverted back to form, and in January and some parts of February , we actually got even worse. Take out the three game run in March, and its more of the same too.
The game against Yeovil and Cambridge were some of the worst United games I have ever seen tbh.
My main point in mentioning all this is to show that your argument about a gradual improving in performances isn't true. Our football but for a few games was quite bad last season too, however because Van Gaal was still in his first season and because of the trauma of the past season, and getting back into the UCL, a lot of people were willing to turn a blind to that.
We wanted another Ajax, we got a pound shop Alkmaar.
paid for barca.
You are making far too many assumptions about what you think my stance is , then attacking that position, and fighting that supposed position vigorously. I have hardly said any of the things you are saying.
I do know that we are in transition, and I simply do not expect us to be as good as we were under Sir Alex , because Van Gaal is a far far inferior manager to Sir Alex. That fact alone shouldnt excuse Van Gaal from genuine criticism.
As for the superior manager thing, I'd disagree, but I'm intrigued on what basis you are making such an assessment. On the basis of tangible factors such as trophy successes in Europe and multiple league in recent times, jobs held, awards won, records against other managers(Van Gaal included),effectiveness of tactics, I think they are far superior candidates than Van Gaal. However your criteria would shed some light on your reasoning.
For me the biggest flaw in your argument is that you are almost arguing that Van Gaal is as good as it gets with this players(Obviously I disagree), and that is why you'd rather keep him than bring someone in. Perhaps you can explain why you think so .
The City game was in April, and the Liverpool away and Spurs home were in March. That's some sketchy memory you've got.
Why did he play a 3-5-2 when we just as easily could've played a 4-2-3-1? With Blind as a left back and Young as a left winger? That would've been much easier to do, but no, Van Gaal wanted an extra man back in defense - because he's a coward.
doesn't matter if he got the fecking dates wrong. his point is spot on. dire football. which we played at the end of the season. the knives weren't out because the season hadn't started and he added players. to what end , higher in the standings yet just as shit on the pitch. knives back out and lets hope the cut is made. facht!
It's a funny thing for me
While the football is boring as hell, it's not that what's losing him for me. It's him calling out Depay and McNair and putting them down in public but, England's brave, heroic, lionheart Wayne Rooney, gets away with it.
How can you take a manager serious if he's afraid of one of his own players?
While the football is boring as hell, it's not that what's losing him for me. It's him calling out Depay and McNair and putting them down in public but, England's brave, heroic, lionheart Wayne Rooney, gets away with it.
How can you take a manager serious if he's afraid of one of his own players?
Yeah that annoyed me as well. He threw McNair, who I thought had a miles better game than Rooney, under the bus, while he'll never criticize his glorious captain.
Right, you meant those. But all that proves, again is that we didn't play every game perfectly. No one argued for Nirvana anyway, just that there was a noticeable improvement in the second half of the season.
We are way past the point of redundancy now. Show me evidence that we were just as capable of the kind of good performance that we've shown in the eight games mentioned in the first half of the season, and you'll have a ghost of a point.
Your point doesnt make any sense.
You've given evidence of games in December that we played good football, and I've given examples of games in the following month to show that we reverted back to the boring football quite quickly, to show that they was no gradual improvement you speak of.
I've then asked you to tell us which games in the 2nd half of the season we were playing great football(Other than the Spurs-Pool-City), and that you have completely danced around.
In an attempt to be witty, you've completely confused yourself about the dates of games I never mentioned.
This is a waste of both our time now.
I'm not surprised, you're glib and obtuse in equal measure.
Very true. The football is down the list of reasons I'm lost with Van Gaal.
It was the same with Moyes quite frankly, it was his personality, choice of words and demeanour that killed me. Not just the bad results.
People like to say that you shouldn't take much value from a manager's discourse with the media and while I agree it's unlikely to 'win' over people, you can sure as hell lose them if you say the wrong things.
Van Gaal throwing McNair under the bus yesterday was unforgivable to me. It's just shocking man-management and makes the man look as spineless as any manager I've seen - no excuse for it whatsoever. Certainly doesn't go anyway to dispel the 'bully' label some have given him. Picking on McNair but won't dare say a bad word about the worst player in your squad because you fear some unknown backlash? That pretty much covers it.
i think he also said after the game that rooney wasnt running behind the strikers
It's strange behaviour from someone who supposedly values youth development. What does he gain from slagging young players off in public?
