Manchester Arena Bombing 22.05.17

JustAFan said:
So the police can just lock up anyone they want to claim is a danger without that person even being able to present a defense or answer the charges in anyway. Sounds a bit familiar.
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Kentonio said:
There is absolutely no grounds for imprisoning people who haven't commited a crime, absolutely none. If that day ever comes again, then we're not a democracy we're a repressive regime. Your safety isn't more important than someone elses freedom.
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moses said:
Any other day this would rightfully, be almost unchallenged. But after events like this it's amazing how many fundamentals get skewed.
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I should have been clearer.

1. I assume being a member of a terrorist organisation is a crime.
2. The intelligence services have evidence that these people are commiting a crime (ie supporting or being members of a terrorist organisation)

If the above is true then they should be taken to court and then locked up.

In most of the attacks in recent years you hear the attackers "were known to security services" and you read in the papers how security services knew they'd done this and that and had training here and there. If they know this stuff, if they can prove this stuff, then they should and in doing so they should lock these people up.
 
McLovin said:
That's outstanding. Posting it here directly.

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Yes.
 
Zlatattack said:
I should have been clearer.

1. I assume being a member of a terrorist organisation is a crime.
2. The intelligence services have evidence that these people are commiting a crime (ie supporting or being members of a terrorist organisation)

If the above is true then they should be taken to court and then locked up.

In most of the attacks in recent years you hear the attackers "were known to security services" and you read in the papers how security services knew they'd done this and that and had training here and there. If they know this stuff, if they can prove this stuff, then they should and in doing so they should lock these people up.
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Being known to security is not the same as belonging to a terrorist organization. The thing we don't know is how many of these people "known to security" end up never, ever doing anything wrong?

You would send then to jail and it would have to be for life wouldn't it?

In the US people who were once deemed a risk because of ties to the communist party had their lives ruined. No need to repeat that mistake.
 
moses said:
Anyway, I'm not in the mood for the usual redcafe CE level of adversarial chit chat.
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OK, to take one point you made above:

moses said:
They are no different to fat milk fed white Americans taking their father's gun and going mental in the mall or school. Socially disenfranchised males...Yes these guys are muslims but really I don't think if they were happy in themselves they could be convinced to blow themselves and 22 people up, regardless of theology.
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Here is Hezbollah's leader Hassan Nasrallah describing the appeal of martyrdom to Robert Fisk in the mid-90s:

(skip to 0:28):



"There are qualities which our fighters have. He who drives his truck into the enemy's military base to blow himself up and to become a martyr, he drives in with a hopeful heart, smiling and happy because he knows he is going to another place. Death according to our belief is not oblivion. It is not the end. It is the beginning of a true life. The best metaphor for a Westerner to try to understand this truth is to think of a person being in a sauna bath for a long time. He is very thirsty and tired and hot, and he is suffering from the effects of the high temperature. Then he is told that if he opens the door he can go into a quiet, comfortable room, drink a nice cocktail, and hear beautiful classical music. Then he will open the door and go through without hesitation, knowing that what he leaves behind is not a high price to pay, and what awaits him is of much greater value. I cannot think of another example to explain this idea to a Westerner."

It can reasonably be argued that Hezbollah is a Shi'i organization with no relation whatsoever to ISIS, and his views are therefore of no relevance to this discussion. But now listen to this Canadian ISIS fighter talking in Syria in 2014:

(skip to 04:30):



"You can easily earn yourself a high station with Allah for the next life by sacrificing just a small bit of this worldly life. The trade is a very good trade, you know, it's like trading something worthless for the most precious diamond..."

One is not only the leader of the most influential party in Lebanese politics, he is also a man of immense Islamic learning, a scholar in his own right, with millions of admirers across the Shi'i world today. The other is a run-of-the-mill Canadian guy who converted to Islam and ended up dying fighting for the fanatically Sunni ISIS. Yet notice how similar the idea expressed by both of them is, despite their differences. And see how consistent the appeal is across space and time, from 1990s Shi'i Lebanon to 2014 ISIS run Syria. That alone should cause you to reconsider the idea that these are all just drop-out nihilists (something the Canadian denies outright at the start of his propaganda piece, which is worth watching in full by the way) whose actions have nothing to do with religion. It should also bring home just how utterly divorced from the IRA/ETA/whatever traditional form of political terrorism you grew up knowing about, this tendency within Islamism is.
 
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Both of those quotes reveal utterly selfish motives before anything else.
 
JustAFan said:
Being known to security is not the same as belonging to a terrorist organization. The thing we don't know is how many of these people "known to security" end up never, ever doing anything wrong?

You would send then to jail and it would have to be for life wouldn't it?

In the US people who were once deemed a risk because of ties to the communist party had their lives ruined. No need to repeat that mistake.
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Not to mention the time that the US sent most of their Americans of Japanese ancestry to live in Internment camps...

People like Norman Mineta and Atsushi Wallace Tashima becoming important politicians and judges respectively
 
moses said:
Any other day this would rightfully, be almost unchallenged. But after events like this it's amazing how many fundamentals get skewed.
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This is the way human societies function. No wonder the countries that have regular doses of terrorism/violence don't have any place for liberal values.
 
SteveJ said:
Both of those quotes reveal utterly selfish motives before anything else.
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Well, yes, but to be that selfish you have to be a true believer. Which is the point.
 
Red Defence said:
I know where you're coming from with this. I know someone, nice person but empathy is not really something she ever feels. She readily admits that the only thing that ever upsets her is trouble to her immediate family or any issue (and there are many) with herself.

After she's made the standard response to this attack it will completely leave her head and she will give it no further thought. Her concern will be superficial and incredibly brief.

There are more people like this than we realise...by that I mean people who just find empathy quite confusing.
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I shouldn't have called her stupid, it's just people should show at least some sympathy. On the other hand that's how they function and we can't judge that but we can have an opinion about it.
 
God this is all so depressing, and not a solution in sight. We just sit and wait for the next attack to hit more innocent people/children, then we'll all pretend we are surprised again, bury our dead and then wait for the next one. That's the most depressing thing of all, there is no end to this.
 
Fundamentally ALL Muslims believe that if you are martyred you will attain paradise. The question we need answering is; what makes someone think killing children at a concert, or at school, or people in a mosque or at a market, will make you a martyr?

The answer to this is very complex, it varies from person to person.

Things to consider;
Mental health, sense of self worth, economic background, emotional stability, level of education, Islamic knowledge, political opinions.

This is as much a social challenge of our times as inequality is, or attitudes towards contraceptives, the environment and the need for renewable energy etc. It will leave a mark on our history.
 
2cents said:
Well, yes, but to be that selfish you have to be a true believer. Which is the point.
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That's entirely self-defeating logic, and undermines the idea that others should follow suit in beliefs & actions; it smacks of politics rather than anything 'higher'.
 
Zlatattack said:
I should have been clearer.

1. I assume being a member of a terrorist organisation is a crime.
2. The intelligence services have evidence that these people are commiting a crime (ie supporting or being members of a terrorist organisation)

If the above is true then they should be taken to court and then locked up.

In most of the attacks in recent years you hear the attackers "were known to security services" and you read in the papers how security services knew they'd done this and that and had training here and there. If they know this stuff, if they can prove this stuff, then they should and in doing so they should lock these people up.
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I agree, but it's a very delicate situation and how it is policed is very important.

You are right in that it's extremely frustrating that often these prople are known to the authorities.

I've read that about 60 mosques are known to have some connection to terror and why these places are not more heavily monitored is disheartening. Butveven within these mosques it's probably not overt and a tiny minority so again how it's handled is tricky.

The fallout from heavy handed or insensitive policing might have a huge and damaging fallout.
 
SteveJ said:
That's entirely self-defeating logic, and undermines the idea that others should follow suit in beliefs & actions; it smacks of politics rather than anything 'higher'.
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Can you expand on this a bit more?
 
Zlatattack said:
Fundamentally ALL Muslims believe that if you are martyred you will attain paradise. The question we need answering is; what makes someone think killing children at a concert, or at school, or people in a mosque or at a market, will make you a martyr?

The answer to this is very complex, it varies from person to person.

Things to consider;
Mental health, sense of self worth, economic background, emotional stability, level of education, Islamic knowledge, political opinions.

This is as much a social challenge of our times as inequality is, or attitudes towards contraceptives, the environment and the need for renewable energy etc. It will leave a mark on our history.
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Suicide bombing has changed a lot over the last 4 decades, at one point it was tolerated only if used against military targets, like in the Lebanon in the 80s. Then in Palestine the logic was that even Israeli citizens were legitimately killed as they were occupiers. How we got here to the murder of children is beyond logic.

It fits no theological or tactical gain from what I can see. Which is what makes it so hard to understand and combat.
 
SteveJ said:
That's entirely self-defeating logic, and undermines the idea that others should follow suit in beliefs & actions; it smacks of politics rather than anything 'higher'.
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You just said their motivation was "entirely selfish" now you're saying it "smacks of politics" That logic really is self-defeating!
 
moses said:
I agree, but it's a very delicate situation and how it is policed is very important.

You are right in that it's extremely frustrating that often these prople are known to the authorities.

I've read that about 60 mosques are known to have some connection to terror and why these places are not more heavily monitored is disheartening. Butveven within these mosques it's probably not overt and a tiny minority so again how it's handled is tricky.

The fallout from heavy handed or insensitive policing might have a huge and damaging fallout.
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If thats true and can be proven, the leaders should be locked up for good.
 
2cents said:
Can you expand on this a bit more?
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Tbh, the scholar's words read like a salesman's patter and the Canadian's read like the hopes of someone seduced by that spiel. Typically, the former seems like the spokesman of vested interests rather than one moved by faith; the latter, a naive foot soldier of something corporate instead of spiritual. None of this is exclusive to Islam, as Western history has shown, but it's shabby nonetheless.
 
Zlatattack said:
Fundamentally ALL Muslims believe that if you are martyred you will attain paradise. The question we need answering is; what makes someone think killing children at a concert, or at school, or people in a mosque or at a market, will make you a martyr?

The answer to this is very complex, it varies from person to person.

Things to consider;
Mental health, sense of self worth, economic background, emotional stability, level of education, Islamic knowledge, political opinions.

This is as much a social challenge of our times as inequality is, or attitudes towards contraceptives, the environment and the need for renewable energy etc. It will leave a mark on our history.
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Suicide in any form is not islamic, even at times of war it was instructed not to hurt women, children, elderly, and even trees, those guys are no martyrs in any way, disgusting is what they are.
 
It's extremely sad that after a tragedy like this, one side starts to blame the other. All sides need to work together, to defend liberalism and liberal freedoms.
 
moses said:
I agree, but it's a very delicate situation and how it is policed is very important.

You are right in that it's extremely frustrating that often these prople are known to the authorities.

I've read that about 60 mosques are known to have some connection to terror and why these places are not more heavily monitored is disheartening. Butveven within these mosques it's probably not overt and a tiny minority so again how it's handled is tricky.

The fallout from heavy handed or insensitive policing might have a huge and damaging fallout.
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It is very tricky because if they take the leader to prison ie he'd be looked at by his pupils as a hero of sorts being taken to prison for the larger cause he bra brainwashed them and taught them to believe in.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You just said their motivation was "entirely selfish" now you're saying it "smacks of politics" That logic really is self-defeating!
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By which I meant that, like politicians, leaders of organised religions lie; on occasion, they tell us underlings what we want to hear (as the Hezbollah leader is doing, IMO).
 
SteveJ said:
By which I meant that, like politicians, leaders of organised religions, lie; on occasion, they tell us underlings what we want to hear (as the Hezbollah leader is doing, IMO).
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I dunno. I think it's reasonable to assume they both believe what they say. It's not as though we're short of examples of people making the ultimate sacrifice as testament to the power of these beliefs.
 
SteveJ said:
Tbh, the scholar's words read like a salesman's patter and the Canadian's read like the hopes of someone seduced by that spiel. Typically, the former seems like the spokesman of vested interests rather than one moved by faith; the latter, a naive foot soldier of something corporate instead of spiritual. None of this is exclusive to Islam, as Western history has shown, but it's shabby nonetheless.
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I'm not sure why you're doubting Nasrallah's sincerity on this matter, he's clearly speaking about something he not only believes in deeply, but something that delights him to discuss.

I think your mistake is to assume that 'religion', 'politics', 'personal motives', etc. are all exclusive categories which can be considered in isolation from each other, when in fact that is a particularly modern, Western idea with little applicability in these cases. For these people there is nothing inherently hypocritical or insincere about, say, profiting personally from what you believe God's will to be. In fact as true believers that is their reward.

Zlatattack said:
Fundamentally ALL Muslims believe that if you are martyred you will attain paradise. The question we need answering is; what makes someone think killing children at a concert, or at school, or people in a mosque or at a market, will make you a martyr?

The answer to this is very complex, it varies from person to person.

Things to consider;
Mental health, sense of self worth, economic background, emotional stability, level of education, Islamic knowledge, political opinions.

This is as much a social challenge of our times as inequality is, or attitudes towards contraceptives, the environment and the need for renewable energy etc. It will leave a mark on our history.
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These are certainly the things we need to know about to understand the factors that drive particular individuals to do what they do. But the range of factors is so broad that it is a real struggle to build any kind of reliable profile. ISIS has attracted drop-out petty criminals, young professionals, middle-aged family men, teenage girls, Bangladeshi grandparents, Western converts, etc. The diversity is so deep that it all becomes a bit meaningless. Which is why I prefer to look at the factors sustaining the movement as a whole, those things that give it its global appeal, e.g. the political, economic, and cultural subjugation of the Islamic world at the hands of the West, the shitty state of governance across the Islamic world, the so-called 'youth bulge', etc. And yes, certain traditions within Islam which have come to the fore in the last couple of hundred years or so as they have encountered these realities of the modern world.
 
'Known to authorities' seems to be used routinely as a way to bash the security services but the amount of people that will have data on them in some form will be ridiculous.

Even with a substantial loss of freedom you aren't going to prevent all attacks. Even countries with the tightest countrols suffer incidents.
 
Blackwidow said:
I was growing up during the Cold War in Germany born 1969. With the Nazi past still being something talked about a lot. With American soldiers stationed nearby, with the reality of the two German countries - with relatives on the other side of that border. There was the Munich massacre in the 70s - then the RAF and their terrorist attacks and kidnappings in Germany. The kidnapping of the Landshut. Tchernobyl in the 80s and all the demonstrations for peace, against the stationing of Pershing bombs in Germany and Anti-Power-Plants. The 90s had the wars in old Yugoslavia - we had a lot refugees from there. There was Mölln and Solingen when Nazis were burning down houses of turkish migrants - and they did not care of the kids either. The 2000s had the World-Trade-Center...

Just to talk about the world view I got as a kid (or later)... (it for sure was not better in other times)
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The world has always been at war(s), and as I understand where the poster is coming from with tis concern with kids growing to this images, it's not like every other generation was innocent. We grew up with big conflicts going all around.
 
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