Manchester City 17/18 discussion | "If you're here for the Champions clap your hands" (#6505)

Not so sure about that, reckon 15-20% will still come from the middle east sponsors for the next few years but everything is definitely now in place that we're not so reliant on them in the long run
If you took 15% of our revenue away, which in itself is pretty ridiculous since we'd anyway replace those sponsors with other ones, but even so, we'd still be one of the world's wealthiest clubs.

We'd have to trim our wage bill a bit, but the idea we'd suddenly be Leeds is pure fantasy.
 
If you took 15% of our revenue away, which in itself is pretty ridiculous since we'd anyway replace those sponsors with other ones, but even so, we'd still be one of the world's wealthiest clubs.

We'd have to trim our wage bill a bit, but the idea we'd suddenly be Leeds is pure fantasy.

Totally agree, and just like with Roman at Chelsea, Mansour isn't going anywhere any time soon
 
If you took 15% of our revenue away, which in itself is pretty ridiculous since we'd anyway replace those sponsors with other ones, but even so, we'd still be one of the world's wealthiest clubs.

We'd have to trim our wage bill a bit, but the idea we'd suddenly be Leeds is pure fantasy.

But what if he sold the club to Peter Ridsdale? Or worse still, the Oyston family? We really would be fooked then:lol:
 
City are everything that is wrong with modern football. Shame really.
Shame for you perhaps? I think what you actually mean is City are everything wrong with United not being able to dominate the league any more.

Not many neutrals would rather have owners who saddle the club with debt, take fans' money, don't spend it on the club and players and then pocket the rest for themselves.

Seems to me that pumping a billion quid into the Premier League by building a fabulous academy, buying top players (and thereby giving other clubs loads of money) is actually a good thing and certainly infinitely preferable to the model above.

Our cheapest season tickets are £299 but yours are something like £550 I think? And have you considered how much money Arsenal have received from Manchester City since Sheikh Mansour took over? And how much from Southampton have got from Arsenal?

Roman Abramovic and Sheikh Mansour have contributed to making the Premier League the most successful league in the world, from which even United - well, the Glazers - have benefited. Without investors like them, the league would not have the best players nor the worldwide audiences that make it the richest league in the world.
 
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I find this argument so tedious. Can we really blame or look down on other clubs for trying to reach the status of an elite club? That's like saying: you're poor, you don't belong among our group of elite clubs and you will never belong, you'll just have to accept it. Or give them the impossible task of trying to get into that elite group without access to the ridiculous funds said clubs have because of their history. That's just silly. As if it's all been an easy ride for City. It used to be a titanic struggle for them just to maintain the status of being a Premier League club. I can't find it in me to blame them for how they reached their current level. They're here now and they've turned into a well run football club. We shouldn't be dismissing them, we should strive to become better than them.
Great post. I honestly find it boring that fans are still whingeing and moaning about other clubs finances, shirt sales, empty seats, sponsers, etc. Is that all people can throw about as insults. I mean who cares.
 
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Gibson was the second of the two - he came along in 1931 when United were struggling near the foot of the second division and were pretty much bankrupt. The 2 situations might not be comparable on the face of it, but we’re talking 2 totally different eras. Either way, United were given a much needed financial boost. Immediately prior to that, a third Manchester club - Manchester Central - had recently been founded and had just been admitted to the football league. United were struggling far more than City at the time and saw Central as a real threat. As City and United enjoyed a good relationship, they joined forces in lobbying the Football League against Central’s admission and were successful in getting them expelled from the league. Pretty shameful from both clubs really.

The other guy was John Henry Davies in 1902. Again, United (or rather Newton Heath) were on the verge of bankruptcy, and had never to my knowledge finished higher than bottom of the top flight. Thanks to Aston Villa grassing City up for allegedly offering a backhander to throw a match in 1904, City were punished so severely that we almost went out of business when 17 of our players (and our manager) were banned for life from playing for the club. United signed some of them - including the great Billy Meredith (who would return to City many years later after his ban was lifted) - and they formed the backbone of your first trophy winning side. Interestingly, just before Davies got imvolved in United the club held a bazaar to raise much needed funds and a certain other Manchester club made a donation ;)

Back to Gibson - for years there’s been a small plaque on that bridge outside Old Trafford in recognition of him. Has it been upgraded?

Makes for good reading that.

I do recall the name now you mention it and of course the story behind it. My grandad would speak at length on the subject, as he would of anything regarding the clubs history. The majority of my United education is owing to his endless monologues, not to mention the countless VHS tapes (he knew know better, bless him) he'd buy me for special occasions.

I meant the memorial that was erected in Hale Barns park a couple of years back by MUST. Apologies for the confusion.
 
It's mid-December and City have dropped 2 pts. That's mind-boggling.

They are better than last season in almost everything. BUT more lucky as well. Last season they were very unlucky (and United in most home games too). However, most pundits and fans decided that they failed because of Guardiola's tactics not working in England. And that was a wrong take on what was happenning. They outplayed Chelsea in both games and lost both games. They conceded 4 shots on target vs Everton away and lost 4:0 while having themselves more shots, much more possession, etc.

This season they have been more lucky though. The gods of football have been blue for the past 3 months and decided to compensate them for last season. The new signings, especially Ederson, helped big time too. Still, they have won nothing yet.
 
Trivially simple.

City have no debts and hardly any of our revenue comes from the Middle East. We'd be one of the world's richest clubs now whether Sheikh Mansour is on the scene or not.

We'd might take a small financial hit but it would depend who bought us. Just like if the Glazers sold you lot.

Disappointing for you i know.

That City would become a football club run entirely on self sufficient means would not disappoint. Quite the opposite in fact, I would be content in the knowledge that City have ceased to be that of a billionaires playtoy, no long to be funded by highly suspect sponsorship deals such as the Etihad one (we all know the truth regardless of Fifa's inability to discover any wrong doing).
 
It's mid-December and City have dropped 2 pts. That's mind-boggling.

They are better than last season in almost everything. BUT more lucky as well. Last season they were very unlucky (and United in most home games too). However, most pundits and fans decided that they failed because of Guardiola's tactics not working in England. And that was a wrong take on what was happenning. They outplayed Chelsea in both games and lost both games. They conceded 4 shots on target vs Everton away and lost 4:0 while having themselves more shots, much more possession, etc.

This season they have been more lucky though. The gods of football have been blue for the past 3 months and decided to compensate them for last season. The new signings, especially Ederson, helped big time too. Still, they have won nothing yet.
I keep reading we are the luckiest team about. Can you elaborate on all these lucky things that have gone our way.
 
That City would become a football club run entirely on self sufficient means would not disappoint. Quite the opposite in fact, I would be content in the knowledge that City have ceased to be that of a billionaires playtoy, no long to be funded by highly suspect sponsorship deals such as the Etihad one (we all know the truth regardless of Fifa's inability to discover any wrong doing).

Clearly you don't know much about how accounts are drawn up or audited or who audits them.

It's not FIFA, by the way.

Who is / is not a related party is defined under international accounting standards and Etihad are absolutely not a related party. BDO LLP sign off our accounts and Deloittes (if I remember correctly) audit them for FFP purposes. Is it so unbelievable that a successful Abu Dhabi company should want to be associated with another successful Abu Dhabi company (i.e. us) and through us, to gain world-wide marketing opportunity?

It's no more surprising than HSBC choosing to sponsor British Cycling.
 
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I keep reading we are the luckiest team about. Can you elaborate on all these lucky things that have gone our way.

He has a point. We've rescued 3 points on a number of occasions in games where ok the points were deserved but still we won't get the last minute goal.every time. And Pogba being out, helped us as did Mane getting sent off.

United playing Spurs without HK was not exactly unlucky however.
 
Clearly you don't know much about how accounts are drawn up or audited or who audits them.

It's not FIFA, by the way.

UEFA then, it matters not one way or the other. You knew precisely as to what I was referring and rather than address the issue you choose to evade it entirely. Your means of evasion were rather poor I might add.

Are one of the deluded ones who believe that due to lack of any incriminating evidence, the deal was perfectly legitimate?
 
He has a point. We've rescued 3 points on a number of occasions in games where ok the points were deserved but still we won't get the last minute goal.every time. And Pogba being out, helped us as did Mane getting sent off.

United playing Spurs without HK was not exactly unlucky however.

And cease the passive aggressive shite, if you have something significant to add proceedings why not just out and say it?
 
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He has a point. We've rescued 3 points on a number of occasions in games where ok the points were deserved but still we won't get the last minute goal.every time. And Pogba being out, helped us as did Mane getting sent off.

United playing Spurs without HK was not exactly unlucky however.
Its not lucky still playing our possession style football right up to the whistle and scoring late on. We were winning v the dippers when Mane went off. We were also missing Stones and Mendy agaisnt Utd.

Its like saying Utd were lucky winning the leagues with all their last minutes goals. No, They were a fantastic team who never wavered and battled right to the end.
 
I keep reading we are the luckiest team about. Can you elaborate on all these lucky things that have gone our way.

Even Barcelona and Bayern did not win 15 of the first 16 games in any season under Guardiola. Unless you think that this City team is better than them, you must admit that some luck played a role too. City have been the best team this season and seem on course to great things. But you have had some luck too. Last season you failed partly because you didn't have luck and not because you weren't good enough to win at least the FA cup.
 
Clearly you don't know much about how accounts are drawn up or audited or who audits them.

It's not FIFA, by the way.

Who is / is not a related party is defined under international accounting standards and Etihad are absolutely not a related party. BDO LLP sign off our accounts and Deloittes (if I remember correctly) audit them for FFP purposes. Is it so unbelievable that a successful Abu Dhabi company should want to be associated with another successful Abu Dhabi company (i.e. us) and through us, to gain world-wide marketing opportunity?

It's no more surprising than HSBC choosing to sponsor British Cycling.
So city should just change their name to Abu Dhabi FC and be done with it!
 
Makes for good reading that.

I do recall the name now you mention it and of course the story behind it. My grandad would speak at length on the subject, as he would of anything regarding the clubs history. The majority of my United education is owing to his endless monologues, not to mention the countless VHS tapes (he knew know better, bless him) he'd buy me for special occasions.

I meant the memorial that was erected in Hale Barns park a couple of years back by MUST. Apologies for the confusion.

I do think Gibson deserves a more prominent memorial from the club. Fair play to MUST. They get a fair bit of stick on here which is unwarranted and out of order IMO but Duncan and the others are decent guys who put a lot of time and effort into looking out for the fans
 
Its like saying Utd were lucky winning the leagues with all their last minutes goals. No, They were a fantastic team who never wavered and battled right to the end.

That's exactly what most fans did day about United, either that, or we were cheating and buying off refs, etc..
 
It's mid-December and City have dropped 2 pts. That's mind-boggling.

They are better than last season in almost everything. BUT more lucky as well. Last season they were very unlucky (and United in most home games too). However, most pundits and fans decided that they failed because of Guardiola's tactics not working in England. And that was a wrong take on what was happenning. They outplayed Chelsea in both games and lost both games. They conceded 4 shots on target vs Everton away and lost 4:0 while having themselves more shots, much more possession, etc.

This season they have been more lucky though. The gods of football have been blue for the past 3 months and decided to compensate them for last season. The new signings, especially Ederson, helped big time too. Still, they have won nothing yet.

I don't think City were unlucky last year, their defense was seriously lacking. If they conceeded 4 very good chances and all of them were taken it isn't anymore unlucky than you scoring from the few chances you had against us (Arsenal) the other week. They were great chances and goals. This year they've tightened up as a defensive unit while some players have improved (Sterling/Jesus), while improving their fullbacks.

There was a big theory on the CAF about United being unlucky last year but you didn't commit that many players forward and most of your chances were easy to defend against.
 
Its not lucky still playing our possession style football right up to the whistle and scoring late on. We were winning v the dippers when Mane went off. We were also missing Stones and Mendy agaisnt Utd.

Its like saying Utd were lucky winning the leagues with all their last minutes goals. No, They were a fantastic team who never wavered and battled right to the end.

It's a sure sign that City have the upper hand when blues are admitting that we were previously pretty good and not just multiple champions due to outrageous luck and corruption. :D

As for the money thing well we have plenty of our own and the club just needs to sort it's shit out starting with making sure we have the right manager and the right quality of players in - Aguero and KdB could've been wearing red shirts for example. Imagine the difference.
 
Is it so unbelievable that a successful Abu Dhabi company should want to be associated with another successful Abu Dhabi company (i.e. us) and through us, to gain world-wide marketing opportunity?

Yes, yes it is.
 
Clearly you don't know much about how accounts are drawn up or audited or who audits them.

It's not FIFA, by the way.

Who is / is not a related party is defined under international accounting standards and Etihad are absolutely not a related party. BDO LLP sign off our accounts and Deloittes (if I remember correctly) audit them for FFP purposes. Is it so unbelievable that a successful Abu Dhabi company should want to be associated with another successful Abu Dhabi company (i.e. us) and through us, to gain world-wide marketing opportunity?

It's no more surprising than HSBC choosing to sponsor British Cycling.

I never knew HSBC was owned by the same family who owns British Cycling! Because once you get far enough up the chain one family owns both City and Etihad.

It's fairly easy to build in enough layers to circumvent FFP and any accounting rules you see fit. Multiple corporate scandals attest to that.
 
It's a sure sign that City have the upper hand when blues are admitting that we were previously pretty good and not just multiple champions due to outrageous luck and corruption. :D

Now now - throughout those 2 decades or so that United dominated English football, I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I never once complained that you were lucky or had the refs in your pocket....
Ok, maybe I did sometimes!

Tell you something though - all those late goals you scored down the years used to be like a dagger through the heart and the old adage that "it's the hope that kills you" couldn't be more apt. It was bad enough when you did it to other teams but to do it 3 times to us in one season (2009-10) and actually witness each and every one of them took the agony to a whole new level:lol:
 
They are better than last season in almost everything. BUT more lucky as well. Last season they were very unlucky (and United in most home games too). However, most pundits and fans decided that they failed because of Guardiola's tactics not working in England. And that was a wrong take on what was happenning. They outplayed Chelsea in both games and lost both games. They conceded 4 shots on target vs Everton away and lost 4:0 while having themselves more shots, much more possession, etc.
I think their luck has been the same this season, they just decided to minimise risk (i.e. reduce the role of luck). They were counter-attacked last season in the games against Chelsea and Everton. Pep decided to have more possession and so reduce the risk of a counter-attack. Last season their possession was on average 64 per cent, this season it's up to 71 or 72. They were actually attacking last season and that was the problem. This season they've been more defensive (i.e. kept the ball more) and so luck hasn't come into play.
 
I don't think City were unlucky last year, their defense was seriously lacking. If they conceeded 4 very good chances and all of them were taken it isn't anymore unlucky than you scoring from the few chances you had against us (Arsenal) the other week. They were great chances and goals. This year they've tightened up as a defensive unit while some players have improved (Sterling/Jesus), while improving their fullbacks.

There was a big theory on the CAF about United being unlucky last year but you didn't commit that many players forward and most of your chances were easy to defend against.

I'm not saying we were unlucky last season but there was a spell where every shot on target was going in - I think it was 7 shots on target and 7 goals encompassing the 4-0 defeat at Everton, the 2-2 draw at home to Spurs, and another which escapes me.

It didn't help that Bravo didn't seem to want to make an attempt to save some of those shots and coupled with our ageing full-backs, defence was certainly a big problem but it wasn't the only problem. We weren't taking enough of our chances at the other end either. Treble mentions the Chelsea games - I'll ignore the away match as we were out of the title race by then but in the home game last December we were 1-0 up and totally bossing the early stages of the second half. With Chelsea on the ropes, De Bruyne smashed a sitter against the bar which even I could've scored and if that goes in then it's a long way back for them at 2-0 down. If City go on to win, that's a 6 point swing right there. There were other games too, particularly at home, where we were creating loads of chances but going in at half-time either level (Everton), behind (Saints), or just 1-0 up ('Boro), and we drew all 3 of them. Those 3 were consecutive home league games IIRC so that was 6 points dropped in home games in a short space of time, with the Chelsea defeat on top of that a few weeks later. I didn't see enough of United's games last season but the stats would suggest that they had exactly the same issue in several home games of not taking enough of the many chances created.
 
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Already speculated but based on Pep's pressy yesterday, seems clear City will, at a minimum, seek a reinforcement in defense in the winter window
 
Why are people saying they are unlucky? They haven't been outplayed in a single match this season, and have had more chances than basically every team they've played, where is the luck?
 
I think we should accept that Manchester City are way ahead on the football field now. This is a challenge for us to overcome. The only luck I can think of is the Kompany red card, some penalty decisions and their drawing of Basel. Even with those decisions I still think they would have won.

The Sheikh bought City not as a play toy but as a PR exercise. Now when people think Abu Dhabi they think of the state that owns Manchester City and is home to affluent people. No one mentions their human right abuses, their mistreatment of immigrants, and torture of adversaries any more. Why would the Sheikh leave City when this PR exercise has been so successful. Journalists are writing articles thanking the Sheikh for all he has done. In fact I bet Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and other Dictators/Monarchs buy clubs to improve their image as well. So the Sheikh leaving City is a fantasy now.
 
If a team wins 14 league matches in a row, that is not down to luck. Rather that they are very good forcing mistakes out of the opponents.
 
Herrera has done it numerous times for us. And it's something Mourinho has been known for in the past.

Also, tactical fouls are committed usually when your team is being counter-attacked. City are a little more vulnerable to this because they play high up the pitch so I think it's a little bit unfair to criticise them if they tactical foul more than most, which I doubt they do. Mourinho probably pointed this out being he wanted to counter-attack them and was trying to make sure they'd be punished if they did commit tactical fouls.

Yeah, I'm aware it's not a unique tactic. Also, my point beeing they have 7-8 player on at all times who are like Herrera in this respect. It was more to underline the added frustration this brought me when we ourselves couldn't string two passes together, than to criticise the approach.

A mix of excellent technical ability, possession based tacticts, and players who are willing to commit professional fouls as soon as they're dispossesed to give their opponents even less time on the ball is a scary obstacle.
 
Shame for you perhaps? I think what you actually mean is City are everything wrong with United not being able to dominate the league any more.

Not many neutrals would rather have owners who saddle the club with debt, take fans' money, don't spend it on the club and players and then pocket the rest for themselves.

Seems to me that pumping a billion quid into the Premier League by building a fabulous academy, buying top players (and thereby giving other clubs loads of money) is actually a good thing and certainly infinitely preferable to the model above.

Our cheapest season tickets are £299 but yours are something like £550 I think? And have you considered how much money Arsenal have received from Manchester City since Sheikh Mansour took over? And how much from Southampton have got from Arsenal?

Roman Abramovic and Sheikh Mansour have contributed to making the Premier League the most successful league in the world, from which even United - well, the Glazers - have benefited. Without investors like them, the league would not have the best players nor the worldwide audiences that make it the richest league in the world.


To be fair I don't think many neutrals outside of united really care or think that city are ruining football. Due to the other clubs not really having any longstanding rivalry with them its kind of just brushed off, plus you've always played nice football which helps appease the neutrals.

Its mainly united fans that will have the problem with it as any other team that is affecting there chances of actually winning something big again.
 
To all those who in the last page or two are suggesting that if you go far enough up the chain, the owners of Etihad & City are the same, it's absolutely irrelevant. Not because it doesn't come under international accounting definitions of a related party (which it doesn't) but because even if they were considered related, the amount paid is appropriate.

In fact, the amount paid by Etihad is currently less than fair market value. As it happens, a few years ago, when it was looked at for FFP purposes, despite not being a related party, we were told that the Etihad deal would only be considered acceptable revenue for FFP if it didn't increase in quantum until the end of the contracted period, when it would be looked at again. So all this repeated nonsense about whether or not Etihad is connected is just that - nonsense

Secondly, whilst I understand why it was not believed by all at the time, everyone can now see that with hindsight, the investment into the club by the owners has been just that - investment. The club is now financially stable, with income from non related parties and a market value there or thereabouts at the level of the cost of buying us in the first place together with the subsequent investment. So to keep calling us a rich man's plaything no longer works and just smacks of desperation. The purchase can now be seen, with the benefit of hindsight, as a well thought out investment decision

Finally, given how often United have historically smashed transfer records and blown all the opposition out of the market with their financial clout, regardless of how they had that financial clout, to then have a go at others for doing the same is hypocrisy personified. Such people should be more concerned how a massive increase in investment in the squad, since the purse strings were loosened, including spending on Pogba, Di Maria, Lukaku, etc (the three biggest fees ever paid by an English club if I recall correctly) has not resulted in performances on the pitch to reflect such investment. Obviously not helped by a lack of managerial stability and a complete change of styles from one manager to the next. United aren't behind city because they don't have the money. They are behind city because they haven't spent the money as wisely and don't have a well thought out long term plan, instead adopting a scattergun approach to player & managerial signings
 
To all those who in the last page or two are suggesting that if you go far enough up the chain, the owners of Etihad & City are the same, it's absolutely irrelevant. Not because it doesn't come under international accounting definitions of a related party (which it doesn't) but because even if they were considered related, the amount paid is appropriate.

In fact, the amount paid by Etihad is currently less than fair market value. As it happens, a few years ago, when it was looked at for FFP purposes, despite not being a related party, we were told that the Etihad deal would only be considered acceptable revenue for FFP if it didn't increase in quantum until the end of the contracted period, when it would be looked at again. So all this repeated nonsense about whether or not Etihad is connected is just that - nonsense

Secondly, whilst I understand why it was not believed by all at the time, everyone can now see that with hindsight, the investment into the club by the owners has been just that - investment. The club is now financially stable, with income from non related parties and a market value there or thereabouts at the level of the cost of buying us in the first place together with the subsequent investment. So to keep calling us a rich man's plaything no longer works and just smacks of desperation. The purchase can now be seen, with the benefit of hindsight, as a well thought out investment decision

Finally, given how often United have historically smashed transfer records and blown all the opposition out of the market with their financial clout, regardless of how they had that financial clout, to then have a go at others for doing the same is hypocrisy personified. Such people should be more concerned how a massive increase in investment in the squad, since the purse strings were loosened, including spending on Pogba, Di Maria, Lukaku, etc (the three biggest fees ever paid by an English club if I recall correctly) has not resulted in performances on the pitch to reflect such investment. Obviously not helped by a lack of managerial stability and a complete change of styles from one manager to the next. United aren't behind city because they don't have the money. They are behind city because they haven't spent the money as wisely and don't have a well thought out long term plan, instead adopting a scattergun approach to player & managerial signings

Why should that be disregarded? Out of interest.

Secondly, as a city fan,it's probably not best to discuss scattergun signings since the cash cow came. They have hardly been a model of shrewd investment

Will revisit the long term plan when pep is having a sabbatical in two years and Patrick Vieira is scratching his head on the sideline
 
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I don't think City were unlucky last year, their defense was seriously lacking. If they conceeded 4 very good chances and all of them were taken it isn't anymore unlucky than you scoring from the few chances you had against us (Arsenal) the other week. They were great chances and goals. This year they've tightened up as a defensive unit while some players have improved (Sterling/Jesus), while improving their fullbacks.

There was a big theory on the CAF about United being unlucky last year but you didn't commit that many players forward and most of your chances were easy to defend against.

I think their luck has been the same this season, they just decided to minimise risk (i.e. reduce the role of luck). They were counter-attacked last season in the games against Chelsea and Everton. Pep decided to have more possession and so reduce the risk of a counter-attack. Last season their possession was on average 64 per cent, this season it's up to 71 or 72. They were actually attacking last season and that was the problem. This season they've been more defensive (i.e. kept the ball more) and so luck hasn't come into play.

According to statisitcal analyses, City should have scored more and conceded less goals last season. Alone on the statistical evidence from last season, they predicted that they will be favourites for the title this season.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...does-show-man-city-should-win-premier-league/
 
That's exactly what most fans did day about United, either that, or we were cheating and buying off refs, etc..

No no, city fans have always been fine upstanding fans that just want to appreciate the best team even if it's the opposition