I'm not enjoying our football under LvG but things aren't that desperate.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
- Thread starter Nighteyes
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not enjoying our football under LvG but things aren't that desperate.
Did you see the bit about Manchester United's characteristics? Apparently, our strengths include taking long shots and finishing scoring chances. That's a new one on me. He must be taking the piss.
I would argue that the midfield WAS a huge issue which needed to be addressed. Even toward the end of SAF's career he was still persisting with a 37yo converted winger in central midfield. Also, van Gaal had lost 3 of Moyes/Ferguson's starting back 4 (Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra)
Secondly, who of those players van Gaal "jettisoned" would you still want in the side? Average breeds average and after some of the abject performances under Moyes I'm quite happy that they were unceremoniously dumped by van Gaal. I'm of the opinion he didn't go far enough - I would have cleared out Fellaini and Young too, even though they have contributed up to a point. Nobody at Manchester Utd should be able to get away with being consistently average. I would rather see lads from the U18's playing than Kagawa, Hernandez, Nani etc....
Another question for you - going back to my original post - where do you think our current side would finish if you took out Rooney, Mata and Depay (for now) and bought in Neymar, Suarez and Messi, or Muller, Costa and Ribery, or Benzema, Ronaldo and Bale? My opinion is top by a long way
Statistically he is right, we finish our scoring chances. We scored 17 goals out of 90 chances while City scored 30 goals out of 188 chances.
Surely that's an assessment of the individual players as opposed to LVG?
The question for this thread should be if you took LVG out and replaced him with Ancelotti, Klopp, Guardiola et al where would the current squad finish the league?
I do agree with you on the consistently average performances of Utd players illustrating how standards have slipped. Fellaini should have never been bought!
In the best match we have played so far this season...away to Everton, Rooney scored and almost scored again.
That match was more in line with how we played under Fergie. How van Gaal has the team playing is a major factor in our overall lack of goals.
That match was more in line with how we played under Fergie. How van Gaal has the team playing is a major factor in our overall lack of goals.
When was that- 2008?
The midfield is still not up to scratch after him presiding over 3 transfer windows, and 18 total months in-charge. You compare our midfield with some of the elite ones across Europe, and it is still lacking in quality and sustainability over 3-4 seasons despite spending about £60 million on 3 players. Carrick will be 35 at the start of next season, and Fußballgott 32. That doesn't bode well for the medium term future, and meanwhile Ander sits on the bench. This is not what you'd ideally want in a midfield overhaul when Dortmund for example have spent about £12 million combined on a United 'reject', and Julian Weigl to reshape theirs. Too much money has been spent relative to the output, which has been a consistent theme under Van Gaal. Even aside from quality, the tactic with 2 sitting midfielders in front of the defense seems excessive from a defensive standpoint; and not penetrative at all, especially against rubbish teams that park the proverbial bus - something that is reflected in the results where even aside from a lack of goal threat, our midfielders don't pose a substantial goal threat.
As to your second point:
Chicharito is still good enough, but doesn't fit into the manager's 'philosophy'. Perhaps if he were more accommodating and willing to bend his ideology to suit the personnel instead of shoving his vision down our throats, we could've gotten something out of him - worth remembering that he has scored 12 in 17 games for Leverkusen, and the Bundesliga is a Top 3 European league. Fun fact: He has scored 1 fewer goal in Europe than Luis Suárez and Robert Lewandowski, and as many goals as Rooney, Martial, Mata and Memphis combined. Even if he doesn't fit into your possession based system, Hernández is a top notch goal scorer and would've been an excellent Plan B - infinitely better than the Fellaini charade.
Nani would've done well but he's too inconsistent for the manager, and would've been dropped repeatedly because he tries and sometimes he fails; instead of our current approach where we don't even try to begin with, and recede into our shells. Van Persie is still better than Rooney IMO. Januzaj would've added a fresh element to our attack, even as a substitute. So there were players who could've brought something to the United team but we let them walk instead. That is squarely on the manager's shoulders because at United, he is the ultimate authority when it comes to personnel decisions.
To the last point:
The team can't always have top players. You don't need elite players to play attractive, attacking, free-flowing football anyway. That's where managerial ability, game-planning and adaptability comes into focus. Van Gaal has top shelf managerial ability no doubt given his record, but the second and third part is where he fails time and again, historically speaking. Too many orthodox schemes, being stubborn to a fault, not altering your approach to suit the cards you're dealt. And that is what is blighting him at United too. The team can play much better football, you don't need a Suárez type #9, and Neymar/ Costa on the wings to do that.
Despite this "attractive attacking football", Liverpool have scored less and Arsenal got 4 goals more.
Klopp has only been in charge for 6 PL games, and in that time they've put 4 past City, 3 past Chelsea and 6 past Southampton. All away from home too. They also have only 2 goals less then us, and at this rate, will soon have more.
Arsenal have more goals already, and will certainly improve that (although there injury crisis might hopefully derail them). But they clearly play far more attractive football. They're probably the best team to watch in the league, and have been for years.
I'm not really sure what your argument his really, do you think we play better football then those teams?
Well we will have to agree to disagree because I don't consider any of those players to be Utd quality - even as squad players. I give each and every player who puts on a red shirt a fair chance but when they consistently let you down like all of those players did they have to go imo. Even the ones I liked and hoped would do well, Hernandez and Kagawa being two I gave chance after chance
As for the second point - my argument is that this system DOES require stars in attack. I can't remember the exact quote but I think van Gaal has said as much himself. I think the dream is a mega-tight back 7 supporting 4 world class attackers who can create chances on their own through raw talent
Another poster asked where do I think we would be with Ancelotti or Guardiola instead of van Gaal - my answer is I honestly think about the same if not worse off. I genuinely believe the squad LvG inherited would have been a mid-table side so to go from that to one point off top in 18 months in a mega competitive league is outstanding for me
A system that requires stars is lame and a coach who admits it is an embarrassment.
agreed, its a kop out
Only thing VG has improved is our position, yet we look at times so far off the pace. He has yet to put a team together than can take games to the opposition, we go into these games with the feeling we are not really the superior favorites. One poster said, klopp takes over from a team that also finished 7th, and he already has them playing attractive football and he has not had a window yet to spend money on, and he already could have them finish in the top 4. We have had 2 summers 3 windows, and still looks to me he wants even more money to spend. The question is? would we look a much better team having spent another 150 million pounds under this management? if there is options out there in the summer, I would be happy to see VG let go
Fair enough. But I just don't see how those players aren't United quality even as squad depth when Hernández for one is among the top scorers in the Champions League, and has scored at a rate of ~0.66 goals per Bundesliga start. That's aside from the fact that we have worse players currently employed by United.
To the second point, any manager who relies on a system that can't function cohesively without elite players is basically asking for trouble because squad quality is transient in nature, with clubs often going through cycles from a qualitative standpoint. The top managers can produce results in unison with attacking football even with a flawed squad. That's what makes them top, top managers; just as top, top players can drag average team-mates and get them to overachieve as a collective. That's the hallmark of the true elites. If Van Gaal is of the opinion that he can't play beautiful football without a Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar then we might have to wait a while since there are no such players lying around.
Also, how can one state with any semblance of conviction that Ancelotti and Guardiola would have the team at mid-table level when worse managers (this includes Klopp and Pochettino) have taken their team to within touching distance of Top 4, with weaker squads than United's. Furthermore, the competitiveness of the league is being overemphasized. Rather than the league being ultra-competitive, it's the collective decline of the top clubs (United, Arsenal, Chelsea) that enables mid-table and lower rung teams to scrape points off them. The Top 4 of the mid to late 2000s would've dispatched the teams that currently bring them to their knees. Then again, maybe we have differing standards for what is considered outstanding.
I think the midfield is still a problem, its the first part of the problem with respect to us being more exciting to watch and to us scoring more goals. If you have a look at all the other top teams around the world and all the teams scoring goals they have one thing in common, something we simply dont have. That is ball players in CM who can beat opposition players with the ball at their feet as well as pass and move. Even before we get into the oppositions final third we are not causing opposition teams any concern, distress or problems to counter. If we are unable to cause problems in the CM area then it wont matter that much what we do about up front. As it is we have a very talented young striker in Martial playing in the final third who simply doesnt get the right sort of ball delivered to him.
CM's who can dribble and also pass and move mean that opposition defences can never be sure what or how they are going to have to defend. That unpredictability creates more options in the final third, something we simply dont have happening. I am not defending Rooney here but just pointing out even before we try and fix the final third the middle third needs sorting out. There is no point putting a toyota gearbox in front of a Ferrari engine, it just wont improve anything.
Our style of play is such that when we get in to positions where our players are pressed or pressured on the ball we move the ball out into open spaces as a first option. Thats a passive option to take as it means we are simply avoiding pressure. Even Bournemouth at the bottom of the league will try and use short passing routines to move the ball out of pressure situations and then typically will switch play to players moving forward. Southampton are similar as is City. Our wide players receive the ball standing still, they get into wide positions in space but always receive the ball static because of the ball we feed them, typically long switches of play. We need to be feeding them balls they run on to so they dont start from a standing start.
I think the most pressing problem is a more dynamic type of CM, until that is fixed then it wont matter what we do up front.
To be fair, Klopp inherited a side that had already played in a high intensity system and finished 2nd. VG inherited a team that finished seventh and whose morale was destroyed by Moyes and Giggs.
destroyed by Giggs??
Yep, that is a bit of an issue mate. You're spot on, wrt the top teams having an incisive, creative, dribbling, goalscoring threat in midfield to keep the opposition honest - Modrić for Real Madrid, Iniesta and to an extent Rakitić for Barcelona, Thiago for Bayern Munich immediately come to mind. Or from a United perspective, someone like Scholes when he played alongside Keane would really help alleviate a lot of the concerns. That said, it's partly a systemic problem too since Schweinsteiger was more adventurous for Bayern under Heyneckes compared to Van Gaal from 2009 to 2011, so there's a history of him being more deliberate and reserved under Louis. Do think he's a bit stymied by our overall approach. Still, there's no disputing the fact that we need a more dynamic presence in the middle - someone like a Gündogan would be a perfect fit - especially considering his familiarity with playing in a double pivot alongside Bender in the past.
I'm not 100% sure about that.
Basically, we are gearing up to compete with the likes of Barca and Bayern, who also play possession football.
Barca have: Neymar, Suarez and Messi.
Bayern have: Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski, Muller.
MUFC have: Martial, Rooney, Memphis, Mata
We are the only team with no stars up front and none of attackers would be able to get into the first team of Barca and Bayern.
Di Maria was the only player who was top quality (and could get into the first team of any of the teams above, but he got sold).
So, I'm not sure if LVG is wrong when he says that he needs 1 or 2 stars who can unlock teams who park the bus against us.
If we had only 1 of Messi, Muller, Suaraz, Neymar, Lewandowski - I'd be willing to bet that we'd win the title comfortably.
If we had 2 of them, I think we'd be a force in the CL.
If we had 3 of them, I'd think we'd make it to the CL final (minimum).
Think of it this way. Rooney (a Championship player at best, like Falcao before him), is in our first team.
We are not gearing to that at all, we are trying to match teams like Dortmund, Juventus, PSG or Atletico. People need to calm down, we are not a top team.
LVG needs to make us look like a solid and cohesive team in attack and defense, he needs to make us look like a dominant team in PL and CL groups before anything, at the moment we are none of those things and it's not because of a lack of stars.
People seem to not realize that Herrera, Schneiderlin, Memphis, Martial, Lingard and even Rooney are really good players, they are not clowns unable to play football.
I might be the only one thinking that, but our "best" front six(Memphis, Rooney, Martial, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger) is as good as the one PSG have, the difference is that Van gaal is coaching them badly. We are badly underestimating our players in a vain attempt at defending Van gaal.
What is he doing wrong (in the attack,) in your opinion?
And in terms of a comparison - I'm looking at PSG's front six, and I'm not seeing anyone with Ibrahimovich's technique in this United attack. That's one huge difference straight away. And Di Maria is still a better winger than van Gaal current has to choose from.
And even Cavani would probably be the best attacker in the squad, if he joined United, and he's not even PSG's best attacker.
The midfield three are even, though.
Last edited:
that's horse shit! they finished 6th not 2nd! and were even further down the table this season and were dysfunctional prior to his take over. to use your logic LVG inherited a team that finished 1st and was european champions.
In general, I think that we have a problem with the tactical drills, our players don't position themselves in the space, between the lines and don't run behind the defenses. So he either can't communicate his views or he doesn't see it, but since he mentioned it in several press conferences I suspect that the video sessions and his instructions are not understood by the players, I heard that they don't like Max Reckers(the video analyst).
I also think that we have a problem with the technical drills, our players don't trust their own technique and the technique of their teammates.
I'm obviously speculating.
Yea and Moyes took over the reigning champions of England, and finished 7th, while Brendan was managing a side that finished 2nd after bottling the league then finished 6th. Yea Brendan Rogers was doing just fine last season and this season, wasn't he? Finished 6th lost 12 games, morality was at its lowest this season, think klopp had a mess to clear up himself.
See the contradictions in your post, United 2012/12 champions, 2013/14 finished 7th, Liverpool 2013/14 finished 2nd, 2014/15 finished 6th, how is there a difference between the 2? The reality is? VG should be getting better performances out of this squad when we see what he has at his disposal.
By that logic the current squad should be at the level they were before, but VG has done so much changing not solving problems and basically taking a huge gamble in the teams defense and attack, and was willing to go into the season with 2 very dodgy keepers and a keeper thrown out in Valdes. VG is actually lucky time ran out in the window or DDG would be in Madrid, imagine us without DDG
Last edited:
This is why I am glad to see the back of VG, if he cannot get the likes of Memphis, Rooney, Martial, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, I'm sorry he's doing very badly. The fact he cannot get that front 3 and midfield 3 gelling is poor management from him. That is what made it very exciting on the players we signed, the experience signed in midfield we all thought would see the younger players settle in better, but that's not happened at all
By that logic the current squad should be at the level they were before, but VG has done so much changing not solving problemsand basically taking a huge gamble in the teams defense and attack, and was willing to go into the season with 2 very dodgy keepers and a keeper thrown out in Valdes. VG is actually lucky time ran out in the window or DDG would be in Madrid, imagine us without DDG
we picked the wrong horse again. LVG , FFS wake up. play football. you do have some good players. let them play. let them have fun. he's killed much of the fun. louis have a drink and chill the feck out.
Last edited:
I don't think anyone here has any trouble acknowledging that our current attacking options are well below what Barca or Bayern sports. And it's obvious that if we want to become the best team in the world we need to get up on that level, which we probably won't be able to do without dipping into the market in a big way (if that is even possible - it will always depend on availability).
What we're seeing most of the time presently, however, is some sort of six-man defensive model - and four largely disjointed attackers who look like they're left to their own devices. Some of LVG's proponents seem to believe that this dysfunctional dichotomy is natural somehow, or a necessary price to pay for stabilizing the team defensively. If LVG's master plan doesn't extend beyond throwing cash at top notch attackers who will (obviously) boost the efficiency of the isolated attacking unit, then I think it's reasonable to question that plan: It's not much of a plan at all, if you ask me.
Naturally, this is overly polemic in nature - but the point still stands: It's far from unreasonable to expect a top manager to strengthen a team in a way which doesn't focus on one area at the (drastic) expense of another. You don't have to go for a six-man defense model in order to keep the financially soundest and richest club in the league afloat. That's absurd. And you don't need Neymar and Müller in order to play a decent attacking game - which is all most people are asking for, lest we forget.
Then again, there's a silver lining here (albeit an almost comical one): If the above IS the plan, we will assemble a strong selection of players who should prove useful to the next guy regardless of what LVG himself manages to achieve beyond keeping the ship afloat (and for the record I do believe he'll manage that).
What we're seeing most of the time presently, however, is some sort of six-man defensive model - and four largely disjointed attackers who look like they're left to their own devices. Some of LVG's proponents seem to believe that this dysfunctional dichotomy is natural somehow, or a necessary price to pay for stabilizing the team defensively. If LVG's master plan doesn't extend beyond throwing cash at top notch attackers who will (obviously) boost the efficiency of the isolated attacking unit, then I think it's reasonable to question that plan: It's not much of a plan at all, if you ask me.
Naturally, this is overly polemic in nature - but the point still stands: It's far from unreasonable to expect a top manager to strengthen a team in a way which doesn't focus on one area at the (drastic) expense of another. You don't have to go for a six-man defense model in order to keep the financially soundest and richest club in the league afloat. That's absurd. And you don't need Neymar and Müller in order to play a decent attacking game - which is all most people are asking for, lest we forget.
Then again, there's a silver lining here (albeit an almost comical one): If the above IS the plan, we will assemble a strong selection of players who should prove useful to the next guy regardless of what LVG himself manages to achieve beyond keeping the ship afloat (and for the record I do believe he'll manage that).
Last edited:
Oh yeah that team that finished 2nd, apart from the guy who was the best player in the league and arguably the best no.9 in the world.
Oh and without one of the best youngsters around, who was on of their best players.
Not even forgetting no longer having one of their legends in the dressing room.
LvG's a great manager. He's an idiotic person, but as a manager there are few who can compete with him. But once the team stops believing his total human being bs, he's likely to demotivate them. Great choice to get him to clean up after Moyes, but next season all options are open, and we should consider getting Guardiola or Ancelotti after missing out on Klopp who's doing great at Liverpool. LvG's not doing great, and this is a make or break season for him. But I definately want to wait with " LvG out" untill the end of this season. Ultimately, I want United to do well no matter what.
To be fair, Gerrard was a liability. My point is that Pool had some experience playing a high inensity pressing style of football, we don't have a base to play tiki-taka.
The only issue I have with any of that really is that I didn't say we would be mid-table with Guardiola or Ancelotti, I said we would probably be in a similar position to where we are under van Gaal, being as they are also top managers and would also have had money to spend
My argument is quite simple really, we all agree that this current Utd side is a long way from what we want to see as fans in terms of quality and entertainment but not a million miles of in terms of competitiveness at the top of the table
Where we differ is who we should blame for that. Personally I think Glazers for initially buying our club with borrowed money which led to underinvestment in players over a period of about 6-7 years. Followed up by SAF for his failure to address the major issues we began to develop toward the end of his tenure and his poor success rate in the transfer market in his last 6 year or so. Whoever sanctioned Moyes is also culpable as a steady pair of hands like van Gaal would have been ideal in that tricky first season.
What I don't understand is how van Gaal can be blamed. He has done everything asked of him. If he had been here 5 years and spent £600m and we were still playing this kind of football I would have a different opinion but 18months and 2 1/2 transfer Windows does not constitute a long time in the context of rebuilding an entire squad to compete at the top level
Id like to see a change at the end of next year, if not this. LVG has taken the team as far as he can now. We are a good defensive unit, but lack in flair and speed.
Carlo seems a good solid choice, and although people don't like him, I still think Diego Simeoni is worth a punt. High tempo attacking football, by so it with our solid base we now have. Carlo may end up at Bayern if Pep is off to City.
Carlo seems a good solid choice, and although people don't like him, I still think Diego Simeoni is worth a punt. High tempo attacking football, by so it with our solid base we now have. Carlo may end up at Bayern if Pep is off to City.
Good post. I agree with most of the analysis, although, at first glance, the bolded bit caught my eye, and I was shocked. If Islamic terrorism is impinging on the Manchester United forum, things have indeed gone too far.
Shit manager who should leave.
Worst football I've seen Man Utd play (watching since 2003..cue glory hunter)
Worst football I've seen Man Utd play (watching since 2003..cue glory hunter)
I reckon that is just about the only thing LVG hasn't been accused of lately - but it's probably just round the corner.
I'd still rank the football played during the Moyes era as being narrowly worse. Although it's a worryingly close margin if we go by entertainment/style alone right now.
What a shocking post
And what did Giggs do?
Failed to life us out of Moyes era. He had the reputation to pull a Pep but failed.