but to blame it on rooney for poor play is a mistake , yes he's been poor - LVG if he can't see it and must not because he continues to play him and only illness or injury will keep him out. and because united are so thin up top, LVG doesn't have the ability to change play.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I get the feeling LvG wants him and his system to credited for any success, rather than individual brilliance from the players. People can mock the stories coming out as we so far have kept in the title mix, but there's often no smoke without fire.
Kind of feels like it, doesn't it. Last season, our best performances came after the loss to Arsenal in the FA cup, where we hit rock bottom after a serious of poor performances.
I think he is happy for now looking at the current position in the table, I don't think any change is imminent in style/ performances. unless we drop down the table to say, 5-7th.
Despite this "attractive attacking football", Liverpool have scored less and Arsenal got 4 goals more.
We can debate what constitutes "attractive attacking football" all day, but pointing to sheer numbers isn't going to "disprove" that we're shite in that regard according to a significant portion of the Caf.
Also - Brenda.
Also - Brenda.
Despite this "attractive attacking football", Liverpool have scored less and Arsenal got 4 goals more.
And in the top 5 we are the only team playing consistently dreadful football and we haven't gain any numerical advantages from it. So unless you believe that this group of player is punching above his weight, we are in away underachieving.
Regardless of who the manager is, the attacking options are well below par.
Some actual technicians (who can dribble, turn, remain composed...) are needed.
I'm definitely not in the 'the attackers are good enough' camp, or the 'all they need is better movement' camp.
Possession football can't be executed properly just with great movement. It requires extreme technical ability. This squad lacks it -which is why they never move into clever areas (because they don't trust their technique to control or keep the ball in tight areas), and why they rarely play with any zip or pace.
It's not ALL down to the manager.
Some actual technicians (who can dribble, turn, remain composed...) are needed.
I'm definitely not in the 'the attackers are good enough' camp, or the 'all they need is better movement' camp.
Possession football can't be executed properly just with great movement. It requires extreme technical ability. This squad lacks it -which is why they never move into clever areas (because they don't trust their technique to control or keep the ball in tight areas), and why they rarely play with any zip or pace.
It's not ALL down to the manager.
The lack of those attacking options are partially down to him, as he thought the squad he had was good enough. He said this persistently in the final days of the window. Martial wasn't a panic buy as everyone had thought.
I'm not going to say he's had 3 windows to fix the attack, as it wasn't a priority when he first arrived. The defence and midfield were and he has fixed those, but that being said his biggest mistake imo came from trusting rooney to lead the line and score goals, ignoring the obvious signals of his decline. Now we are in need of a quick fix in January if we want to win the title.
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Then don't play possession football, he didn't play possession football with AZ. LVG made a philosophical choice and also chose the players, so absolutely everything is down to the manager.
And a coach can improve the technique and tactical nous of his players through tactical and technical drills.
Lets not pretend like he didn't inherit one hell of a mess. Our attacking options are limited but considering the amount of players we brought in this summer you could argue he was only one attacking player short. Unfair to say he has had 3 windows to sort the attack as the defence/midfield were important priorities which he has solved.
I agree we shouldn't play possession football. I'll definitely say that's a fault of his own making. He should surrender possession and draw teams out. Mata, Rooney, Depay, Young... are all limited and have played their best football in counter-attacking/back-to-front systems.
As for improving the technique of his players - we'll have to disagree. At this age, players don't develop their technique much at all. They don't suddenly become composed/better on the ball at 25. The technical tools are in place for pretty much all of these players.
If they don't have the technique required (and as a group, they don't) then the manager should either change towards a system that requires less technique (as you suggested), or buy better players.
And lets not pretend that he inherited championship players or that other top coaches are unable to create a functional attack after 18 months.
You guys need to cut the bullshit, obviously our attack isn't as good as City's or Arsenal's but our players are better than a bottom half attack, a lot better than that.
That's not really true, if I use players like Aubameyang, Matuidi or Griezmann, they all improved drastically in term of technique or tactic in 6 months with Ancelloti, Simeone and Klopp.
Also Dortmund uses that tool to improve the technique of their players.
I think the real question is what is attractive attacking football? Those two evidence have barely manage more goals than us which is the charge against LVG. The facts I've gotten from this thread so far points to attractive attacking football meaning more "running" which is ridiculous.
Whereas, admittedly to lesser effect, LvG has been known to actually use his own tool!
No, the real question is why our attack isn't functional? The attractiveness of football is subjective and isn't a rating tool. But the fact is that our attack isn't functional and that's a worry.
If Liverpool 18 goals and Arsenal 24 goals was classed functional, why is Man United 20 goals not classed functional?
In terms of improving technique, I feel players can hone the skills they already have. Eg. Robben could always dribble for fun. He's now just perfected it. Or Carrick could play quick balls through the lines back when he was young. He just improved on a skill he already had.
I don't know much about Aubameyang, Greizmann and Matuidi, but I'd imagine the technique was always there, if you looked closely. They either needed team mates on their wave-length or a bit of honing to really put it together.
Now looking a United:
- Rooney's technique/close control isn't great. There's nothing to hone.
- Mata's dribbling, shielding, turning on the ball is non-existent. There's nothing to be honed.
- Memphis is young, but he's clearly in the Hulk mode of being less tight with his touch, and more about gathering momentum and being powerful. I don't see him being trained into a dribbler.
- Martial has the technique to build upon, I agree. The things he already excels at can be made better. And Januzaj too.
Because goals don't give you the entire picture? Your eyes will show you that we are toothless and your reading talents that we are at the bottom of the league in term of opportunities created. Because our players are good, they have scored the little opportunities that they have been given but it's not always the case and at the moment we are witnessing why it is a problem to not create opportunities.
@Speak You are wrong technique is all about repetition, you can improve everything through thousands of repetitions, maybe some players will complain but if they do it, they will improve.
I don't know if you are familiar with Martial Arts or Racket sports but you do the exact same trainings day in day out, you repeat the same movement and you improve everyday until your body fails you. There is no limit to technical improvement.
As for dribbling it's a bit different because you rely on physical attributes like quickness and natural agility, you can improve both but it's more complicated.
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I assume that in Liverpool's case, folks are referring to their attacking performances once Klopp took charge, not when they were sputtering along under Rodgers. Since the 0-0 draw against Tottenham in his first game, they have scored an average of 2.18 goals per game across all competitions - and that figure looks set to go up given their performances in recent weeks where they've dispatched City, Southampton and Chelsea - scoring 13 goals in the process. Quite interestingly, they've conceded 0.83 goals per game in that time frame across all competitions, so that's a good defensive record to go with the offensive approach, instead of a containment tactic. And all this when the new manager has had to embed his ideology at the club, and he is coaching a set of players he doesn't quite know (yet).
If we compare those numbers with United, we have scored an average of 0.91 goals per game in that time frame across all competitions, while conceding an average of 0.55 goals per game - and this in the second year under the manager, when things should've ideally been pointing upwards from a performance standpoint. The worrying thing here is that since the 3-0 win against Everton, we have scored just 7 goals in 9 games across all competitions, dropped 6 points in the League while scoring just 1 goal in total in those fixtures, and have been knocked out of the League Cup because again, we couldn't breach Middlesbrough's defense. Can't see how anyone can overlook our attacking problems to be honest. And it isn't just about goal figures in a vacuum. Liverpool have been really 'exciting' to watch - though that part is unquantifiable, and they have been statistically superior in almost every attacking metric. Which kind of reinforces what one subjectively sees on the pitch.
It's all irrelevant in my opinion … one could say, Leicester City's 29 goals, for instance, make them 150% more potent than us but we all know that they'll drop off because a simple glance at GD tells us that they should be joint 5th with Everton (on 8 – GD seldom lies come the end of the season). Therefore being one point behind the leaders means FA if we are currently 4th in the GD table (and sliding quickly) … it's where we ended up last year and another indicator that says we have been taken as far as we can go by LvG.
What worries me is that if you hadn't factored Chelsea's slump into that it'd be 5th!
… and if Liverpool and Tottenham keep up their stellar improvements we'll soon be 6th and worrying about whether it might be better to finish outside the Europa league places … sound familiar?
Erm, the league table is the one which means something and the "GD table" is the one which means "FA".
Amusing how you've put us 4th using GD and pushed us all the way down to 6th all along this fictional table of yours. Did you weep when Liverpool scored loads of goals two seasons back and won the GD premier league title?
Not as amusing as the fact that you think I'm a fecking dipper just because I pose an argument you either can't agree with or , more worryingly, can't wrap your head around! Do you really think that Leicester City's 29 goals for and 21 goals against is a better return than ours under LvG (I'm not a big fan either, but even I can see that's better). I was talking about projections to the end of the season and there is always one team that throws the spanner in the works … take Spurs when we were under Moyes: they finished in 6th with a GD of 4 above us in 7th with 20 odd. My point is that (not now but at the end of the season) these things even out and a "good" indicator is always GD!
But then there seems to be a lack of perspective and discourse on the CAF at the moment. Think we need a Hillary Benn moment to clear the air!
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Eh? Liverpool were 2nd on GD as well.
Who thinks that LVG will be under serious pressure next Wednesday after the Wolfsburg game ?
It was a long long time when I had no belief in our players for an European game. Even the Munich game with Moyes, I had belief in our player, their level, the response etc, and the first leg at Old Trafford was very very good.
But it's written than we'll loose to Wolfsburg and will be in Europa League.
Then he will have a lot of fans againt him, and this will be very difficult for him.
So what the club will do ?
I think that the club will say that we have a part of the money of the Champions League and the one from Adidas to finish with good figures. Nevertheless, on the football point, unless we win the league, he won't be renewed this summer. And I'm pretty sure that we won't win the League cause our group of players are not good enough to play Thursdays Sundays and we will loose on both fronts
It was a long long time when I had no belief in our players for an European game. Even the Munich game with Moyes, I had belief in our player, their level, the response etc, and the first leg at Old Trafford was very very good.
But it's written than we'll loose to Wolfsburg and will be in Europa League.
Then he will have a lot of fans againt him, and this will be very difficult for him.
So what the club will do ?
I think that the club will say that we have a part of the money of the Champions League and the one from Adidas to finish with good figures. Nevertheless, on the football point, unless we win the league, he won't be renewed this summer. And I'm pretty sure that we won't win the League cause our group of players are not good enough to play Thursdays Sundays and we will loose on both fronts
I've got a question for all the LvG detractors (and there are obviously plenty here!) - where would you rank our front 4 against our major competitors at home and abroad?
Reason I ask is that it is universally accepted that van Gaal's first priority at OT has been to stabilise our defence and make us tough to beat, which I think absolutely everybody will agree he has achieved. In doing so, many on here have accused him of negating us as an attacking force, blaming "negative tactics" and possession football.
In my opinion we have the most organised back 7 in world football at the moment (not talking about individuals btw before people start comparing - I'm talking about a defensive unit of a keeper, 4 defenders and 2 DM's)
However in attack, where we are being criticised by fans, players, pundits, ex-players etc.....I do want everybody to compare player for player, because I think it goes a long way to explaining why we don't score enough goals
So imo it looks something like this (with * representing my opinion that these players can significantly improve above their current rating with experience)
United - Martial 8*, Depay 7*, Mata 7, Rooney 0 (seriously - it's taking all my restraint not to give him a minus score as I actually think he is a hinderance!)
City - De Bruyne 9, Aguero 10, Silva 10, Sterling 7*
Chelsea - Hazard 10, Costa 8, Willian 8, Fabregas 8
Bayern - Muller 10, Douglas Costa 9, Ribery 9, Lewandowski 9
Real - Benzema 9, Ronaldo 9, Bale 10, James 9
Barcelona - Messi 10, Neymar 10, Suarez 10, Sergi Roberto 8*
What is interesting is that all 6 of these teams play EXACTLY the same system (arguably implemented by Van Gaal at 3!), yet only 1 is receiving a constant hammering about being boring, negative and defensive. Ironically, all of the blame is being laid at the door of the very same system used by van Gaal at United which is used by some of Europe's most attacking and exciting sides
So, my conclusion can only be that its the players, and I think most sane and unbiased football fans would rank the attacking players at those 6 clubs about the same as I have. Van Gaal has alluded to it several times himself in interviews ("I have Young and he is not Neymar" springs to mind!)
OK, before anybody says it - it's van Gaal's job to sign players and remedy the situation, but these top, top players don't grow on trees and sometimes take years of wrangling to sign.
My point is, surely the players should be getting the flak and we should trust that van Gaal knows what he is doing and giving the time will remedy the obvious problems we have with quality in our attack, like he has done with the defence?
Reason I ask is that it is universally accepted that van Gaal's first priority at OT has been to stabilise our defence and make us tough to beat, which I think absolutely everybody will agree he has achieved. In doing so, many on here have accused him of negating us as an attacking force, blaming "negative tactics" and possession football.
In my opinion we have the most organised back 7 in world football at the moment (not talking about individuals btw before people start comparing - I'm talking about a defensive unit of a keeper, 4 defenders and 2 DM's)
However in attack, where we are being criticised by fans, players, pundits, ex-players etc.....I do want everybody to compare player for player, because I think it goes a long way to explaining why we don't score enough goals
So imo it looks something like this (with * representing my opinion that these players can significantly improve above their current rating with experience)
United - Martial 8*, Depay 7*, Mata 7, Rooney 0 (seriously - it's taking all my restraint not to give him a minus score as I actually think he is a hinderance!)
City - De Bruyne 9, Aguero 10, Silva 10, Sterling 7*
Chelsea - Hazard 10, Costa 8, Willian 8, Fabregas 8
Bayern - Muller 10, Douglas Costa 9, Ribery 9, Lewandowski 9
Real - Benzema 9, Ronaldo 9, Bale 10, James 9
Barcelona - Messi 10, Neymar 10, Suarez 10, Sergi Roberto 8*
What is interesting is that all 6 of these teams play EXACTLY the same system (arguably implemented by Van Gaal at 3!), yet only 1 is receiving a constant hammering about being boring, negative and defensive. Ironically, all of the blame is being laid at the door of the very same system used by van Gaal at United which is used by some of Europe's most attacking and exciting sides
So, my conclusion can only be that its the players, and I think most sane and unbiased football fans would rank the attacking players at those 6 clubs about the same as I have. Van Gaal has alluded to it several times himself in interviews ("I have Young and he is not Neymar" springs to mind!)
OK, before anybody says it - it's van Gaal's job to sign players and remedy the situation, but these top, top players don't grow on trees and sometimes take years of wrangling to sign.
My point is, surely the players should be getting the flak and we should trust that van Gaal knows what he is doing and giving the time will remedy the obvious problems we have with quality in our attack, like he has done with the defence?
What are those numbers next to those players?
Their grades, which show that even for @Lentwood our players are above average. But our attack is statiscally below average(on current form we score less than a goal per game), so we have a problem.
Nah, can't be that. He gave Hazard, Bale 10 and it's just some of the comedy gold going on around there.
I don't think the club will do anything if we lose but he will start to lose the faith of a lot of fans who have buried their heads in the sand and think everything is ok as long as we're still in the Champions league and "only 'x' points off the top of the league".
I swear that it is their ratings, it's subjective so I'm not judging them but he graded our players as pretty good, which kind of kills the argument that they are not good enough to play decently.
Martial higher current rating than Sterling.
Umm. Okay then.
But anyway, it's quite clear the attacking options aren't close to where they need to be at the moment. It's down to van Gaal to change the system so that they can still be more effective despite being less technically skilled.
At the end of the day, though, it's working well enough to have the team sitting right near the top. Next summer should be about bringing in (among others) two forwards of top quality, who can dribble, turn and show composure under pressure.
The possession system itself isn't flawed; the personnel just isn't good enough.
Umm. Okay then.
But anyway, it's quite clear the attacking options aren't close to where they need to be at the moment. It's down to van Gaal to change the system so that they can still be more effective despite being less technically skilled.
At the end of the day, though, it's working well enough to have the team sitting right near the top. Next summer should be about bringing in (among others) two forwards of top quality, who can dribble, turn and show composure under pressure.
The possession system itself isn't flawed; the personnel just isn't good enough.
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The problem here is that fixing the defense and the midfield was not some monolithic issue which should've taken special priority over retooling the entire squad. Improving the attack while tightening the defense can and has been done simultaneously in the past, and United should have been no different - it's hardly a befuddling conundrum. Also, did we really fix the defense and midfield in earnest? De Gea was one of the top keepers in the world before Van Gaal took charge, Shaw was Shaw, Smalling (this extends to Jones too) just needed to stay fit and find some consistency instead of playing makeshift rightback. A lot of the defensive problems were predicated on the performance of a couple key players - and those problems have resolved themselves due to favourable circumstances. Take one of those key players out - De Gea for Romero, or Smalling for McNair, and it will fall apart. As for the midfield, we still aren't playing someone who IMO is our best midfielder - that would be Ander, because he doesn't 'fit' into a double pivot which we're insisting with for some reason. Schweinsteiger as good as he is - is ageing and it will show from time to time. We stumbled upon a very effective midfield trio last season, with a good balance between work-rate, distribution, creative guile and verve. And for some reason - completely abandoned that, and went back to the drawing board during the pre-season, instead of building upon the good work of 2014.
For the attack - he has to take full responsibility. Whether the personnel is deficient, or the system sucks, or everyone bar Rooney doesn't 'get' the philosophy. Letting Chicharito, Van Persie, Welbeck, Kagawa, Falcao, Di Maria go within the space of 12 months, aside from loaning Januzaj, and buying just Memphis and Martial was always going to backfire. Everyone could see this coming from a mile away save for Van Gaal, or whoever drew up the plan to jettison half a dozen attackers while pinning our hopes on kids from substantially inferior leagues - who were always going to be inconsistent given their age and relative inexperience deserves 99% of the blame. There's too much unnecessary experimentation and tinkering instead of laying concrete foundations and adhering to a strict blueprint, which intuitively goes against the argument that he's laying the platform for future United managers.
Couldn't agree more
When I watch Utd now, it feels like seeing an old man in a Ferrari driving well within the limits of the law. All the components are there for a visual spectacle as well as championship winning performance 'under the hood', but Mr Cautious is afraid of getting mud on his wheels. His irritating conservative ways have me looking on admirably at less attractive cars, equipped with much more adventurous drivers!
Ancelotti is a great man manager who gets the best out of his players.
Our players don't even look like they want to play for LvG.
Our players don't even look like they want to play for LvG.
Written by Tancredi Palmeri. Ignore.
The Guardian mention Allegri:
http://www.theguardian.com/football...no-allegri-plays-down-manchester-united-links
http://www.theguardian.com/football...no-allegri-plays-down-manchester-united-links