Luckhurst: United prepared to move for a holding midfielder in January

Well yes, we are pretty well stocked in all areas of the pitch. We've either got good quality or huge potential or both.

That doesn't apply to central midfield though. We could really do with a quality addition to that area.

Goalkeeping is another area but doesn't concern me as much as central midfield.
 
golden_blunder said:
no Pogba there Souness
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:) A few pointed that out, I said I included him in AM, deleted and went to put him in LW but completely forgot, that only furthers the point that we are overstocked... in every position except DM/CM and we can't let Garner go out on loan, if one of Fred/ Mctom is injured I think he would be crucial.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
:) A few pointed that out, I said I included him in AM, deleted and went to put him in LW but completely forgot, that only furthers the point that we are overstocked... in every position except DM/CM and we can't let Garner go out on loan, if one of Fred/ Mctom is injured I think he would be crucial.
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‘Forgot’ is the excuse a…

nevermind
 
it feels as though the likes of Lingard and Andreas will be here until their contracts expire unfortunately, and the same probably goes for Jones too. Best we can hope for are loan deals imo.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
That would be hugely disappointing. With Pogba playing excellently off the left, our engine room is now Fred and Mctominay with Matic or VDB (when push comes to shove) playing backup roles. That means, that our midfield is mostly energy and muscle, and what it lacks, IMO, is genuine ability on the ball and passing ability. For me, we need a playmaker in midfield, someone who can control games, someone who isn't inconsistent/erratic /clumsy in their work on the ball like Fred or Mctominay but who compliments their energy and hustle. Rice, Fred and Mctominay will be an overload of players who aren't great on the ball, IMO.
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Rice and Phillips are both miles better than anything we could start with, so i disagree that it would be disappointing.

Fred and McTom both sit deep and do the same job, because neither is good enough to play deep alone. Signing a competent DM such as Rice or Phillips would allow us to play a bit higher up, especially with Varane replacing the error prone Lindelof.

Agree there are better players on the ball, but if you signed an out and out playmaker - we'd still have to play Fred or Mctom as DM - who arent upto much or reliable enough alone.
 
Craig Ward said:
Rice and Phillips are both miles better than anything we could start with, so i disagree that it would be disappointing.

Fred and McTom both sit deep and do the same job, because neither is good enough to play deep alone. Signing a competent DM such as Rice or Phillips would allow us to play a bit higher up, especially with Varane replacing the error prone Lindelof.

Agree there are better players on the ball, but if you signed an out and out playmaker - we'd still have to play Fred or Mctom as DM - who arent upto much or reliable enough alone.
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Rice and Philips are not miles better. What evidence do you have about that?

Rice and Phillips value is above £80m right now, they are not an 80m upgrade on Fred or McTominay.

Both actually have similar flaws as McTominay, their passing isn't the best.
 
Craig Ward said:
Rice and Phillips are both miles better than anything we could start with, so i disagree that it would be disappointing.

Fred and McTom both sit deep and do the same job, because neither is good enough to play deep alone. Signing a competent DM such as Rice or Phillips would allow us to play a bit higher up, especially with Varane replacing the error prone Lindelof.

Agree there are better players on the ball, but if you signed an out and out playmaker - we'd still have to play Fred or Mctom as DM - who arent upto much or reliable enough alone.
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Say you're detached from reality without saying you're detached from reality
 
We should throw McT in as the sole DM, and get Donny into the side.

Give it 3-4 games and see how it goes....we've got a stronger defence now and stronger attack. It can work
 
Genuinely don't see what Rice gives us that McTominay doesn't when he's playing to his full potential - it's just his consistency he needs to work on.
 
sugar_kane said:
Genuinely don't see what Rice gives us that McTominay doesn't when he's playing to his full potential - it's just his consistency he needs to work on.
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he sits deeper and his positioning is better

I don't think McT is as good as Rice in that role - and I'm not a huge Rice fan either
 
sugar_kane said:
Genuinely don't see what Rice gives us that McTominay doesn't when he's playing to his full potential - it's just his consistency he needs to work on.
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McTominay is a box to box player, Rice is a defensive midfielder. Rice understands defensive positioning, covering space, holding position in the midfield to close gaps, and shows himself to receive the ball as a deep midfielder better than what McTominay does. All mental parts to the game that are very hard to coach. We need an actual defensive midfielder in our team the way we want to play, and McTominay just isn't one.
 
MadMike said:
Say you're detached from reality without saying you're detached from reality
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Hes not wrong? Both are natural defensive midfielders with their positioning and play style which only Matic is in our squad. McTominay or Fred are not, they're box to box players. We need a sitting midfielder if we want to toss Pogba and Bruno in the middle in front.
 
Craig Ward said:
Rice and Phillips are both miles better than anything we could start with, so i disagree that it would be disappointing.

Fred and McTom both sit deep and do the same job, because neither is good enough to play deep alone. Signing a competent DM such as Rice or Phillips would allow us to play a bit higher up, especially with Varane replacing the error prone Lindelof.

Agree there are better players on the ball, but if you signed an out and out playmaker - we'd still have to play Fred or Mctom as DM - who arent upto much or reliable enough alone.
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Nah, they're not. They're both solid Def Mids, arguably better in the defensive element than Fred or McT (positioning, timing of tackle, physicality) but neither are better going forward, never mind miles better.

Would I feel more comfortable with a sole Def Mid in either of them... probably. For the stupid prices being rumoured for them (usual English tax), they'd have to be a huge step up ... they're not.
 
Tarrou said:
he sits deeper and his positioning is better

I don't think McT is as good as Rice in that role - and I'm not a huge Rice fan either
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Correct. You can add awareness as as well, McT doesn't track runners or sense danger nearly as good as Rice.

But that's because Rice is a DM and McT is a CM.

It's a question of what we want/need. I'm leaning towards us needing a DM.

However both Fred and McT was really good vs Leeds, so we might get away with not having a specialist DM, at least in most games.
 
bosnian_red said:
Hes not wrong? Both are natural defensive midfielders with their positioning and play style which only Matic is in our squad. McTominay or Fred are not, they're box to box players. We need a sitting midfielder if we want to toss Pogba and Bruno in the middle in front.
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I don't see Bruno and Pogba working well consistently in the same midfield. Pogba s move to the left is just about right.They're both too attacking and creative to work with one DM IMO. We should focus ok strenghening our two rather than shoehorning Pogba into it.
 
bosnian_red said:
McTominay is a box to box player, Rice is a defensive midfielder. Rice understands defensive positioning, covering space, holding position in the midfield to close gaps, and shows himself to receive the ball as a deep midfielder better than what McTominay does. All mental parts to the game that are very hard to coach. We need an actual defensive midfielder in our team the way we want to play, and McTominay just isn't one.
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Do we? Rice is a destroyer and we've never targeted that type of limited player, his passing is not an upgrade on what we have.
 
We're not signing anyone else, we can't sell anybody and the Glazers don't want a net spend of £100m in a covid economy. We haven't seriously been linked to any midfielder so far, so clearly Ole doesn't consider it a priority (I think he's wrong but it's his call).
 
mu4c_20le said:
Do we? Rice is a destroyer and we've never targeted that type of limited player, his passing is not an upgrade on what we have.
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In my view, we need a new #6 to replace Matic. We had the fifth best defensive record in the league last year - it needs to improve. We're also trying to sign Pogba up to a long-term deal for big money - the only way he can work in midfield is with someone next to him who can do the defensive work of two players.

They don't necessarily need to be "limited", either - upgrading on the passing ability of McTominay/Fred is hardly a tall order.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I don't see Bruno and Pogba working well consistently in the same midfield. Pogba s move to the left is just about right.They're both too attacking and creative to work with one DM IMO. We should focus ok strenghening our two rather than shoehorning Pogba into it.
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I agree, but if we do keep Pogba then it's the only hope for it tbh. Pogba adapting his own game a bit and getting a true DM as a partner.
 
I keep reading this title and thinking - what does it mean by “midfielder is our preference”? Reads like we just want to make another signing - we’d prefer a midfielder but if it turns out to be another reserve goalkeeper, so be it.
 
bosnian_red said:
Hes not wrong? Both are natural defensive midfielders with their positioning and play style which only Matic is in our squad. McTominay or Fred are not, they're box to box players. We need a sitting midfielder if we want to toss Pogba and Bruno in the middle in front.
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If he's not wrong it can only be because he's beyond wrong.

The post he quoted says we need a playmaker in DM more than an enforcer and that a midfield that swaps one of McFred with Phillips or Rice is not any more savvy on the ball than our current midfield. Then the guy responds to that by saying Phillips and Rice are miles better to what we have. Presumably that means also in possession, since that was very much the point raised by the person he quoted. I'm not aware of any stats proving Phillips and/or Rice being any better in possession and passing than McFred.

A sitting midfielder can also be a playmaker (see Jorginho or Kroos). He doesn't have to be just a defender. Pogba and Bruno are extremely unlikely to be starting games centrally together, whoever the DM is, against capable opposition. A single player can't solve that problem.
 
bosnian_red said:
We need a sitting midfielder if we want to toss Pogba and Bruno in the middle in front.
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But we need an elite level one, not Phillips or Rice - they are not THAT good.

We’ve seen Barella at the WC, for example - he is much better than Rice as a player.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Do we? Rice is a destroyer and we've never targeted that type of limited player, his passing is not an upgrade on what we have.
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Rice is a defensive midfielder who holds his position well and covers space well. If there is any hope for Pogba and Bruno in midfield (which I disagree with anyway), the only hope for it is with a Rice behind them to hold the midfield together defensively.

If Pogba goes, then it's a different case. But we still need that defensive solidity and positioning along with the passing in midfield. Things are just less clear what the right balance is and who we should target. Between the two though, we need the defensive positioning and someone to just be secure and not be careless with the ball, not constantly try to drive forward and dribble with the ball, and we also need the on ball progressive passing to Bruno/Rashford/Sancho. A player who will know how to position himself in space to always receive the ball and turn and pass it forward and control the tempo. A Rice and Pogba midfield has a chance to work, but if we lose Pogba then we just need another pairing altogether and there isn't really that many options out there.
 
Alemar said:
But we need an elite level one, not Phillips or Rice - they are not THAT good.

We’ve seen Barella at the WC, for example - he is much better than Rice as a player.
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Barella isn't a sitting midfielder. He was used as the advanced midfielder of the 3 by Mancini. Jorginho was the sitter and Veratti/Locatelli was the 2nd deeper midfielder with more license to roam. Barella was closest to being a box to box.

Rice is an excellent player IMO, yes he has room to improve with his passing but he is very secure and safe with the ball, doesn't make careless mistakes with it like McTominay and Fred both do, and off of it, defensively, he is excellent and would tick everything we need from that perspective.
 
bosnian_red said:
Barella isn't a sitting midfielder. He was used as the advanced midfielder of the 3 by Mancini. Jorginho was the sitter and Veratti/Locatelli was the 2nd deeper midfielder with more license to roam. Barella was closest to being a box to box.

Rice is an excellent player IMO, yes he has room to improve with his passing but he is very secure and safe with the ball, doesn't make careless mistakes with it like McTominay and Fred both do, and off of it, defensively, he is excellent and would tick everything we need from that perspective.
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That's just patently not true. He also plays for West Ham, with zero pressure. When the pressure was on at the WC, I think he made plenty.
 
MadMike said:
Pogba and Bruno are extremely unlikely to be starting games centrally together, whoever the DM is, against capable opposition. A single player can't solve that problem.
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My whole point is that if we keep Pogba as we seem to be trying to do, then there has to be a view on how to make it work. And the only way to make it work is by using a pure DM like Rice.

Your other point about a sitting midfielder being a playmaker would work if Jorginho didn't have Kante next to him being a pure destroying box to box player, and Kroos didn't have Casemiro being the actual defensive midfielder behind Kroos and Modric. So that player is still needed.

The reason why Rice would help us on the ball is he makes fewer mistakes/giveaways than McTominay or Fred do (a huge problem with them), and the hope is it could make Pogba work in the midfield with Bruno. I'm skeptical anyway, but defensively I think Rice is a beast anyway.
 
Lash said:
That's just patently not true. He also plays for West Ham, with zero pressure. When the pressure was on at the WC, I think he made plenty.
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Compared to all midfielders in the big leagues:
Rice:
Dispossessed per 90 - 0.64, 78th percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 0.73, 58th percentile

Fred:
Dispossessed per 90 - 1.27, 26th percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 1.08, 25th percentile

McTominay:
Dispossessed per 90 - 1.05, 42nd percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 1.23, 17th percentile

It's blatantly true and not all that close. They have careless losses of possession and since they are also poor positionally, it leads to free runs at our back 4. Matic conversely is at 0.42 for miscontrols (90th percentile) and 0.85 for being dispossessed (59th percentile), along with being good positionally. It just shows he's more secure and takes less risks with running with the ball. The last thing you want your deepest midfielder to do is to try to dribble his way out of trouble all the time and give it away. You want a secure deep midfielder, and Rice is that. Fernandinho is elite in that department, Jorginho excellent as well.
 
bosnian_red said:
My whole point is that if we keep Pogba as we seem to be trying to do, then there has to be a view on how to make it work. And the only way to make it work is by using a pure DM like Rice.
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No, because the other obvious way to make it work is like we’ve been doing the last 6 months by playing him on the left.

bosnian_red said:
Your other point about a sitting midfielder being a playmaker would work if Jorginho didn't have Kante next to him being a pure destroying box to box player, and Kroos didn't have Casemiro being the actual defensive midfielder behind Kroos and Modric. So that player is still needed.
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The job of the box-to-box presser and harrier is done by Fred. We don’t need another such player. Fred’s one of the best at it based on observation and stats.

bosnian_red said:
The reason why Rice would help us on the ball is he makes fewer mistakes/giveaways than McTominay or Fred do (a huge problem with them), and the hope is it could make Pogba work in the midfield with Bruno. I'm skeptical anyway, but defensively I think Rice is a beast anyway.
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He makes fewer mistakes because the vast majority of his passes are sideways or backwards lay-offs. I’m completely unconvinced this would cut the mustard at United.
 
MadMike said:
No, because the other obvious way to make it work is like we’ve been doing the last 6 months by playing him on the left.



The job of the box-to-box presser and harrier is done by Fred. We don’t need another such player. Fred’s one of the best at it based on observation and stats.



He makes fewer mistakes because the vast majority of his passes are sideways or backwards lay-offs. I’m completely unconvinced this would cut the mustard at United.
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We've used Pogba on the left out of necessity. Rashford and Greenwood are both inside forwards, and not creators. We needed a creator out wide which Pogba provided us, but now we have Sancho to be the wide creator. We also had/have no defensive sitting midfielder to partner Pogba. With Sancho, we can have Greenwood or Rashford on the opposite flank to him, and move Pogba in midfield but need a defensive midfielder who will sit.

Yes Fred does well with his pressing, but he's also a box to box player. He's not a sitting midfielder, and he's pretty careless. I'm not talking about being adventurous with passing and giving it away. I'm talking about trying to dribble his way out of trouble and losing it, or just miscontrolling it and leading to danger. Statistically, it isn't close between McFred and Rice in that department. It's not like McTominay is much of a passer anyway, he provides very little in the way of progressive passing. We essentially split the defensive work rate between McTominay and Fred because neither do a good enough job on their own. Rice is far more rounded defensively along with being excellent positionally, but he's also secure on the ball. He isn't adventurous, but he's a player that would give a chance to Pogba actually being able to work as an 8, in which case our ball progression from deep is a huge positive compared to McFred.
 
I think we're done transfer wise arent we? Linguard and Perrera out should generate £40m. Phil Jones we probably couldnt give away at this point.
Williams out on loan, Garner out on loan but we can always call back if we are decimated injury wise. I love a transfer as much as the next man but cant see us going again - DVB has to get some games this season. Him and Matic to cover for Fred and Mct.......actually when you say it like that it does look a bit short!!
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
That's a fair point haha! I even wrote him but deleted him from "AM" as I was going to put him "LW"

Our squad could genuinely cut: Jones, Williams, Pereira, Lingard, Grant, Kovar and one of Mata or James and we would still have 2 decent options per position.

EDIT: Even if you put sale values on these players, Jones (£0m), Williams (£5m), Pereira (£5m), Lingard (£10m), Grant (£0m), Kovar (£0m), Mata (£0) & James (£10m) = £30m

That feels realistic in terms of what we would ACTUALLY get, I see so many people manage to get £80m from them and it's ridiculous
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There is a serious undervalue going on here.
 
bosnian_red said:
Compared to all midfielders in the big leagues:
Rice:
Dispossessed per 90 - 0.64, 78th percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 0.73, 58th percentile

Fred:
Dispossessed per 90 - 1.27, 26th percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 1.08, 25th percentile

McTominay:
Dispossessed per 90 - 1.05, 42nd percentile
Miscontrols per 90 - 1.23, 17th percentile

It's blatantly true and not all that close. They have careless losses of possession and since they are also poor positionally, it leads to free runs at our back 4. Matic conversely is at 0.42 for miscontrols (90th percentile) and 0.85 for being dispossessed (59th percentile), along with being good positionally. It just shows he's more secure and takes less risks with running with the ball. The last thing you want your deepest midfielder to do is to try to dribble his way out of trouble all the time and give it away. You want a secure deep midfielder, and Rice is that. Fernandinho is elite in that department, Jorginho excellent as well.
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I don't doubt those stats, but he's playing in a shite team, with zero pressure top perform and don't exactly play quick passing football. Your quoting of Jorginho is pertinent, who was a standout at the euros in that role and played against Rice in the final and was found lacking. If you could get the same stats at the Euros, I would hazard a guess as he came out pretty poor in that respect.

I tried with fbref, but not sure it's the right data https://fbref.com/tiny/3DPdZ
 
arthurka said:
There is a serious undervalue going on here.
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How so? Bear in mind the wages they are on, Lingard has 10 months on a contract, Williams has proved nothing and James cost us £19m and will now command higher wages to a lesser club that he inevitably moves to, what do you think?
 
Even if we had the money I would rather go into the season with mcfred than get Rice and block our chances of getting a top class holding midfielder / DM in the next window.

Also we are not going to shift Jones unless we pay him off and release him or we wait another 2 seasons for his contract to expire. Who will even take him on loan at partial wages. He doesn't look like he can pass a medical.

Peirera, Lingard should really get sold before the window shuts at whatever we can get considering their high wages.
 
MadMike said:
No, because the other obvious way to make it work is like we’ve been doing the last 6 months by playing him on the left.



The job of the box-to-box presser and harrier is done by Fred. We don’t need another such player. Fred’s one of the best at it based on observation and stats.



He makes fewer mistakes because the vast majority of his passes are sideways or backwards lay-offs. I’m completely unconvinced this would cut the mustard at United.
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I agree with that post. We can either sign a top top DM and pair him with Pogba (which I don't think will work well anyway), or sign defensively minded all-round player who we'll pair with either of Fred/McTominay/van de Beek. I am sure the second option is better and more possible.
Pogba plays best and feels most comforteable on the left, we need to stop this madness with shoehorning him into midfield.
 
Apart from Neves I don’t know who we could sign that exactly fits the mould we are looking for. Rice just isn’t good enough on the ball and while a Rice-Mctominay midfield would be combative there is a real limit in how they are able to control a game which neves could achieve to a much higher Standard
 
The only one that might happen is camavinga in the last few days of the window if we can sell a few first, if that doesn't come off we'll go with what we have.
 
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