Manchester City facing Financial Fair Play sanctions

Well I understand your point for Rangers but the fine for City makes sense. Clearly the money is not an issue but it will be an additional expense. E.g. in their quest to break-even (Or at least to lose only £37m) this will be another cost they have to juggle. So indirectly it puts more stringent controls on their spending for the next financial year.

At least so long as the fine counts and isn't excluded from total expenditure,.

You're missing the point.

Teams like City or PSG don't care about the fines and don't care if that fine leads to another fine as long as they can continue to spend hundreds of millions and buy the best players.

So they might get a £5m fine this year and it might lead to a £10m fine next year but they continue exactly as they are and UEFA get their slice of the pie and everyone but their competition is happy.
 
Only just read that but have to agree. Perfect post that sums the situation up perfectly.

If Mansour, Abramovich, the Qatari owner at PSG, had taken over the clubs and ran them into the ground and made them collapse as clubs like Portsmouth did would UEFA have done anything whatsoever? Not a chance, doesn't concern them. It's only because they are proving successful and threatening the elite teams that FFP has been brought in. It's absolutely laughable listening to interviews with Platini where he cites Rangers and Portsmouth as examples for bringing FFP in.

I actually don't necessarily disagree with the basic point, (as made in Arruda's big post above) but you haven't even understood the argument behind the bankruptcy side of things.

No-one's worried that the sugar-daddy owners are going to run their own clubs into the ground, which is what you're suggesting. The concern is that the skyrocketing transfer fees and, more importantly, wages which players are demanding as a result of this effectively random injection of huge sums of money into the sport, is forcing smaller clubs to push themselves far beyond the boundaries of fiscal responsibility in order to compete. That is exactly what happened to Portsmouth - they tried to win a trophy, but were only able to do so through expenditure horribly beyond their means which ultimately brought about the financial collapse of the club.

The commercial giants - Bayern, Madrid, United - have just about been able to keep up thanks to booming incomes. But what the unregulated system does is create an ever-bigger divide between the top group, comprising those aforementioned commercially massive sides and the sugar-daddy clubs, and everyone else. Yes, it means that clubs can now jump the gap if they win the lottery by attracting a super-rich owner. But it means that without such an owner, there is even less chance of making the step up than there was before.

People often attack FFP by claiming that the traditional big clubs are themselves regularly spending £30m or more and paying wages of £150k a week to their mid-level players - the same sort of behaviour criticised from the super-rich owners. Smaller clubs cannot compete with this, they say, so all FFP is doing is blocking the one avenue currently open for an attempt to compete with those teams - super-rich owners willing to throw their money at the problem.

But this is obviously a fallacy. The inflated transfer fees and wages that the traditional giants are paying are a direct result of the inflation brought about by super-rich owners like Mansour and the Qatar group. If they had never been allowed, then the traditional giants would be paying £80k a week to their mid-level players and regularly spending £20m. There would be a gap between them and the rest, and trying to leap it would be very difficult, but it would be within the realms of possibility, even without a super-rich owner.

Part of the problem is that since the emergence of City, PSG etc, people have forgotten that this sort of step up to the top level used to take five years of concerted effort and small steps forward. A decade even. That's how it ought to be - a slow but perfectly viable climb up the ladder. People say 'a super-rich owner is the only way to compete with the big boys', but what they mean is that it's the only way to make the step up in three years or less. Clubs used to improve or decline slowly, through good or bad leadership, through years and years of hard work, through long-term strategy and vision. The system was stable. That stability meant mobility within that system was challenging and slow. But the way to improve mobility within a stable system is not to introduce mass instability. You have to improve the system, not abandon it.

For me, those who think sugar-daddy owners are good for the game are essentially admitting defeat. It's lazy. It's like saying 'we can't be bothered to make the big changes needed to level the playing field whilst maintaining stability and encouraging fiscal responsibility. Instead, we're going to let the random whims of the super-rich destabilise the current system, and at least that way some clubs will be able to slip across the divide, even if they are no more deserving of it than any of their rivals. Anyone who doesn't attract a rich owner for whatever reason is ten times more fecked than they were before, and they're also going to have to take silly risks if they want to offer their fans even a sniff of silverware. But at least we'll have the Citys and PSGs breaking up the ranks of the old firm.'

There are so many ways that the financial playing field could have been effectively and ethically levelled. An obvious approach, which has always appealed to me, is the balancing of TV money distribution against other commercial income. Effectively, a club like Manchester United with a massive income from sponsorship, advertising, merchandise sales etc, would receive a dramatically smaller slice of the TV money than a club like Wigan, with little to no brand value or corresponding commercial income. There's an appealing symmetry to that approach: you're balancing the historical success of the individual against the current success of the group. The sense of long-term meritocracy which is so crucial to the sport is maintained. The motivation to succeed in the long term is still there, and clubs still benefit from marketing themselves (which bring stable income and popularity to the sport). But the unfair advantage afforded by the timing of historical success is balanced out by the fact that clubs making less money from that get more of the rewards of the current marketability of the group product, the Premier League. After all, it's the attractiveness of the League as a whole which makes it the most valuable in the world at the moment - Germany and Spain have better top teams, but the PL is significantly more marketable because of the relative evenness of the competition. And it's the smaller teams, the teams further down the table, which bring the competition, so they should be the ones reaping the financial reward. Otherwise you're essentially paying the likes of United, Chelsea, Arsenal etc more because they lose more often to Wigan and West Brom than Madrid lose to Sociedad and Valladolid.

But this is just one hypothetical example of a potential solution - there are a multitude of ways it could be done if the desire was there. So the tl:dr is this: FFP is very obviously not the answer to anything - it's a half-arsed sticking plaster on the out of control inflation caused by super-rich owners. But not bringing in FFP is not a solution either. It's even marginally less of a solution. And 'super-rich owners are the only way for smaller clubs to compete' is not a valid argument against FFP. A valid argument against it would be: 'Why are you trying to save a burning building by shoring up the still-burning ceiling of the downstairs toilet. Go and fetch some fecking water!'
 
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Interestingly this thread holds the record, outside of the official Status Quo forum, for use of the latin phrase status quo. And it's use here does largely seem to be a bit awry. The status quo is simply the existing state of affairs but the phrase gets bandied about as though a status quo is somehow a bad thing. Its not necessarily good nor bad but simply means the present state of affairs. The current status quo referred to in this thread includes, technically, everyone.

It's also worth noting that the band Status Quo are traditionally extremely popular in former mill towns of East Cheshire where the Tippexed, sleeveless, denim jacket worn over the black leather biker jacket with arm tassles, above stonewashed and flared jeans and cuban heeled cowboy boots was a look favoured long into the 90s.
 
Well that's not quite true, given the Etihad deal covers Shirt Sponsorship, Stadium Sponsorship and Campus sponsorship (surrounding areas). It's all rolled into one big deal, which is why it's probably running closer to market value than you give it credit for. Depending which reports you believe, your shirt sponshorship with Chevrolet is worth more than that alone - so it doesn't put us on parity with United in that regard. Our commercial income is higher than you'd perhaps expect even when you remove the 'crooked' £30m Etihad deal, so we obviously have some appeal somewhere. Sponsorship's know we'll be challenging for years to come and it seems that comes at a price. (Disclaimer: I know City are not nearly as marketable as United).

That's because Manchester City have numerous deals in place, all with companies connected to your owner. All of which are obviously bullshit (in the sense that no company that wasn't related to your owners would sign it, or need to pay even half of what they did to make the deal), but are done in smaller "bit size" pieces so that you look more sympathetic to the regulations, versus PSG who just stuck two fingers up. Make no mistake both clubs are identical in terms of bogus revenues.

The top 6-7 sponsorship largest sponsorship deals that Man City have signed are all connected to Abu Dhabi companies and result in over 75% of all commercial income that City receive, all of which are connected to your owner. It's no surprise these deals are well over £5m a piece, whereas your legitimate deals with Thomas Cook, Heineken, Jaguar, Ferrostaal, Malmaison etc are/were all less than £2.5m per annum.

I personally hate the FFP Regulations and think that if Mansour wants to spend £1b on a company in Manchester then that is fantastic for our League, fantastic for the Manchester area and fantastic for the UK in general. However if the FFP rules hadn't come into force Manchester City's commercial income would not be anywhere near the £143m specified in their latest accounts (as they would have no reason to fudge it).

Look at Chelsea's commercial revenue 4 years after Abramovich took over - around £55m. This increase came from a club that was already far more well known and far more popular around the world than Manchester City. Even to this day Chelsea who were a far bigger club to start with, still are a far bigger club and have had 10 years of success at the top level (versus 3 years for City), are only posting a Commercial income of £80m.

If you seriously believe that City's Commercial revenue would be more than around £60-70m without deals made with "connected parties" then I'm afraid you are deluded.

If you are merely playing devil's advocate saying "how can they rule that City can't have a £10m training ground sponsorship deal, when Man Utd have one", then fair enough.
 
Any on the scale of City though? It was pushing on for £1bn when you first won the league. Total investment must now surely be closer to £2bn than to £1bn? That's a ridiculous amount of money. It isn't about preventing clubs gaining investment, it's about preventing the unsustainable levels of investment. How is it fair that teams who have been at the top for decades and world recognised names with legitimate commercial turnover should be outspent by a small club like City because some Arab got bored and decided to spend his family's money?

Where do these figures of £1bn and £2bn come from exactly that I see repeatedly mentioned, are we completely excluding all revenue and income and only including outgoing costs - which is NOT what FFP does. The club was taken over in summer of 2008, and below are our results since - baring in mind that transfers and wages are built into the results this is our surplus of spending to run the club. It's a vast amount of money, but a far cry from the £2bn you are coming to. Though for completion I should add that these results don't include spending on the stadium, nor the academy currently being built.

2009 - £92.5m loss
2010 - £121.3m loss
2011 - £197.5m loss
2012 - £97.9m loss
2013 - £51.6m loss
Total losses of £560.8m
 
Where do these figures of £1bn and £2bn come from exactly that I see repeatedly mentioned, are we completely excluding all revenue and income and only including outgoing costs - which is NOT what FFP does. The club was taken over in summer of 2008, and below are our results since - baring in mind that transfers and wages are built into the results this is our surplus of spending to run the club. It's a vast amount of money, but a far cry from the £2bn you are coming to. Though for completion I should add that these results don't include spending on the stadium, nor the academy currently being built.

2009 - £92.5m loss
2010 - £121.3m loss
2011 - £197.5m loss
2012 - £97.9m loss
2013 - £51.6m loss
Total losses of £560.8m
Your figures seem based on the lie that Citys 'sponsorship' deals were not financial doping.
 
Where do these figures of £1bn and £2bn come from exactly that I see repeatedly mentioned, are we completely excluding all revenue and income and only including outgoing costs - which is NOT what FFP does. The club was taken over in summer of 2008, and below are our results since - baring in mind that transfers and wages are built into the results this is our surplus of spending to run the club. It's a vast amount of money, but a far cry from the £2bn you are coming to. Though for completion I should add that these results don't include spending on the stadium, nor the academy currently being built.

2009 - £92.5m loss
2010 - £121.3m loss
2011 - £197.5m loss
2012 - £97.9m loss
2013 - £51.6m loss
Total losses of £560.8m

It also doesn't account for the hundreds of millions that several of your owners businesses have "lost" because of sponsoring Man City for ludicrous fees.

Obviously if your owner transferred £600m to your club accounts tomorrow from another of his companies, it wouldn't make City profitable over the past 6 years. Or do you disagree?
 
You're missing the point.

Teams like City or PSG don't care about the fines and don't care if that fine leads to another fine as long as they can continue to spend hundreds of millions and buy the best players.

So they might get a £5m fine this year and it might lead to a £10m fine next year but they continue exactly as they are and UEFA get their slice of the pie and everyone but their competition is happy.

Well this is their first offence. I don't think banning them from the competition was the right punishment in this case. Max salary cap on their European squad would be a hindrance and the fine would count as an expense. So assuming their revenue is £300m next year (no idea if this is accurate or not) they could spend £337m and comply (excluding facilites/youth etc). With a £5m fine they can only spend £332m. Were they to be in breach next year then perhaps they will issue something stronger than a fine; even if they don't and a larger fine is given they can only spend say £320m. Eventually the difference between their spending and FFP allowances will get to the point (along with serial offences) that they will be suspended from the competition.

The fine is not meaningless for that reason - it will restrict their ability to spend money next season. The ability of the owners to pay the fine is irrelevant.

This is just the first step along the road for UEFA. I don't think slapping them with the max punishment is proportionate. PSG on the other hand....
 
Well this is their first offence. I don't think banning them from the competition was the right punishment in this case. Max salary cap on their European squad would be a hindrance and the fine would count as an expense. So assuming their revenue is £300m next year (no idea if this is accurate or not) they could spend £337m and comply (excluding facilites/youth etc). With a £5m fine they can only spend £332m. Were they to be in breach next year then perhaps they will issue something stronger than a fine; even if they don't and a larger fine is given they can only spend say £320m. Eventually the difference between their spending and FFP allowances will get to the point (along with serial offences) that they will be suspended from the competition.

The fine is not meaningless for that reason - it will restrict their ability to spend money next season. The ability of the owners to pay the fine is irrelevant.

This is just the first step along the road for UEFA. I don't think slapping them with the max punishment is proportionate. PSG on the other hand....

Well put.
 
Your figures seem based on the lie that Citys 'sponsorship' deals were not financial doping.

Let's completely exclude the £40m a year we've had over the last 3 seasons from Etihad (which would leave us with no stadium or shirt sponsorship revenue included in the results for that period), and it moves up to £680m. I'm not here to argue about the value of City sponsorships because you nor I can really prove what the 'fair value' of that sponsorship really should be (though I have mentioned that £40m per year isn't as ludicrous for stadium and shirt sponsorship as some are making out given some of the current deals out there), but the suggestion of £2bn wasn't accurate. That's all.
 
And it's use here does largely seem to be a bit awry. The status quo is simply the existing state of affairs but the phrase gets bandied about as though a status quo is somehow a bad thing. Its not necessarily good nor bad but simply means the present state of affairs.
I'd say the status quo has a mildly perjorative quality implying conservatism, resistance to change and vested interests.
 
Having clubs like City and PSG in the Champions League is embarrassing to the game. As a United fan it pains me to say it but id much rather have Liverpool and Marseille in there.

Only this year Dani Alves was quoted as saying he never realized there were two clubs in Manchester, I mean how can we have this ridiculous joke of a sugar daddy club in the CL representing English football, its not a big game Bayern vs City means nothing compared to Bayern v United even at the same level of the competition. Its almost like us vs Cluj just another team to pack in the numbers for the group stages.

Im probably being too harsh and bias but simply spunking ridiculous amounts of money consistently is just anti-football. 2bn?! seriously, thats insane, they should be winning the CL every year to justify that outlay.

Not much to say other than that sums up the abhorrent elitist view a section of fans seem to hold.
 
"Half of the €5.6 billion generated by the UEFA Champions League in the last decade has accrued to just ten clubs"

And people wonder why City had to spend so much to get to where we are?
 

Good post, a good read and some good points in there. I disagree that the traditionally big clubs can apportion the whole blame of large transfer fees to super-rich owners - they've had their own part to play. The cycle starts will the big clubs with large income paying big money for big players, to tempt big players away from big clubs requires even bigger fees, and every subsequent owner that comes along hikes it up that little bit further as they try and jump on to the ladder. Other things have contributed too, such as the ever increasing TV income deals.

I don't think the argument that big owners are good for the game can be dismissed so easily either, depending on how you wish the game to be of course. In terms of competitiveness you only need to take one look over at Germany, a country who on average probably pull in more income per club than we do over here, and see that without major investment nobody has been able to even touch Bayern. The one side who threatened that have seen their side dismantled over the last 12 months, losing two of their best players directly to Bayern. That's a league without any major investment to challenge the big club. On a side note there, given the rules that have come into play, when is the next time you see Bayern not winning that league from here on in?
 
"Half of the €5.6 billion generated by the UEFA Champions League in the last decade has accrued to just ten clubs"

And people wonder why City had to spend so much to get to where we are?

Could you attach a source for this, before we can give it any credibility. :)

Interesting stat if true though, and highlights the gap that the Champions League created.
 
I hate this Financial Fair Play bullshit. Find it ludicrous how this idea was sold and accepted. Or not, as we football fans are all hypocrites. I'm not happy at all watching clubs like Monaco having more financial capability than Porto, but don't find it more unfair than Porto having more financial capability than Sporting for example.

The issue for me is the hypocrisy of the name. There's no fair play in football. Since the early days of the European Cup we see clubs with power to grab every player that moves. I don't give a shit about where the money came from. Is it getting worse and needed a break? Well, why not start by ending other stuff that we've come to so easily accept just out of being around for so long?

Football's biggest problem is that it's becoming a boring and repetitive oligopoly. Good days when playing against the likes of Newcastle would make anyone scared just because of an Alan Shearer. Or even in Portugal where a club like Setúbal could boast an African Player of the Year (Yekini) that scored goals for fun against the likes of Benfica or Porto.

This "loan" thing for example. The ability of big clubs to buy everything that moves, keep them under their books, and release them if they're shit, keeping them if they come good? Does this make any sense? Limit the number of players a club can have to a set squad limit. If there's no room for a player he should be released, not kept rotating in lesser clubs until he's eventually needed or comes good due to the playing time others gave him. At least talent would be more spread out. Clubs would then need to take a hard thought before buying everything that moves, as it would mean a choice between an unproven youngster and a possibly uninspiring but reliable veteran. As it is, it's win-win if you've already developed the financial health to pull it off. You're going to tell me that a club like United doing this is in any way more "fair play" than Chelsea spending 50m in Torres without breaking a sweat? Right.

History? Historically, what has United done that much better than Liverpool? To me, the biggest difference among the status and power of both clubs seems to be that one was on top during a worldwide financial boom in the sport, whilst the other was was on top a little too early. It established a difference that could Liverpool decades to even out (this might be an ill-thought idea to which I expect rebuttal, but nevertheless threw it out there).

The argument of saving poorly managed clubs from bankruptcy sounds like a poor excuse to me as well. This is an issue that should police itself. How the hell is a threat from UEFA bigger than a threat from bankruptcy itself for the likes of Sporting (who may very well fail FFP as it stands). I'm sure as soon as soon as a few clubs started to shut down their neighbors would wise up. That cataclysmic scenario of everyone going bankrupt looks like stupid conjecture to me.

Good summary.

Again, FFP was a half-measure (either by collusion/design or ineptitude or some combination of the two). It should have aimed to discourage player movement to potentially offending clubs.

The majority of the 5m-here-10m-there discussion in the thread is moot.
 
"Half of the €5.6 billion generated by the UEFA Champions League in the last decade has accrued to just ten clubs"

And people wonder why City had to spend so much to get to where we are?
I wonder how many of those ten clubs are called Atletico Madrid and Dortmund...
 
I wonder how many of those ten clubs are called Atletico Madrid and Dortmund...

Sadly, Its arguable that they are the exception which prove the rule.

Dortmund have lost their two best players to other sides and the sane might happen to Athletico.

Great achievement to get to the final given relativd resources. Credit to their management and the way the club is ran.
 
I wonder how many of those ten clubs are called Atletico Madrid and Dortmund...

How comfortably did Bayern finish above Dortmund this season after simply signing their best player? Also, Dortmund won the Champions League in the 1997. Atletico won La Liga in 1996. It is idiotic to cite them as examples of how City could have achieved similar success with extravagant spending.
 
Good post, a good read and some good points in there. I disagree that the traditionally big clubs can apportion the whole blame of large transfer fees to super-rich owners - they've had their own part to play. The cycle starts will the big clubs with large income paying big money for big players, to tempt big players away from big clubs requires even bigger fees, and every subsequent owner that comes along hikes it up that little bit further as they try and jump on to the ladder. Other things have contributed too, such as the ever increasing TV income deals.

Oh, I definitely agree. I didn't communicate it very clearly, but what I'm trying to say is that yes, the more 'traditional' big clubs have themselves been responsible for an upturn in the rate of inflation for transfer fees and wages since the start of the big-money 'Premier League era'. But I think it's the much sharper upturn that's been forced by the sugar-daddy money flooding the market, and the incredibly short timespan it's happened over, that has really hurt the smaller clubs. As the latter part of my rambling mess of an essay above explains, I think there was and is a clear need for a fundamental shift in the culture to allow smaller clubs to more easily compete. But even without an improvement of that sort, there was the possibility of smaller clubs trying to compete before the super-rich owners started to turn up.

It's the particular nature of their investment. In footballing terms, their funds are effectively limitless, and that massively fecks up the market forces. Yes, the influx of Premier League era commercial money increased the rate of inflation in football, but because the incomes of the top clubs were going up at similar rates, that inflation was still firmly anchored in competition. The big clubs had a greater financial advantage over the small clubs than they had before, but they still had only marginal advantages over one another, and fought tooth and nail to outbid one another for players only by the very slightest amount they could. It was still a normal, stable market. Now, if PSG decide that the one thing they definitely need is a top striker, they can pay what seems to be £10m more than even the inflated asking price just in order to avoid the hassle of protracted negotiations or a bidding war. They don't need to worry about setting precedents with agent fees, so they can happily pay the absurd fee an agent demands in order to sign his player ahead of more traditionally heavyweight clubs. The selling clubs know this - they can use the easy money available from the super-rich boys to force prices higher when the traditional giants come sniffing around. And the agents know it, which is why the problem of massive agent fees has suddenly become so widespread. The market is no longer being kept honest.

I don't think the argument that big owners are good for the game can be dismissed so easily either, depending on how you wish the game to be of course. In terms of competitiveness you only need to take one look over at Germany, a country who on average probably pull in more income per club than we do over here, and see that without major investment nobody has been able to even touch Bayern. The one side who threatened that have seen their side dismantled over the last 12 months, losing two of their best players directly to Bayern. That's a league without any major investment to challenge the big club. On a side note there, given the rules that have come into play, when is the next time you see Bayern not winning that league from here on in?

I don't know if that's strictly true. I don't have the figures so I won't deny it outright, but it doesn't sound likely. The clubs lower in the Bundesliga are better looked after than the lower PL clubs, getting a bigger slice of the TV deal. But Bayern is the only German club with an impressive income, despite impressive strides from Dortmund recently. I'd be willing to bet that if you discarded the two top earners - Bayern and United, fairly neck and neck commercially - the Premier League would probably have the next three or four highest incomes. I'm certain the average would be higher in the PL. The vastly superior TV deal contributes a lot to that.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, are City's owners really that bad for football? They've invested loads of money developing City, developing their academies etc. English fans get to watch players like Aguero and Toure playing their football in England as well.

Compare that to the Glazers who loaded debts on United, and continue to leech money of out of the club. Also, I'd rather have owners like City's than owners who change a club's colours, or try to rename the club, or move them to a different city etc, to be honest.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, are City's owners really that bad for football? They've invested loads of money developing City, developing their academies etc. English fans get to watch players like Aguero and Toure playing their football in England as well.

Compare that to the Glazers who loaded debts on United, and continue to leech money of out of the club. Also, I'd rather have owners like City's than owners who change a club's colours, or try to rename the club, or move them to a different city etc, to be honest.

Exactly, Sheikh Mansour is much more beneficial to football than the Glazers are. Yet an owner who pumps his own money into his own club is going to get punished yet one who puts a club in debt and takes from it is perfectly acceptable.

However, must point out, regarding your second point that is exactly what Mansour is doing with Melbourne Heart (Now Melbourne City, having to play in blue instead of red). To be fair, given they were founded in 2008, so it's not like this is a well-established club that is having its soul ripped out. But, it is an unwelcome change for the Melbourne fans given their rivals also play in blue.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, are City's owners really that bad for football? They've invested loads of money developing City, developing their academies etc. English fans get to watch players like Aguero and Toure playing their football in England as well.

Compare that to the Glazers who loaded debts on United, and continue to leech money of out of the club. Also, I'd rather have owners like City's than owners who change a club's colours, or try to rename the club, or move them to a different city etc, to be honest.

You can always use a vast oversimplification to make a situation sound reasonable.

"Why can't I take any drugs I want, if I do it in the safety of my home? I'm not harming anybody but myself"

Its when you begin to consider the complexities that such arguments fall down.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, are City's owners really that bad for football? They've invested loads of money developing City, developing their academies etc. English fans get to watch players like Aguero and Toure playing their football in England as well.

Compare that to the Glazers who loaded debts on United, and continue to leech money of out of the club. Also, I'd rather have owners like City's than owners who change a club's colours, or try to rename the club, or move them to a different city etc, to be honest.

It's an interesting view, with some merit.

There are some on here who understand the issues in regard to FFP and make good points as to why it is a good idea.

The thing to remember though I'd that on here, as a United forum, a lot of the pro-FFP is simply anti-City or any non traditional clubs that spend big, especially when we don't, rather than any real concern for the long term future of football. I'm not sure the average football fan is that bothered, and as I've put in other posts above, clubs up and down the country arguably benefit from the big money clubs splashing the cash about. The money does, in some senses, trickle down the leagues.

FFP or some kind of limit is wise but I'm not sure UEFA are serious about actually stopping this. This was a chance to make a statement and unless things change it doesn't look like that's going to happen.

As it is City's owners seem relatively sensible in terms of long term plans. The worry is that other owners come into the game without as sensible long term aspirations and so end up trying to keep up. That said - the likes of Leeds show that has been happening pre Chelsea anyway and it's also the case that clubs in other leagues have struggled financially trying to keep up with bigger rivals.
 
Exactly, Sheikh Mansour is much more beneficial to football than the Glazers are. Yet an owner who pumps his own money into his own club is going to get punished yet one who puts a club in debt and takes from it is perfectly acceptable.

However, must point out, regarding your second point that is exactly what Mansour is doing with Melbourne Heart (Now Melbourne City, having to play in blue instead of red). To be fair, given they were founded in 2008, so it's not like this is a well-established club that is having its soul ripped out. But, it is an unwelcome change for the Melbourne fans given their rivals also play in blue.

And I remember similar being done with Hyde too who City helped out: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2137049/Manchesters-club--Hyde.html
 
Just to play devil's advocate, are City's owners really that bad for football? They've invested loads of money developing City, developing their academies etc. English fans get to watch players like Aguero and Toure playing their football in England as well.

Compare that to the Glazers who loaded debts on United, and continue to leech money of out of the club. Also, I'd rather have owners like City's than owners who change a club's colours, or try to rename the club, or move them to a different city etc, to be honest.

The problem FFP tries to get at isn't lack of investment or people profiting from football, it's keeping it competitive. Doping and inflating fees and wages affects everyone, what the Glazer's have done affects no one but United.
 
While this will not solve all problems, I think a strict implementation of the limited number of eligible players for a squad is enough to counter what I believe is the biggest advantage loaded clubs have against the rest of the teams, which is the ability to hoard players and keep them from playing for the opposition. A stricter policy that also takes into account the ability for a club to buy several players and choose who to loan them out to, circumventing the limited squad rules.

You can always use a vast oversimplification to make a situation sound reasonable.

"Why can't I take any drugs I want, if I do it in the safety of my home? I'm not harming anybody but myself"

Its when you begin to consider the complexities that such arguments fall down.

I don't get what you're saying here.

I must not be the only supporter of a traditional big club who sees FFP for what it is. Its a way for the bigger clubs to keep smaller clubs from getting an injection of cash and threatening the status quo.

If UEFA and FIFA were really interested in fair competition, they'd look into implementing salary caps, strictly limited squad rosters and look at ways to feasibly adapt the American pro sports model into football.

Of course, I am not advocating a free-for-all where clubs are open to foreign investors and we see oil barons and sovereign nations battling it out in the football world. Its a complicated issue, I understand.
 
Seems apparent City are perplexed at UEFA's findings against City, having being in regular talks with UEFA over all our finances we were lead to believe we would not face any punishment and they were happy with our efforts. As such, City are not willing to accept ANY punishment and will take this all the way, unless UEFA back down.
 
"Half of the €5.6 billion generated by the UEFA Champions League in the last decade has accrued to just ten clubs"

And people wonder why City had to spend so much to get to where we are?
So man City had to spend so much to catch up £28 million a year? That's a Fellaini.
 
I must not be the only supporter of a traditional big club who sees FFP for what it is. Its a way for the bigger clubs to keep smaller clubs from getting an injection of cash and threatening the status quo.

City quickly rise to the 'bigger club level'. Whilst they are at it, they increase all the wages/transfer fees for all the smaller clubs. Mediocre player? 15 Million please.

The gap to the smaller clubs is rising, but that's because clubs that are run on unsustainable models have an advantage over those who need to break even. Only financial powerhouses will be able to compete soon, I don't see how Everton or Stoke profit from City's excesses unless I am missing something.
 
People need to look at the City situation from a different angle. The initial investment came from outside football but you have to consider the trajectory the club will go in when you assess the future impact of the initial investment. City seem to be planning properly for the future by focusing on improving their academy, expanding their worldwide appeal, and expanding their stadium. It is not outlandish to suggest that within 10 or 15 years they will have the proper infrastructure to be able to sustain themselves while challenging for top honours. At that point, the end result will be fantastic for football. You have effectively added a "big club" that makes the game better by competing with a small list of historically privileged clubs that usually share the trophies in between them. The point about the initial investment will be moot at that point and considered similar to a debt that is not tied to strict amortization schedule. At the end of the day, the owner will be reaping the profits once the club is financially healthy enough to sustain itself and produce profit so the initial investment will then be justified.
 
City quickly rise to the 'bigger club level'. Whilst they are at it, they increase all the wages/transfer fees for all the smaller clubs. Mediocre player? 15 Million please. The gap to the smaller clubs is rising, but that's because clubs that are run on unsustainable models have an advantage over those who need to break even. Only financial powerhouses will be able to compete soon, I don't see how Everton or Stoke profit from City's excesses unless I am missing something.

In simple terms, any money put into football stays in football until it is taken out (e.g. City spend £20m on Lescott, Everton re-invest and so does every subsequent club that the money finds it's way to from there on in) - the money stays inside the sport until a club owner eventually takes it out as a dividend, or uses it to pay off large debts at the club. Arguments can be made that big investors into the sport are good for the game, but like any arguement there are subsequent critics. I don't think it's a clear cut debate.
 
In simple terms, any money put into football stays in football until it is taken out (e.g. City spend £20m on Lescott, Everton re-invest and so does every subsequent club that the money finds it's way to from there on in) - the money stays inside the sport until a club owner eventually takes it out as a dividend, or uses it to pay off large debts at the club. Arguments can be made that big investors into the sport are good for the game, but like any arguement there are subsequent critics. I don't think it's a clear cut debate.

A fair point. However, if teams buy a lot of players from abroad, it will at least leave the premier league. Although Real Madrid personally sponsored Tottenham's spurge (but most this money left the country again). I think it's probably rising wage bills that cost clubs the most money. Everton can't afford 100k a week players really, although it won't be long until it's expected for them to pay that. They cannot afford big names. Unlike the transfer fee, which they might be lucky to have a club overpay for a player, see: Fellaini, the wages of their replacements is a different story.
 
Manchester City are still a long way off agreeing a settlement with UEFA over sanctions for breaking financial fair play rules, it can be disclosed.

The club have until the end of the week to agree to the sanctions or face the case being handed to a panel for a non-negotiable decision.

City are one of nine European clubs, also including Paris St Germain who are being dealt with for rule breaches, and it is understood they are one of those furthest away from reaching an agreement.

The initial settlement offer made to City included financial restrictions on their Champions League squad for next season, and possibly a cut in the size of the squad, as well as a heavy fine.

Neither City nor UEFA would comment but it is understood the Manchester club have been negotiating forcefully for a significant reduction in that sanction but have been struggling to make progress.

The risk, however, is that if they are unable to agree a deal with UEFA then they could face even stiffer sanctions from UEFA's club financial control board's adjudicatory panel.

No club is expected to be excluded from the Champions League for breaching the spending limits, the maximum possible sanction.

Both Manchester City and Paris St Germain are believed to have fallen foul of the FFP rules with sponsorship deals related to each clubs' owners.

Abu Dhabi-owned City have a £40million a year deal with Etihad airways, while Qatar-owned PSG have a back-dated deal with the Qatar Tourist Authority which is worth up to €200 million (£165million) a year.

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger said last week UEFA needs to show it means business over FFP.

Wenger said: "There are rules to apply for the financial fair play. If you don't respect them, you have to apply the rules.

"One of the rules is that normally you should be banned for the excess of the financial amount that is not justified, that is if you are £100million overboard, you should be punished for £100million of your wages bill in the Champions League."
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...rheads-over-financial-sanctions-30245432.html
 
Lawyer Jean-Louis Dupont has claimed that Uefa's Financial Fair Play (FFP) regulations are against the law and feels European football's governing body will not achieve their objectives with the current rules.

The Belgian, who made a name for himself when defending Jean-Marc Bosman's right in what eventually led to the Bosman ruling in 1995, decided to challenge FFP at the European Commission back in May 2013 and he remains adamant that Uefa's plans don't comply with European law.

"The premise that you shouldn't spend more than you earn is a good idea, but Uefa's solution is not the answer. The public will love it, but you'd need an economic, political and legal analysis to explain why it's wrong. The system is inadequate and illegal under European law," Dupont told Le Parisien.

"The rules create a number of restrictions, like limiting investments and limiting transfers. Clubs will employ fewer players and will pay lower wages. It also affects the right of free movement of capital, workers and providing services.

"Uefa says football shouldn't be a contest of money, buy you can only laugh when you look at the teams that dominate the Champions League. These are the richest teams out there.

"Forcing clubs to balance their finances is interesting, but it doesn't achieve Uefa's purported objectives. This effectively forbids clubs to invest and blocks the development process. The rich clubs will continue to dominate. A rich investor can no longer take an average club and build it into a European force."