Probably, but our games and tactics back then doesn't require a CB with tactical awareness. They're just there to defend.
CMIIW but LVG wants all his players to be a ball player.
I'm not saying I knew, but probably that's the matter we're facing.
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Probably, but our games and tactics back then doesn't require a CB with tactical awareness. They're just there to defend.
CMIIW but LVG wants all his players to be a ball player.
I'm not saying I knew, but probably that's the matter we're facing.
That's fair enough, in that case we should be able to expect a very significant improvement when they're all or nearly all available again should we not?
Yes, and you were attacking him from day 1. Your point is?
Not really, I will only take that is if you can point to a top game where SAF lost both starting CBs and got a result. Maybe SAF side may cope better since he's been with them for long, but the lack of Stability is killing the side under a new manager.
Because maybe... just maybe Smailing/Evans/Jones are built and taught exactly as what SAF needs : A CB who defends first and hard, and leave the other things to other players.
Are we really sure Van Gaal knows what his best CB pairing is? In fact, do we know whether he as any confidence in any of them (apart from Rojo, who he bought)?
We won't know that until they are available. LVG has been using the CBs that are available.
Although the start of LVG reign is something we should be worried, but at least the team unity is there compared to last year and also we are playing much better attacking football, just not winning at the moment.
Let's be frank here, if it wasn't for Smallings irresposible red card I reckon we would have won yesterday. Playing ten men against the champions for the majority of the match is a very difficult handicap to bridge, especially since we were away from home to. I was delighted with our fight back in the second half. There is no way that would have happened last season since, as some players have admitted, they didn't know what they were supposed to do. It's obvious LVG ignited the second half fight with his half time talk. He said all the right things afterwards....that we have improved..but not enough...and it's about getting points above all. I think our fight for 4th will be the same as our fight for the title in the olden days!
The results will come, which is something I never felt was going to happen last season under Moyes. We gave City and Chelsea good games and could have possibly came out of both of them with a win based on the performances. We're competing again at least and I think we'll end up finishing in a top four place by the end of the season with some games to spare.
The 'playing better' part is very important though. If LvG has managed to excite us again despite the lack of points then that should be a credit to him. I'm actually looking forward to every match now, regardless of opponents or venue. Our team looks way more fluid than the static cones schooled by Moyes. And also our team unity looks stronger, there doesn't seem to be any open discontent.
However, it's the results that matter in the end and LvG really got to step up here. Of course it's legitimate to ask questions if we don't improve significantly before the turn of the year but I still have lots of faith in LvG (and this team) which I couldn't say at this stage last season.
The main difference is that di Maria always runs at a defender on the wing, who can pick him up and di Maria isn't great in a fixed one on one set-up. At Real last season, di Maria always ran in the gaps that opened up through Ronaldo's and Benzema's movement. Di Maria always was a hit and miss winger, a few great performances when things went well for him followed by awful performances.
I like di Maria a lot in that midfield role. I'm not sure if he's a smart player (his decision making is too often really bad) but he seems to have great instincts, knows how to find gaps infront of him and exploit them. He's a much more unpredictable player when starting in midfield and his energy level, his workrate is amazing and much more useful in a central role. It's difficult for the opponent to pick him up, because he pops up all over the pitch and you can't get a hold of him because he won't stop running.
I agree, the team look like they are close to clicking and he also senses this. A win is expected in the next game and against Arsenal we should look for at least a point and strong performance.
Then the games until the first 19 have been played:
Hull City (H)
Stoke (H)
Southampton (A)
Liverpool (H)
Aston Villa (A)
Newcastle (H)
Spurs (A)
This is where I will judged him, the team should be expected to go on a 7 match unbeaten run winning quite a few. That will set us up nicely for the last 19 games!
For me, the only concern is that we do not know our best 11 or even formation. I think it is apparent we need to bring the diamond back because Angel di Maria will play better in it however there is still a question mark on how well it can perform.
There is also the problem of keeping our defenders fit.
I am incredibly excited though to see what happens.
It's utterly depressing that Liverpool and Spurs are ahead of us given how shite they've both been. We need to start nicking points, performances or not.
If only it was that easy... We know by now they won't stay fit and they break down one by one. Hopefully we'll be able to bring in someone in january because we are playing some decent stuff and get top 4.
*crosses fingers*
I'm not worried about those two - I'm certain we will finish 4th comfortably ahead of both liverpool and Spurs.
On the other hand, it must be utterly depressing for Liverpool and Spurs only to be one point ahead after we've had the worst start in almost 30 years.
Look, can we stop focusing on our position in the table and pretend it all that matters? We're only four points off 4th - that matters more than whatever our position is. Of course, looking back on some games we should've had more points by now, but this is what happens when you bring in a manager who wants to implement his own ideas and you run into a ton of injuries as well. It's pointless to say "we spent this much money, so we should be at the top" because we're playing catch-up right now. Years of underinvestment can't be undone in one transfer window.
Should LvG have bought another central defender? Perhaps, but who were the options last summer? Let's not forget that some seasons ago there was talk about our central defence being sorted for 10-15 years with Evans, Jones and Smalling. Evans played consistently well over long periods, and both Smalling and Jones usually showed good signs when given the chance. Considering the defenders that actually looked like we could get during the summer (Vlaar, for instance) I actually preferred not signing any back then. I don't think anyone really expected those three to be injured as much as they have been, nor did I expect Evans to look shaky when actually playing and Smalling to have a brain-dead performance like yesterday. Of course, getting practically any defender during the summer would've been great in hindsight, but back then it made sense to me to go into the season with what we had (plus Rojo, of course).
At the end of the day, what really matters for me is the direction we're heading in. And the way I see it, it's the right direction. We've played against the coming champions (I really doubt anyone will catch Chelsea) and the current champions, and I frankly don't remember the last time we've done this well in two big games. Sure, we only have one point to show for it, but that's football.
So basically you think we'd be better off using our CB's in a more old fashioned way, don't bring the ball out and hold a deeper line?
Yeah, in other words, stick to defend. Let Blind and co worry about bringing the ball out of defense, we spunked almost a million pounds on new midfielders, let them do their job.
Brain freeze moment there
Maybe. But I suppose the key here would be that people trust them, the attackers - they'll deliver sooner or later, at the highest level, once the "philosophy" has been soaked up. The defenders, on the other hand, we have no real reason to trust.
Is anyone else fed up of hearing about this "philosophy"?
He just means the style he likes his teams play. Better?
Rather that than project.
So, rating out of 10 for LVG so far?
Any "it's too soon Mr Duffer" replies will be treated as 2/10.
Any "it's too soon Mr Duffer" replies will be treated as 2/10.
No. If it's only that it's taking a bloody long time for him to get it across.
For me, with a quarter of the league gone, 5/10. We're apparently playing better than last year under Moyes but is that any sort of great achievement? A big improvement in results is required between now and the halfway stage.
To be honest I don't see his creative input into this team ,I mean any of the premier league managers can do the same or even better
with this squad. But I believe he will sort it though
with this squad. But I believe he will sort it though
What else do you think it is other the playing style? People put far too much thought into things sometimes. It's obviously play style but with the language barrier and all he uses the word philosophy. Takes too long to get it across? Everywhere he's been he starts slowly while they adapt. Did you think all our new signings and a new manager would suddenly click and be perfectly fine from the off this season after having a disastrous year last year and loads of injuries that we need reserves every game?
Your remarks about Di Maria's role made me think. To be perfectly honest, I start to wonder whether LvG and his system is really what United should want.
I always thought United's biggest strength was speed and power. Direct passing, fast forward, accelerating the tempo more than any other. Overwhelming opponents with skill and shire power, especially at home. And tight defending with top speed counter attacking, especially away. To me that was the DNA of United. Maybe I’m wrong or just glorifying.
At least to me, Rooney (next to Keane, Scholes, Giggs, and many others) was the personification of that kind of football. He is still so hard to defend when he runs with the ball at full speed towards the box. And Di Maria can do exactly the same, probably even better. But those two in possession football? Seems like a waste to me.
I think the reason why at some point for United their traditional style didn't work anymore was simply that several players were too old or for other reasons over their peak. SAF simply didn't reload the roster early enough, perhaps he wasn’t thinking beyond his tenure anymore.
Then came Moyes and had to deal with a team beyond its peak. Didn’t work. And now LvG wants to establish possession football. But possession football is like chess. You make a move, you wait for your opponent's move, then you make your next move. If you are better than your opponent you will most likely succeed, eventually. But that kind of football is an eternity away from overpowering an opponent. It's more like outsmarting. With Rooney, RvP and Di Maria he doesn’t even have the perfect stars for that system, at least IMO. Aren’t they the perfect run and gun players?
A football style DNA is firmly established in a team, even in a club. It takes several years to replace it. And honestly in United’s case I'm not even sure whether this is desirable. From United it takes away something I always found unique and very admirable.
Real never tried to copy Barca. They did in fact the opposite: They added runners and gunners in order to fight them. Shouldn't United also stick to their roots? They have already three, rather four top strikers. Now add some top defenders and holding midfielders. Then you have Real 2.0, which is way closer to United's roots than a Barca copycat.
And don’t fool yourself with a Bayern comparison and hope LvG’s style will work the same way after only a few months. Bayern was never a run and gun team. They always played very rational at a rather slow tempo. Very different from anything United has played in the past.
He should have signed one of Fabregas or Kroos in the summer, I just watched Nevilles analysis and it showed quite a few interesting things, one of them being the runs Van Persie made. None of our midfielders (Not including Di Maria as it seems Van Gaals going to use him as a winger) seem capable of making those kinds of passes that RVP was looking for and it must be quite frustrating for him because he's feeding off scraps for pretty much 90minutes.
We all know Di Maria is very good at making those passes, so why isn't he played in midfield more often, surely Van Gaal wants to get the best out of his striker?
We all know Di Maria is very good at making those passes, so why isn't he played in midfield more often, surely Van Gaal wants to get the best out of his striker?
This is how I feel.
I knew it'd be tough with all the new players and trying to implement a new style but the quality of our players surely should have been able to get more than 3 wins from our fixtures. Comparatively easier than other teams who have also had to deal with changes in personnel.
It's been an awful start focusing on ourselves only with the only decent thing to look for is that other teams have stuttered too. We could be a lot further off.
Yes, RVP is still making great runs but he has also missed about 5 1-1s this season.
The biggest difference for meis that the team is comfortable in possession, against city our defenders even on the back foot played the ball instead of whacking it forward. Last season the looked like the ball had a decease and no one wanted to touch it!
We have had a bad run of injuries and Rooney's suspension which has fecked up the start we all thought we would have. My prediction was we would be top 3 this part of the season and a top 2 finish overall. I'm still positive that we can make top 3 as once we get all our players back we will get back in track.
We keep forgetting that this is a new team with a new manager and it takes time to gel together. Out of 10 I'm giving LVG 7/10, purely because his got the team believing again and we are playing attacking football
We have had a bad run of injuries and Rooney's suspension which has fecked up the start we all thought we would have. My prediction was we would be top 3 this part of the season and a top 2 finish overall. I'm still positive that we can make top 3 as once we get all our players back we will get back in track.
We keep forgetting that this is a new team with a new manager and it takes time to gel together. Out of 10 I'm giving LVG 7/10, purely because his got the team believing again and we are playing attacking football
Yep and most of them were from Di Maria throught balls and starting play through the middle.
At this stage of the season he gets a pass mark from me simply due to all the injuries we've had. We had a back four of Valencia, Carrick, McNair and Shaw for the second half against City. To lose 1-0 isn't a bad effort. You'd hope we'd do a lot better with Jones, Evans and Rafael fully fit.
We've got Crystal Palace, Arsenal, Hull and Stoke coming up. I think there is definite cause for optimism, particularly considering how we did against Chelsea and then City with ten men.
We've got Crystal Palace, Arsenal, Hull and Stoke coming up. I think there is definite cause for optimism, particularly considering how we did against Chelsea and then City with ten men.
That's a fair enough point, you can see he's trying to have them play the Dutch way where both CB's split when one brings the ball out and Blind drops between them, then they tuck back in once the pass is played by whichever CB has the ball. However given how poor our CB's are on the ball it might be better if we defended in a deeper, more traditional manner like Chelsea and Real do, concerning the CB's more with winning duels than what they do with the ball.
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