Luckhurst: United prepared to move for a holding midfielder in January

bosnian_red said:
We've used Pogba on the left out of necessity. Rashford and Greenwood are both inside forwards, and not creators. We needed a creator out wide which Pogba provided us, but now we have Sancho to be the wide creator. We also had/have no defensive sitting midfielder to partner Pogba. With Sancho, we can have Greenwood or Rashford on the opposite flank to him, and move Pogba in midfield but need a defensive midfielder who will sit.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't believe with any DM on god's green earth we can make Bruno & Pogba midfield work consistently well. Even if you have someone who's sitting like Rice, you have no one else doing ball recoveries and pressing. And both Bruno and Pogba are frequently careless in possession trying to dribble or play ambitious balls.

csyaiXd.png


Rice's defensive ability is not even that good to excuse how poor the rest of his game is. The team would be significantly better with a good, reliable passer in midfield who knows how to sit. We need a Carrick-style player, not Rice.

bosnian_red said:
Yes Fred does well with his pressing, but he's also a box to box player. He's not a sitting midfielder, and he's pretty careless. I'm not talking about being adventurous with passing and giving it away. I'm talking about trying to dribble his way out of trouble and losing it, or just miscontrolling it and leading to danger. Statistically, it isn't close between McFred and Rice in that department. It's not like McTominay is much of a passer anyway, he provides very little in the way of progressive passing.

We essentially split the defensive work rate between McTominay and Fred because neither do a good enough job on their own. Rice is far more rounded defensively along with being excellent positionally, but he's also secure on the ball. He isn't adventurous, but he's a player that would give a chance to Pogba actually being able to work as an 8, in which case our ball progression from deep is a huge positive compared to McFred.
Click to expand...

Every team does that including West Ham who have Soucek and England who had Phillips to split the work with Rice. Nothing I've seen anywhere suggests that Rice is as well rounded defensively as you say. Never mind good enough to cover for the work-rate of both Fred and McTominay, allowing us to drop them both for Pogba. In fact stats suggest that he doesn't reach either individually, never mind both combined.
 
Last edited:
@MadMike is right, Pogba is too much of a defensive liability in the double pivot no matter who the other midfielder is. Right now a young midfielder at a club who will sell easily, like Camavinga or Tchouameni, seem the most likely if we are going to add some quality to the weakest area of the team.
 
Jacky Quacky said:
Apart from Neves I don’t know who we could sign that exactly fits the mould we are looking for. Rice just isn’t good enough on the ball and while a Rice-Mctominay midfield would be combative there is a real limit in how they are able to control a game which neves could achieve to a much higher Standard
Click to expand...

Locatelli, but he wants to go to Juve.
 
It’s Camavinga, we are holding out for him and hoping to shift Lingard and Andreas. It’ll all start to play out one way or another in the next week or so. If he doesn’t come we will snap up Neves and it should be an easier transfer to do. Nice work either way. Both around the same price and wage
 
bosskeano said:
see that is where i disagree b/c McFred are both CDM's as they have to play next to each other as they aren't true CDM's nor are they true box to box guys who create a lot of goals or assists...probably why we call them McFred. Donny i think could be a box to box guy but fuking hell we haven't seen enough of him to really know. As i type this the more i think about it the more confused i am just simply about the balance of the midfield in that we don't have a true CDM and we don't have a true #8 to play higher up closer to Bruno. McFred just are the donkey grunt workers simply to allow Bruno to be glorious at what he does.
Click to expand...

They are both CDM but they are not true CDM? That contradiction is because they are CMs. Ie box to box players. But they have to sit deeper to provide protection without a DM like Matic.

They operate vertically as opposed to side to side like matic. It's not output that determines the position (that would make martial of last season a fullback) And even if you consider output McT scored many goals last season arriving in the box while Fred also had plenty of...attempts to put it nicely.

You don't have to make or score a lot of goals to be a box to box player. Some are more attacking or defensive than others just like full backs. I would say Fred is a more defensive b2b, McT a more balanced one. While you want a more attacking one (Pogba?).
 
Last edited:
Ali Dia said:
It’s Camavinga, we are holding out for him and hoping to shift Lingard and Andreas.
Click to expand...

Just so long as it isn't Harry Winks...!!
There is always that dread with United, this late into a window that something stupid is just about to happen.
 
Ali Dia said:
It’s Camavinga, we are holding out for him and hoping to shift Lingard and Andreas. It’ll all start to play out one way or another in the next week or so. If he doesn’t come we will snap up Neves and it should be an easier transfer to do. Nice work either way. Both around the same price and wage
Click to expand...
What's your thoughts on Neves? Is he any improvement on Fred or McTominay for us? Passing-wise I'd say yes but if we are trying to fit Pogba in then I think he's one of the worst choices we could made.
 
RUCK4444 said:
What's your thoughts on Neves? Is he any improvement on Fred or McTominay for us? Passing-wise I'd say yes but if we are trying to fit Pogba in then I think he's one of the worst choices we could made.
Click to expand...

Neves isnt good enough to be with Pogba in the double pivot, and that wont be the reason we will get him. He would be instead of either McT or Fred, and rotate with them.

And Camavinga isnt good enough to be a starter for us.
 
RUCK4444 said:
What's your thoughts on Neves? Is he any improvement on Fred or McTominay for us? Passing-wise I'd say yes but if we are trying to fit Pogba in then I think he's one of the worst choices we could made.
Click to expand...

I really don’t think Pogba comes into the thinking with this signing. It’s a rotation for Fred and McT and someone to eventually phase Matic out. Pogba will keep his free role off the left and it’ll be up to Rashford to dislodge him. Traditionally Pogba gets a longish injury every season anyway so Rashford shouldn’t be waiting too long to get back in. Pogba doesn’t work in any central 2. Pogba and neves get the runaround. Pogba and Kante get the runaround. It is what it is. Let him play higher up and we can enjoy watching him and he can enjoy his football. This is also the only way to get him and Bruno into the same team and not ship soft goals.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
How so? Bear in mind the wages they are on, Lingard has 10 months on a contract, Williams has proved nothing and James cost us £19m and will now command higher wages to a lesser club that he inevitably moves to, what do you think?
Click to expand...
James was 15 plus 3 million in add ons, which he probably hasn’t achieved, so not really 19 million. Ole appears to like him, so he’ll stay.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
How so? Bear in mind the wages they are on, Lingard has 10 months on a contract, Williams has proved nothing and James cost us £19m and will now command higher wages to a lesser club that he inevitably moves to, what do you think?
Click to expand...
They are worth more to the squad that's all I am saying. To replace these Utd would need to fork out a whole lot more. Williams is a young fullback that has shown good potential and with a good system and game time is likely to become a very solid player. Lingard has played a bunch of games for Utd and England plus his time at West Ham he showed his quality. James has his uses and we would possibly only sell if we would recoup the transfer fee. Don't see the need to sell only for the heck of it and having to buy for more money to fill these slots with the same quality.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
Fourth id say. I can see Pogba being predominantly used in the front 4 this season since he's been a revelation in the spells hes played there. So 2 from Pogba, Sancho and Rashford with James and Mata providing depth.
Click to expand...

Greenwood too.
 
Ali Dia said:
It’s Camavinga, we are holding out for him and hoping to shift Lingard and Andreas. It’ll all start to play out one way or another in the next week or so. If he doesn’t come we will snap up Neves and it should be an easier transfer to do. Nice work either way. Both around the same price and wage
Click to expand...

Camavinga is still quite rough but with high potential. You're buying for the future with him. He probably needs to either stay there at Rennes or move elsewhere else first, a place like Dortmund, for 3-4 more years to build experience.

I severely doubt that he will come and be a starter for United, in the EPL, at age18-19 and in a position of high responsibility such as DM/CM. It's not he same as throwing Greenwood on the wing and seeing how he does, an out of sorts DM can cost you the game.
 
theklr said:
Neves isnt good enough to be with Pogba in the double pivot, and that wont be the reason we will get him. He would be instead of either McT or Fred, and rotate with them.

And Camavinga isnt good enough to be a starter for us.
Click to expand...
This is why I don't think we will get him. He doesn't hugely improve what we have and Ole obviously wants to keep Pogba and get him in the starting 11.

We should be looking at elite level DM's IMO. Or players that can develop into that level player (not sure if Camavinga can become that player for us.)

Somebody at Ndidi's level is what we need.
 
Ali Dia said:
I really don’t think Pogba comes into the thinking with this signing. It’s a rotation for Fred and McT and someone to eventually phase Matic out. Pogba will keep his free role off the left and it’ll be up to Rashford to dislodge him. Traditionally Pogba gets a longish injury every season anyway so Rashford shouldn’t be waiting too long to get back in. Pogba doesn’t work in any central 2. Pogba and neves get the runaround. Pogba and Kante get the runaround. It is what it is. Let him play higher up and we can enjoy watching him and he can enjoy his football. This is also the only way to get him and Bruno into the same team and not ship soft goals.
Click to expand...
I know it's a popular conclusion here that Pogba cannot play in a midfield 2 however I disagree to an extent. Especially with a big improvement in Varane being behind him, allowing us to push up a bit.

I don't think Ole want's to keep Pogba and increase his wage to play him solely off the left. I also think Ole wants Rashford on the pitch as much as possible. Therefore I think, provided we renew Pogba's contract, that we will be looking for an elite level DM to partner him in the pivot. Which allows us to get all of our best players on the pitch.

I honestly think it can be done for the vast majority of games.
 
bosnian_red said:
I agree, but if we do keep Pogba then it's the only hope for it tbh. Pogba adapting his own game a bit and getting a true DM as a partner.
Click to expand...
Why can't Pogba continue at LW? I'm seeing so many here want a DM to partner Pogba when he's just put in a sublime peformance from the left and played there last season as well.
 
RUCK4444 said:
This is why I don't think we will get him. He doesn't hugely improve what we have and Ole obviously wants to keep Pogba and get him in the starting 11.

We should be looking at elite level DM's IMO. Or players that can develop into that level player (not sure if Camavinga can become that player for us.)

Somebody at Ndidi's level is what we need.
Click to expand...

Ndidi and Pogba won’t work eithe imo. No one player can cover those gaps. If Kante can’t Ndidi can’t either. There’s no point in buying someone to help Pogba to play deep central in a two when it just doesn’t suit his game. Also there’s no small matter of him possibly not being here this time next year. A Camavinga or Neves purchase just solidifies the approach that we are currently going for and having success with and makes more sense if we are thinking beyond this season and the constant unlock Pogba question. We’ve unlocked him on the left and it’s good. I’m actually still annoyed Ole hadn’t taken Rashford out for him on the left full time by April at the latest. It would have been a big call but that’s the name of the game. Loving Pogba on the left!
 
Red_toad said:
James was 15 plus 3 million in add ons, which he probably hasn’t achieved, so not really 19 million. Ole appears to like him, so he’ll stay.
Click to expand...

That doesn't have a lot to do with my post, I wasn't commenting on the likely hood we sell him, I was simply postulating at what value he might be sold considering our past at selling
 
arthurka said:
They are worth more to the squad that's all I am saying. To replace these Utd would need to fork out a whole lot more. Williams is a young fullback that has shown good potential and with a good system and game time is likely to become a very solid player. Lingard has played a bunch of games for Utd and England plus his time at West Ham he showed his quality. James has his uses and we would possibly only sell if we would recoup the transfer fee. Don't see the need to sell only for the heck of it and having to buy for more money to fill these slots with the same quality.
Click to expand...

Again I didn't say anything about whether we will sell them and I actually agree regarding their replacement cost. I'm simply saying if we were to sell them, that's the likely amount we will get for them all things considered, not what I think they are worth.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Again I didn't say anything about whether we will sell them and I actually agree regarding their replacement cost. I'm simply saying if we were to sell them, that's the likely amount we will get for them all things considered, not what I think they are worth.
Click to expand...
No I understand that and your numbers might actually be close to what is being offered because of our idiotic wage structure. And there in lies the problem that's the reason we haven't shipped out a bunch of players during Covid.
 
Ikon said:
Trippier would be a good addition, but not if we spunk £25m on him, and neglect the Midfield.
How can Ole possibly think it's fine to go into such a big season with a pool of Mata, Matic & McFred, it could cost him his job.
Click to expand...
This is my thought exactly. If Ole doesn't bring in a quality midfielder, a player specialized in the defensive midfield area. I think we will still find it difficult to play smooth football. The transition from defense to the offense will struggle as usual. Teams like City, Liverpool, and Chelsea will run circles around our midfielders. I think Ole is taking a huge risk by not recruiting somebody in the middle of the park. I also think we need a striker but I also think that's an area we'll concentrate on in the upcoming windows and it can be corrected because our offensive players are pretty good right now but the problem in midfield is urgent and requires immediate attention. By the look of things, we are paying the 100 million pounds for the 2 players in a term of 5 years which means we still have money to buy the likes of Neves or Calvin Phillips, who will definitely make a huge difference in this team. I definitely don't believe in Fred or Mctominay to handle that area alone and sometimes not even in a double pivot.
 
Ali Dia said:
Ndidi and Pogba won’t work eithe imo. No one player can cover those gaps. If Kante can’t Ndidi can’t either. There’s no point in buying someone to help Pogba to play deep central in a two when it just doesn’t suit his game. Also there’s no small matter of him possibly not being here this time next year. A Camavinga or Neves purchase just solidifies the approach that we are currently going for and having success with and makes more sense if we are thinking beyond this season and the constant unlock Pogba question. We’ve unlocked him on the left and it’s good. I’m actually still annoyed Ole hadn’t taken Rashford out for him on the left full time by April at the latest. It would have been a big call but that’s the name of the game. Loving Pogba on the left!
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm happy with him on the left, imo we have to get him and Bruno on the pitch together as much as possible. Whether Ole sees him as a long term rotational player with Rasford off the left remains to be seen. My gut tells me that Ole wants to make the pivot work with Pogba but he knows it won't work with the current players (as we all do.) Will be interesting to see what his plan is for Pogba if he stays.

I still think against most teams that a partnership like Pogba and Ndidi for example, with Varane and Maguire behind them allowing us to push up can work. We can even instruct AWB to sit and tuck in to help out if required, a bit like France do with one of their wingers to help out. I honestly don't think it's a major issue like many believe it is, sure we wouldn't play it against the likes of Liverpool or City but there's plenty of games where this would be sufficient and in my opinion more progressive and dominating. Pogba's pressing against Leeds was the highest in the team and ask yourself how many actual Pogba errors have led to goals in the past in the pivot, not anywhere near as bad as we like to make out.
 
People are vastly overhyping this whole "Pogba on the left" thing. Yes he played high up the pitch some last year but last weekend he was basically a left sided 8 the entire game if you watched.

And Pogba playing in a pivot working well has nothing to do with him as much as it has to do with Bruno. There's a reason those two dominated after the restart during lockdown with Matic behind, it's not because Pogba has no idea how to defend/tackle. Bruno played more connected to the midfield, and added in enough work rate defensively that we were fine, along with being dominant on the ball.

People get so obsessed with this thought of "midfield balance" and everyone seems to want some sort of "destroying" midfielder when in reality the best midfields have had 1 or 0 of those types of players. Kante is obviously the peak but he's also much better carrying the ball and playing while pressed than people give him credit for. Pogba was also much better last year defensively than anyone gives him credit for.
 
Ikon said:
Trippier would be a good addition, but not if we spunk £25m on him, and neglect the Midfield.
How can Ole possibly think its fine to go into such a big season with a pool of Mata, Matic & McFred, it could cost him his job.
Click to expand...
And go without decent RB option? That is the biggest single-point-of-failure the team has currently across all positions. We got away so far with it, but this has to be mitigated on priority, either by keeping Dalot or buying a player.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Why can't Pogba continue at LW? I'm seeing so many here want a DM to partner Pogba when he's just put in a sublime peformance from the left and played there last season as well.
Click to expand...
Because we have Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood who can and will play on the wings this season. Sancho is replacing the creativity Pogba offers from the wing, while offering more pace and goal threat and natural width. We can play Rashford or Greenwood opposite to him. And we can improve on our midfield duo behind by using Pogba there while still having creativity out wide with Sancho now. We just need a holding mid to balance Pogba if possible.

Pogba on the left I liked last year, but it's not necessary anymore with Sancho. We used it to balance the inside forward on one wing with a creator, but Sancho will have that role and be better against most opposition there anyway.
 
Tough to figure out the financing here. In the time since it was stated we needed to sell to buy we have generated something like 5m in a loan fee for Axel and benefitted to the tune of about 4m from the Lukakau deal. I don't think fees were involved in the other loans we have done nor will there be other than a token amount for Brandon maybe. The terms suggested for Pereira to go to Flamengo essentially would lose us money and so all told we have raised about enough to buy 20% of Camavinga. Shifting Lingard is the only realistic avenue to a decent fee left to us but with it dragging on we might not have time to reinvest the money even if it does happen.

Of course we can do deals with structured payments. Sancho is being split over 5 seasons and Varane over 4 so we potentially have raised the first years installment on a bigger deal but not all selling clubs will be willing to wait for payment as they need to use the fee to secure replacements.

I think we are now looking at using what we have for the first half of the season and we are more likely to see a possible January signing if there is an obvious deal for a player we really want. We might be willing to sell a couple then too, James might be moved once Rashford is back and potentially Jones could move if he proves his fitness.
 
People underestimate how important McFred are in the overall balance of our team. Are they perfect? No of course not, but they have been the backbone of a team that is improving and that do not lose many football matches.

The back-of-a-postage-stamp solution of 'buy a top class CDM' is with all respect just Football Manager talk really. It makes perfect sense on a formation diagram because it looks like a sure-fire way of getting more of our best players into the team, but it fails to consider the cost of that and how it would actually effect the balance and understanding in this team, in a season that has already begun. It will create more problems than it will solve, unless people genuinely think that you can just slot a new midfielder into a new midfield system and everything will just magically work (particularly when you also add a new centre back into the equation).

I'm all for getting someone like Camavinga in because he could phased into this team over time and would potentially be the first piece in our next midfield, but someone like Neves? No thanks. I think people need to come to terms with the idea that McFred is going to be our go-to midfield for this season and quite possibly the next too, and I'm fine with that as long as we are doing the right things to plan for their successors.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
People are vastly overhyping this whole "Pogba on the left" thing. Yes he played high up the pitch some last year but last weekend he was basically a left sided 8 the entire game if you watched.

And Pogba playing in a pivot working well has nothing to do with him as much as it has to do with Bruno. There's a reason those two dominated after the restart during lockdown with Matic behind, it's not because Pogba has no idea how to defend/tackle. Bruno played more connected to the midfield, and added in enough work rate defensively that we were fine, along with being dominant on the ball.

People get so obsessed with this thought of "midfield balance" and everyone seems to want some sort of "destroying" midfielder when in reality the best midfields have had 1 or 0 of those types of players. Kante is obviously the peak but he's also much better carrying the ball and playing while pressed than people give him credit for. Pogba was also much better last year defensively than anyone gives him credit for.
Click to expand...
Totally agree. especially the bolded.

I’ve asked many many times but nobody will show me how many goals we’ve directly conceded due to a Pogba error / loss of possession.
 
RUCK4444 said:
Totally agree. especially the bolded.

I’ve asked many many times but nobody will show me how many goals we’ve directly conceded due to a Pogba error / loss of possession.
Click to expand...

Won't be more than Fred gave up in the second half if last season.

It was near constant for him towards the end.
 
It would appear nobody can agree on a midfielder who would be an instant first-teamer and supply exactly what we need. Probably explains why we are unlikely to make a signing.
 
Get Pogba on the left and get a centre midfielder, giving us three first-team options of Fred, McTominay and New Midfielder, with Matic being the back up.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Get Pogba on the left and get a centre midfielder, giving us three first-team options of Fred, McTominay and New Midfielder, with Matic being the back up.
Click to expand...
I'm afraid they think it's Donny... good news is Andreas & Jesse are moving. I'm still fairly optimistic with Romano's confirmed interest with certain French talent and Luckhurst saying we're not done.

This week will be slow, but the next one should be fun. Fingers crossed.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Won't be more than Fred gave up in the second half if last season.

It was near constant for him towards the end.
Click to expand...
Yeah he’s had worse spells for it and much more costly mistakes than Pogba.

This notion that Pogba can’t be played at the base of midfield regardless of who partners him etc is so overblown.

Yes at the very top level against the toughest opponents you might question it but the majority of the time it would be fine.

Not to mention the huge benefit of having him on the pitch with his output and just general progressive passing far outweighs the handful of times he loses possession or doesn’t track a runner. It’s a game of averages and you take the option of that yields the most benefit overall.
 
We shouldn't try to find the perfect partner for Pogba (for a number of reasons). What we should do, and I think it's possible this window, is to find a player who will complement Fred, McTominay and possibly van de Beek - all round defensive minded midfielder. The truth is all of those 3 players mentioned above feel more comfortable in a box-to-box role, and neither is close to being good enough to play DM role, but at the same time they don't need ultra cover like Pogba, meaning I don't think we need Kante's next coming for it to work.

Then we just need to find another midfielder next year and we're a complete team to challenge.

I'd only use Pogba in midfield if we're chasing a score and we have firing Rashford / Sancho on the left wing. I really really like him there. Or when we're cruising comfortably towards the end of the game.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.