Luka Modric / Signs for Real Madrid

tintedsepia said:
I'm always shocked that United fans are still calling for a DM. We've never had one. Carrick is not a DM. He is actually a creative midfield player with a range of expansive first time passing - a rolls royce of a midfield player. however the job he is being asked to do is to anchor the midfield and keep it moving. That is not defensive!
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Anchoring midfield has always been a defensive job. That is why Carrick, who is more adept with his defensive game does it for us instead of a Scholes.


tintedsepia said:
Makes me laugh when people call Javi Martinez a defensive midfield player.
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That is because like so many like you simply don't understand the term.

Players who anchor midfield are defensive midfielders. So are holding players & the vast majority have never been the limited players most fans nowadays imagine the role to be about.

Its sad how so many took Makelele so seriously and decided to crown him the embodiment of a modern day defensive midfielder.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Anchoring midfield has always been a defensive job. That is why Carrick, who is more adept with his defensive game does it for us instead of a Scholes.


That is because like so many like you simply don't understand the term.

Players who anchor midfield are defensive midfielders. So are holding players & the vast majority have never been the limited players most fans nowadays imagine the role to be about.

Its sad how so many took Makelele so seriously and decided to crown him the embodiment of a modern day defensive midfielder.
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The term has been adapted over time, and imo Makelele played a huge part in the general belief that a DM is now categorised as nothing more than a nullifier. He was hugely successful as a player, even though he embodies the most extreme limitations that can possibly be placed on a DM's role. In a media where many general opinions are interpreted by so many people in the most extreme interpretation possible, it is hardly surprising that people use stereotypical, widely acknowledged beliefs to support or dismiss a point.

People forget the likes of Matthaus, Sammer, Redondo, Hierro, Rikjaard, were all widely renowned DM's too, though today that would be contested by many people who would see them as CM's who are positionally aware, or box to box.

Fergie has done this no favours by claiming he has never used one, which i contested only the other week, and was duly treated to a number of SAF's recent quotes on the subject, as though that was definitive and decided the matter. When i persisted, i was again treated to lists of Fergie's considerable list of achievements! :D

For me your position is defined by what job you predominantly fulfill for the team, not whether you are capable of playing in other positions or able to contribute in other areas. That to me is only being a world class DM, as opposed to having to have your contribution redefined, as if DM by itself no longer good enough.
 
apotheosis said:
Fergie has done this no favours by claiming he has never used one, which i contested only the other week, and was duly treated to a number of SAF's recent quotes on the subject, as though that was definitive and decided the matter. When i persisted, i was again treated to lists of Fergie's considerable list of achievements! :D
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:lol: That is so redcafe, darling.
 
Comsmit said:
I'm not sure you really know what u think we need. So you would have Schweinsteiger, De Ross andi Alonso but not Modric?

I just don't get it sorry.
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You don't get it because you seem to believe Modric is capable of something i simply don't see. All those players mentioned could effectively screen our back 4 if Carrick was out, as well as contribute going forward and keep good possession.

But i am curious as to whether you believe modric is as good defensively as those examples, and if so could effectively cover Carrick's role in our team if he is injured?

If you don't believe that, then you now have my point.

They could play alongside Carrick in a 4-4-2- or 4-2-3-1 or they could play instead of him. That is the difference between the types of players imo. Modric may be able to contribute defensively next to Carrick, but that part of his game is nowhere near strong enough to do so effectively instead of him imo.

Which is why personally i have a preference for one similar to the others, who i see as being much more 'positionally aware'! ;)
 
apotheosis said:
The term has been adapted over time, and imo Makelele played a huge part in the general belief that a DM is now categorised as nothing more than a nullifier. He was hugely successful as a player, even though he embodies the most extreme limitations that can possibly be placed on a DM's role. In a media where many general opinions are interpreted by so many people in the most extreme interpretation possible, it is hardly surprising that people use stereotypical, widely acknowledged beliefs to support or dismiss a point.

People forget the likes of Matthaus, Sammer, Redondo, Hierro, Rikjaard, were all widely renowned DM's too, though today that would be contested by many people who would see them as CM's who are positionally aware, or box to box.

Fergie has done this no favours by claiming he has never used one, which i contested only the other week, and was duly treated to a number of SAF's recent quotes on the subject, as though that was definitive and decided the matter. When i persisted, i was again treated to lists of Fergie's considerable list of achievements! :D

For me your position is defined by what job you predominantly fulfill for the team, not whether you are capable of playing in other positions or able to contribute in other areas. That to me is only being a world class DM, as opposed to having to have your contribution redefined, as if DM by itself no longer good enough.
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What folks never seem to understand is a proper DM is supposed to be a real midfielder. As in a player capable of using the ball well an supporting their team's ventures forwards. Because they are still midfielders. The only difference is their focus is more defensive in terms of wining the ball and helping their defence.

Players like Makelele were just third center backs. Catenaccio style sweepers. Probably some of the least talented individuals ever handed the role by defensive minded coaches.

That is why I often get irritated when I hear the term box to box being talked about like its a playing position rather than an attribute a midfielder possesses, and see a player like Carrick classed as a 'central midfielder''. Because even a defensive midfielder can be a box to box merchant. Gatusso was a classic example. A player whom at his peak would get every where on the pitch to carry out his duty of wining the ball and disrupting the opposition. Whilst still having the speed and stamina to be in position to help out his defence when the ball was lost up-field.
 
i thought that someone like scholes/modric/xavi were deep lying playmakers. so is c
arrick, but hes a defensive minded deep lying playmaker. your de jong types are actual defensive midfielders. they dont really spread the ball well enough and are somewhat like CBs.
 
Vibhas said:
i thought that someone like scholes/modric/xavi were deep lying playmakers. so is c
arrick, but hes a defensive minded deep lying playmaker. your de jong types are actual defensive midfielders. they dont really spread the ball well enough and are somewhat like CBs.
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De jong is simply a 3rd center back. The type who were sweepers in the cateneccio instead of the Libero's
 
tintedsepia said:
I'm always shocked that United fans are still calling for a DM. We've never had one. Carrick is not a DM. He is actually a creative midfield player with a range of expansive first time passing - a rolls royce of a midfield player. however the job he is being asked to do is to anchor the midfield and keep it moving. That is not defensive! Even SAF has said that we don't do DMS. Why should we when we have over 65% possession in most games?

Makes me laugh when people call Javi Martinez a defensive midfield player.

Have a look at this:
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Good grief! Sign him up! :D
 
RedSky At Night said:
Away CL/Tough Prem Games:

------------------DDG------------------
---Rafa------Vidic---Evans------Evra---
------------Carrick---Modric------------
---Valencia-------Kagawa-------Nani---
----------------Rooney----------------

I'd love to see that, technical ability in that team is frightening, getting the ball off us would be pretty difficult! I doubt we'll get Modric now, but you can dream!
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DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Scholes

Nani Modric Kagawa

Rooney

...would be even better :)
 
Feed Me said:
DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Scholes

Nani Modric Kagawa

Rooney

...would be even better :)
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I like the formation, but for some games surely we need someone with more legs than Scholes next to Carrick, otherwise it is as slow a pairing as you could reasonably imagine.

DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Anderson

Nani Rooney Kagawa

Welbeck

I think this team is as good as we could currently put out (with everyone fit) in the system most suited to them imo. Ideally though i would like a Schweinsteiger/Martinez/ Sahin instead of Anderson for a more solid look in some games, that would also allow the full backs added security to get forward and offer width when the likes of Kagawa and Nani cut inside.
 
Feed Me said:
DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Scholes

Nani Modric Kagawa

Rooney

...would be even better :)
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Since we're in muppet FM mode:

DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Martinez

Nani Modric Kagawa

Rooney

or


DDG

Raf Rio Vidic Evra

Carrick Modric

Valencia Kagawa Nani

Rooney
 
apotheosis said:
You don't get it because you seem to believe Modric is capable of something i simply don't see. All those players mentioned could effectively screen our back 4 if Carrick was out, as well as contribute going forward and keep good possession.

But i am curious as to whether you believe modric is as good defensively as those examples, and if so could effectively cover Carrick's role in our team if he is injured?

If you don't believe that, then you now have my point.

They could play alongside Carrick in a 4-4-2- or 4-2-3-1 or they could play instead of him. That is the difference between the types of players imo. Modric may be able to contribute defensively next to Carrick, but that part of his game is nowhere near strong enough to do so effectively instead of him imo.

Which is why personally i have a preference for one similar to the others, who i see as being much more 'positionally aware'! ;)
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You haven't read my initial post properly have you?

I explained why I don't see the need for a "defensively minded" midfielder, it's pointless as all United midfielders are required to contribute to both attacking and defensive phases of play. If you must have my opinion then Modric is exceptional at maintaining possession of the ball and distributes it cleanly and effectively, that's how he contributes defensively. And if he had to come in for Carrick so be it, he's disciplined enough and I would argue he is actually more or equally "positionally aware than most of the players on that list.

I don't think you have really studied the players you mention. Why would Schweinsteiger be good at "screening our back four?" What a waste of his talents. Alonso, Busquets and Banega are registas, as is Modric to an extent. Khedira or perhaps De Rossi are the closest embodiement of what you describe. The rest are not defensive midfielders. You are just throwing names around cheaply rather than identifying someone you actually believe can do the job you think needs doing.
 
Comsmit said:
...
I don't think you have really studied the players you mention. Why would Schweinsteiger be good at "screening our back four?" ....
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Because that is what he does superbly for Bayern and the German national side. While still controlling all their attacking play from midfield. I wonder what makes you think a player can't screen a back 4 and be key to attack at the same time.
 
How can you think Modric could come in for Carrick? Scholes couldn't come in for Carrick, in the same way he couldn't be an alternative to Keane. Why is it that Spurs usually look to add an extra midfielder when they play tough games, or in some cases moved Modric wider where he would have to bare less of the defensive burden?

If Modric was that good defensively why are Spurs wasting there time with Parker when they could bring in another midfielder capable of adding to the attack as well?
 
Ash_G said:
How can you think Modric could come in for Carrick? Scholes couldn't come in for Carrick, in the same way he couldn't be an alternative to Keane. Why is it that Spurs usually look to add an extra midfielder when they play tough games, or in some cases moved Modric wider where he would have to bare less of the defensive burden?

If Modric was that good defensively why are Spurs wasting there time with Parker when they could bring in another midfielder capable of adding to the attack as well?
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Are you seriously asking someone to explain Harry Redknapps tactics?

You seem to be forgetting that he is a blithering idiot. He doesn't think a player is defending if he doesn't chase shadows.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Anchoring midfield has always been a defensive job. That is why Carrick, who is more adept with his defensive game does it for us instead of a Scholes.


That is because like so many like you simply don't understand the term.

Players who anchor midfield are defensive midfielders. So are holding players & the vast majority have never been the limited players most fans nowadays imagine the role to be about.

Its sad how so many took Makelele so seriously and decided to crown him the embodiment of a modern day defensive midfielder.
Click to expand...

Too right.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Because that is what he does superbly for Bayern and the German national side. While still controlling all their attacking play from midfield. I wonder what makes you think a player can't screen a back 4 and be key to attack at the same time.
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Screening the back four means the following to me. In essence its providing a disciplined presence in front of the central defenders while also covering full back and central defensive positions when vacated. This is the job of a defensive midfielder.

Schweinsteiger is if anything a regista, a deep lying playmaker. He does not operate solely in front of the back four (back to screening again). If he was a presence in United's midfield he would require a defensive midfielder to support him. At present its Khedira for the German national side and Luis Gustavo at club level.

What I am saying, and I think I'm justified, is that it would not be Schweinsteigers job to screen the back four. A regista has a general defensive responsibility, but their main requirement is to dictate tempo and be creative from withdrawn positions either in the midfield line or behind.

Is that ok for you?
 
Comsmit said:
Screening the back four means the following to me. In essence its providing a disciplined presence in front of the central defenders while also covering full back and central defensive positions when vacated. This is the job of a defensive midfielder.

Schweinsteiger is if anything a regista, a deep lying playmaker. He does not operate solely in front of the back four (back to screening again). If he was a presence in United's midfield he would require a defensive midfielder to support him. At present its Khedira for the German national side and Luis Gustavo at club level. ?
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For both Bayern and Germany he has ever played a number of games alongside a player like Kroos as his partnering holding player. Yet Kroos is literally an attacking midfielder with some defensive nous.

Even in the champions league final he played alongside Toni Kroos, taking over the role of Gustavo.

This idea that he doesn't screen the defence and would need a Carrick next to him is not true at all. Just watch a re-run of the recent champions league final.

Comsmit said:
What I am saying, and I think I'm justified, is that it would not be Schweinsteigers job to screen the back four. A regista has a general defensive responsibility, but their main requirement is to dictate tempo and be creative from withdrawn positions either in the midfield line or behind.

Is that ok for you?
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It isn't. Only because being a regista does not stop a player being a screen for a back 4. Bastian is the latest in a long line of many. From Redondo and Guardiola, down to Busquets. To Carrick himself.

I never get why folks think screening the back 4 is this unglamorous duty that no one with serious on the ball and attacking skill can be given. In fact there is nothing better than having a regista protecting your back 4.

United and Arsenal had that back in the day when Keane and Vieira were leading their respective midfield's. All play went through them. Yet they were the ones taking care of their defences with superb fashion. The added advantge Keane and Vieira also had over most regista's was incredible stamina that allowed them to be box to box dynamos.
 
Comsmit said:
Screening the back four means the following to me. In essence its providing a disciplined presence in front of the central defenders while also covering full back and central defensive positions when vacated. This is the job of a defensive midfielder.

Schweinsteiger is if anything a regista, a deep lying playmaker. He does not operate solely in front of the back four (back to screening again). If he was a presence in United's midfield he would require a defensive midfielder to support him. At present its Khedira for the German national side and Luis Gustavo at club level.

What I am saying, and I think I'm justified, is that it would not be Schweinsteigers job to screen the back four. A regista has a general defensive responsibility, but their main requirement is to dictate tempo and be creative from withdrawn positions either in the midfield line or behind.

Is that ok for you?
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You do have a point in that Schweinsteiger would be wasted in the Carrick role. But then, we sure wouldn't sign him for that role, we are fine with Carrick as it is and no way would he be a sub.

The point however is that in the absence of Carrick he could perform those duties effectively, while Modric can't.

It really is a matter of people not minding Modric but being more concerned about another flagrant need that he doesn't address. Ideally, Modric + AN Other would address it.

All that is being argued is that if only one midfielder were to be signed Modric would be insufficient while someone more complete like Schweinsteiger would be able to perform in either midfield role.

Anyway, not that we would sign him anyway but it helps illustrate the point.
 
Am I the only one who would rather see Cleverley get a first team run than spunk 30-40M on Modric?

He's rather unfairly been given the injury prone tag, when everything he suffered so far has been impact injuries. I'm excited to see how his quick short passing game links up with Kagawa. A midfield 3 of Carrick, Cleverley and Kagawa could be very exciting.
 
simonhch said:
Am I the only one who would rather see Cleverley get a first team run than spunk 30-40M on Modric?

He's rather unfairly been given the injury prone tag, when everything he suffered so far has been impact injuries. I'm excited to see how his quick short passing game links up with Kagawa. A midfield 3 of Carrick, Cleverley and Kagawa could be very exciting.
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Our midfield has been waiting for Godot for a long time now. It may be necessary to get off our arses and go out and find the f**ker.
 
simonhch said:
Am I the only one who would rather see Cleverley get a first team run than spunk 30-40M on Modric?

He's rather unfairly been given the injury prone tag, when everything he suffered so far has been impact injuries. I'm excited to see how his quick short passing game links up with Kagawa. A midfield 3 of Carrick, Cleverley and Kagawa could be very exciting.
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Kagawa will play behind the striker so in a certain way hes berba replacement (system will change). I guess you are one of the very few not to see that cm needs strenghtening
 
Maybe we need a CM so badly, that, we actually don't need a CM anymore.
 
simonhch said:
Am I the only one who would rather see Cleverley get a first team run than spunk 30-40M on Modric?

He's rather unfairly been given the injury prone tag, when everything he suffered so far has been impact injuries. I'm excited to see how his quick short passing game links up with Kagawa. A midfield 3 of Carrick, Cleverley and Kagawa could be very exciting.
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That's part of it. No Modric and there is still Cleverley, Scholes and Ando. And Giggs somewhat. Two with everything to prove and two on their last legs. Not a great scenario beyond this season by any means, but much better to the binary approach of whether we have Carrick or not meaning whether we are fecked or not.
 
I actually can't believe people are trying to use what's at the club already as a reason not to get Luca Modric if at all possible!

Jesus christ tonight he's a quality player and that can only be good right ? If he is willing to sign we should try hard to get him.

Scholes and giggs are pretty much finished after this season , the jury is out on Anderson and fletchers health is unknown.
Yeah we have clev and carrick but they are different type players plus carrick is over 30 now !

Christ on a bike if modric is available and willing to join United then we should be feckin happy!
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
For both Bayern and Germany he has ever played a number of games alongside a player like Kroos as his partnering holding player. Yet Kroos is literally an attacking midfielder with some defensive nous.

Even in the champions league final he played alongside Toni Kroos, taking over the role of Gustavo.

This idea that he doesn't screen the defence and would need a Carrick next to him is not true at all. Just watch a re-run of the recent champions league final.

It isn't. Only because being a regista does not stop a player being a screen for a back 4. Bastian is the latest in a long line of many. From Redondo and Guardiola, down to Busquets. To Carrick himself.

I never get why folks think screening the back 4 is this unglamorous duty that no one with serious on the ball and attacking skill can be given. In fact there is nothing better than having a regista protecting your back 4.

United and Arsenal had that back in the day when Keane and Vieira were leading their respective midfield's. All play went through them. Yet they were the ones taking care of their defences with superb fashion. The added advantge Keane and Vieira also had over most regista's was incredible stamina that allowed them to be box to box dynamos.
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Right...were to start.

Scweinsteiger doesn't play as a "holding" player. Busquets is actually more of a holding player than a regista. Why are you referring to the Champions League Final? Bayern had to shift players around to compensate for suspensions. If Gustavo had played he would have been the defensive midfielder, with his job being to break up play, SCREEN THE BACK FOUR!, and cover for players moving forward during an attacking phase of play.

Schweinsteiger is the deep-lying playmaker who has the creative duty, he dictates the tempo of Bayerns play, his primary task is not to protect the back four. I've already suggested he has defensive responsibilities that is obvious. To make him primarily responsible for protecting the back four takes away his ability to truly dictate a match.

As for a regista protecting your back four I'm really not sure you have thought that through. Your basically saying that having Scholes (perhaps not a traditional regista), Alonso, Schweinsteiger, Pirlo or Xavi solely protecting your back four is the best thing a team can do? I don't buy that for a second. They need hard working midfielders around them to protect them defensively.

And Keane and Vieira were not registas...not in the slightest. I think you need to re-assess your definition of this position.
 
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