Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"

Jacko21 said:
The greatest trick Guardiola has pulled is convincing the rest of the league that trying to go toe-to-toe with them is futile. Because it means the game is won without a ball being kicked.

The teams that have enjoyed most success against Guardiola are the ones brave enough to press together, make it physical and attack in numbers - but seldom have we seen teams to do that this season against Manchester City, for fear of what they may incur.
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Spurs got absolutely decimated trying to go 'toe to toe' with them. Liverpool scraped past them at home going toe to toe.

There is no trick, you aren't some managing savant that can see something that those far better than you can't see.

This City team are stacked with quality and have a system they all believe in. There is no way to counter Man City, they are just a good team and you either need to be a very good team yourselves and/or get lucky.

Press this City team and they'll play through you, sit back against this City team and they'll pick you apart.
 
Random Task said:
He's already built one of the strongest teams the prem has ever seen, loathed as we are to admit it, how much further can he be expected to take them at this point? Should this team of his win the CL this season or next, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he will be heading for pastures new directly after. Pep is hot property right now, Barca would take him back in an instant, Real will be looking for a new manager very shortly following a poor season by their standards and PSG are rumoured to be sniffing around him as we speak. Plus he has refused to commit to City whenever the question has been asked of him.
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Guardiola will never return at Barca as a manager, he said it himself. That is a closed chapter in his life.
Real Madrid?! No chance in hell lol Guardiola is not just a former player and a coach of Barca , he IS Barca!
PSG? I highly doubt about that. At least not straight after City. I still think he will go to Italy next but when exactly it is very hard to tell.
 
PepG said:
Guardiola will never return at Barca as a manager, he said it himself. That is a closed chapter in his life.
Real Madrid?! No chance in hell lol Guardiola is not just a former player and a coach of Barca , he IS Barca!
PSG? I highly doubt about that. At least not straight after City. I still think he will go to Italy next but when exactly it is very hard to tell.
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I feel like he would eventually end up at AC Milan if they get their act together a bit. He has always had a lot of respect for that club.
 
Keeps It tidy said:
I feel like he would eventually end up at AC Milan if they get their act together a bit. He has always had a lot of respect for that club.
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One Italian club he may manage one day is Brescia. Maybe when he's winding down a bit.
 
Next season you'll see more teams committing to a low block when playing City. Not many teams have the personnel and tactical nuance required to properly press against City. Those who can't, will put 10 men behind the ball and let City dance in midfield with the ball.
 
Random Task said:
He's already built one of the strongest teams the prem has ever seen, loathed as we are to admit it, how much further can he be expected to take them at this point? Should this team of his win the CL this season or next, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he will be heading for pastures new directly after. Pep is hot property right now, Barca would take him back in an instant, Real will be looking for a new manager very shortly following a poor season by their standards and PSG are rumoured to be sniffing around him as we speak. Plus he has refused to commit to City whenever the question has been asked of him.
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Yeah but then why not try and do something spectacular with that team. I think what @Denis_unwise mentioned about the burnout and sebatical is probably more realistic. As for Real, I think there is a snowballs chance in hell he ever goes there.
Just feel like he is in a pretty fortunate position and the only other teams with the power to allow him so much freedom would be United and PSG. Maybe he would fancy PSG if he wins the CL with City to go and try and win 3 with 3 different teams from 3 different countries but honestly just don’t see him leaving for another team, not anytime soon.
 


Pep Guardiola talks about Johan Cruijff, the 3rd man concept and Body oreintation in 2007/2008, a year before he took over from Frank Rijkaard.
 
breakout67 said:
Spurs got absolutely decimated trying to go 'toe to toe' with them. Liverpool scraped past them at home going toe to toe.

There is no trick, you aren't some managing savant that can see something that those far better than you can't see.

This City team are stacked with quality and have a system they all believe in. There is no way to counter Man City, they are just a good team and you either need to be a very good team yourselves and/or get lucky.

Press this City team and they'll play through you, sit back against this City team and they'll pick you apart.
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Not suggesting I am a managerial savant, but I think most can agree that doing what Everton and Chelsea did in sitting back and not having an option to counter is entirely unproductive and will only result in one outcome. Not engaging this team at all is NOT the answer. It never has been against a Guardiola side. At the very least you can stick a boot in, rouse the home crowd and reduce the amount of time each City player has to think. It's a cheap, cynical tactic but one that can prove profitable. Because letting any Guardiola team operate in serenity is a recipe for disaster.

The domestic and European teams that have enjoyed the most success against Pep's Barca, Bayern and City are the ones who can either effectively deny space and then use the ball efficiently on the counter or be brave, ruffle some feathers and attack Pep's defence in numbers. Pressing a la Spurs or Liverpool is undeniably hard to emulate, but everything else can be achieved through sheer hard work and belief.

You're implying that there isn't a way to beat this City team - which is precisely the problem. Too many managers share your defeatism. So many teams take to the field with City with a defeatist attitude. That is precisely what Guardiola wants. Because it makes his and his teams job much easier. Ferguson used Old Trafford to his advantage in the same manner, teams would turn up fearing the worst and go on to lose 3-0.

Sitting back, accepting your fate and not having a plan as to how to score is a cowardly approach. I'm not denying that are an exceptional team, but every team is beatable, even one managed by Pep Guardiola. Opposition simply aren't doing enough to unnerve City and to plant doubt. That only serves to embolden them. Confidence is a wonderful thing in football and City have a bucketful of it - until someone or something is brave enough to bring them down a peg or two, the pattern for upcoming seasons will be set.

Anyone who has watched football for long enough recognises the conditions in which certain teams and managers like to operate. It doesn't take a genius to work out that upsetting those conditions will give you a greater chance of success.
 
I think Guardiola will stay longer in City than he did in Barça and Bayern. He left Barça because he didn't get along with the new board (Rosell at the time), I'm sure he would have stayed if Laporta didn't leave. But Pep will never admit in public that, even though is a public secret in Spain. As for Bayern, he just wanted control of everything and often clashed with the board and staff (the medical team, the transfers). City basically is his club now, he has carte blanche in every aspect. He might not love the history of the club or the country (I don't know, just throwing possible negatives) itself but I'm sure that having freedom in his work trumps everything else. He wants to be Cruyff in terms of modeling a club after his ideas, and City is the most viable option right now
 
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
 
Judas said:
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
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It's why - say if we got Poch - I wouldn't be calling for his head after a couple of trophyless seasons which many claim we would do. We need to build for the future - these stop gaps might get us a trophy now, but we'll have to constantly re-build which isn't ideal. All I'd want from him is to see him implement a style of football and work on us excelling at it. The trophies can - hopefully - come later.
 
Judas said:
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
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I'd argue against that. They're more likely to struggle under a new manager who has a different approach, especially if they've well and truly drank the Pep coolaid. They play a very specific way and to change that will put them into a transitional period.
 
Judas said:
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
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Even Barca have slowly gone away from Pep's style since he left.
 
Ridge Racer said:
I think Guardiola will stay longer in City than he did in Barça and Bayern. He left Barça because he didn't get along with the new board (Rosell at the time), I'm sure he would have stayed if Laporta didn't leave. But Pep will never admit in public that, even though is a public secret in Spain. As for Bayern, he just wanted control of everything and often clashed with the board and staff (the medical team, the transfers). City basically is his club now, he has carte blanche in every aspect. He might not love the history of the club or the country (I don't know, just throwing possible negatives) itself but I'm sure that having freedom in his work trumps everything else. He wants to be Cruyff in terms of modeling a club after his ideas, and City is the most viable option right now
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He’ll do a runner when another team takes the fight to them and beats them. He can’t handle pressure, he’s a weak man. They’re crushing it right now and all is well, but if they have one season where they don’t win the league, he’s gone.
 
El Zoido said:
He’ll do a runner when another team takes the fight to them and beats them. He can’t handle pressure, he’s a weak man. They’re crushing it right now and all is well, but if they have one season where they don’t win the league, he’s gone.
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so why didn't he leave City the past season?
 
Ridge Racer said:
Or maybe your theory is based on non-concrete evidence and you’re talking bollocks.
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Maybe. He looked like he was on the verge of breakdown last season though, he was very clearly struggling. Probably because he’s earning millions a year to deliver the league title and he’d failed. This season he’s succeeded but when he fails again will he regroup and rebuild? Only he can answer that but I’m fairly confident he’ll take flight when he feels the fight is too hard.
 
Judas said:
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
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Yup, but will future managers be so successful in getting them to play like Pep?
 
Judas said:
The most annoying thing is, I think even when Pep goes, City are set now, they've got a blueprint and for the foreseeable future, whatever manager takes over, they'll pretty much stick to what Pep has got them doing.
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Yeah, like we did under Ancelotti.
 
Jacko21 said:
Not suggesting I am a managerial savant, but I think most can agree that doing what Everton and Chelsea did in sitting back and not having an option to counter is entirely unproductive and will only result in one outcome. Not engaging this team at all is NOT the answer. It never has been against a Guardiola side. At the very least you can stick a boot in, rouse the home crowd and reduce the amount of time each City player has to think. It's a cheap, cynical tactic but one that can prove profitable. Because letting any Guardiola team operate in serenity is a recipe for disaster.

The domestic and European teams that have enjoyed the most success against Pep's Barca, Bayern and City are the ones who can either effectively deny space and then use the ball efficiently on the counter or be brave, ruffle some feathers and attack Pep's defence in numbers. Pressing a la Spurs or Liverpool is undeniably hard to emulate, but everything else can be achieved through sheer hard work and belief.

You're implying that there isn't a way to beat this City team - which is precisely the problem. Too many managers share your defeatism. So many teams take to the field with City with a defeatist attitude. That is precisely what Guardiola wants. Because it makes his and his teams job much easier. Ferguson used Old Trafford to his advantage in the same manner, teams would turn up fearing the worst and go on to lose 3-0.

Sitting back, accepting your fate and not having a plan as to how to score is a cowardly approach. I'm not denying that are an exceptional team, but every team is beatable, even one managed by Pep Guardiola. Opposition simply aren't doing enough to unnerve City and to plant doubt. That only serves to embolden them. Confidence is a wonderful thing in football and City have a bucketful of it - until someone or something is brave enough to bring them down a peg or two, the pattern for upcoming seasons will be set.

Anyone who has watched football for long enough recognises the conditions in which certain teams and managers like to operate. It doesn't take a genius to work out that upsetting those conditions will give you a greater chance of success.
Click to expand...

Where did I say there is no way to beat this City team? I said there is no way to 'counter' this City team. There is no special formula that will make their system ineffective. Having a top quality team helps, and working together as a team will improve your chances, if you're lucky you can play them on an off day.

The fact that you think Chelsea had no option to counter is nonsensical. And I'm assuming when you talked about 'sitting back, accepting your fate and not having a plan as to how to score' applies to them, which is also nonsensical. Sometimes, this City team are good enough on the day to stop you from counter attacking.

A team that gets 100 points in the league (which they probably will get very close to) isn't waiting to be found out, they aren't employing some mind trick. City will be in and around 1st place next season as well because they have a calculated approach to their play, it works because it's a good system.

City are very similar to Mourinho's first Chelsea team; they work as a single unit and know exactly what to do on the pitch; they are very mechanic when they play. The only way to beat them is to build a similarly efficient team, and it also helps if you get some luck.
 
breakout67 said:
Where did I say there is no way to beat this City team? I said there is no way to 'counter' this City team. There is no special formula that will make their system ineffective. Having a top quality team helps, and working together as a team will improve your chances, if you're lucky you can play them on an off day.

The fact that you think Chelsea had no option to counter is nonsensical. And I'm assuming when you talked about 'sitting back, accepting your fate and not having a plan as to how to score' applies to them, which is also nonsensical. Sometimes, this City team are good enough on the day to stop you from counter attacking.

A team that gets 100 points in the league (which they probably will get very close to) isn't waiting to be found out, they aren't employing some mind trick. City will be in and around 1st place next season as well because they have a calculated approach to their play, it works because it's a good system.

City are very similar to Mourinho's first Chelsea team; they work as a single unit and know exactly what to do on the pitch; they are very mechanic when they play. The only way to beat them is to build a similarly efficient team, and it also helps if you get some luck.
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I don’t disagree with most of what you say, but I do believe too many opponents have made it all too comfortable for Manchester City. You know when Guardiola’s teams are unnerved when they start lashing out, pleading with the referee and making stray passes - those conditions are far more favourable when trying to beat them. Showing too much respect is futile.

Did you honestly watch the City/Chelsea game and think ‘well there’s nothing Chelsea can do, City are just too good.’ Chelsea we’re cowardly, they didn’t even try to force a mistake, let alone play with any kind of efficiency in possession.

A Guardiola team at their peak are something special, but not unbeatable. No team is perfect, Guardiola’s teams have always been vulnerable defensively, but you have to show courage. Guardiola has made a mockery of the Premier League this season - because he’s shown up many a manger and teams as defeatists. Managers who’d sooner take their punishment rather than look for weakness.

You don’t have to play like City to beat City, nor do you need a heap of luck. You need cynicism - and any team, regardless of ability can do that.
 
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haram said:
Isn't that the board and Ancelloti's fault though?
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That was kind of my point, the routines they have incorporated right now can be gone very quickly if the next coach doesn't follow a similar approach. (Or simply none at all, like Carlo)
 
Jacko21 said:
I don’t disagree with most of what you say, but I do believe too many opponents have made it all too comfortable for Manchester City. You know when Guardiola’s teams are unnerved when they start lashing out, pleading with the referee and making stray passes - those conditions are far more favourable when trying to beat them. Showing too much respect is futile.

Did you honestly watch the City/Chelsea game and think ‘well there’s nothing Chelsea can do, City are just too good.’ Chelsea we’re cowardly, they didn’t even try to force a mistake, let alone play with any kind of efficiency in possession.

A Guardiola team at their peak are something special, but not unbeatable. No team is perfect, Guardiola’s teams have always been vulnerable defensively, but you have to show courage. Guardiola has made a mockery of the Premier League this season - because he’s shown up many a manger and teams as defeatists. Managers who’d sooner take their punishment rather than look for weakness.

You don’t have to play like City to beat City, nor do you need a heap of luck. You need cynicism - and any team, regardless of ability can do that.
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Care to elaborate?
 
GhastlyHun said:
That was kind of my point, the routines they have incorporated right now can be gone very quickly if the next coach doesn't follow a similar approach. (Or simply none at all, like Carlo)
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I think City had been prepared for Pep's arrival for a while. I'm sure they have a plan for when he departs as well.
 
Jacko21 said:
Did you honestly watch the City/Chelsea game and think ‘well there’s nothing Chelsea can do, City are just too good.’ Chelsea we’re cowardly, they didn’t even try to force a mistake, let alone play with any kind of efficiency in possession.
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That's true and a lot of people have also said that. But what is usually ignored is that Chelsea were next heading to the Camp Nou for the 2nd leg.
I don't see anything wrong with refusing to press and chase City players when you have Barca away next. It would have killed their energy and made defeat certain in the Champions League.
Having said all that, they still lost to Barca but we all saw how fresh they were and they had a chance winning. Conte did nothing wrong.
 
Random Task said:
Care to elaborate?
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Whilst cynicism in football is more than just tactical fouls, I do think this extract details one way of how to enjoy success against Pep's side - without needing to be on their level as it were:

Essentially, the tactical foul is as pure and undignified an image of resultism as it is possible to witness in football. The three steps to committing one involve both an awareness of inferiority and an unwillingness to accept it, calculation and a good dose of cynicism. It is the recognition and nonchalant destruction of opportunity, an offence to most people’s ideas of what ‘good’ football is. Beyond other forms of gamesmanship, which can be spur of the moment or can involve rushes of blood to the head, it is thought through and incorporated.

While it stands against most people’s concept of good football, it must be said that there is also a great deal of character in the act of tactical fouling. It requires the collective good of the team to be prioritised ahead of individual pride, to look a fool so the team might win. Football is, after all, a team sport, and the willingness to go through with the tactical foul suggests genuine humility on the part of the offender.
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Playing against a Pep team in full flight can be a humbling experience, so you have to set pride to one side and be cynical. If that's what it takes.
 
I’m almost certain Pep will extend in summer, he’ll only have a year left on his current deal at the end of this season. I personally think he’ll stay for around 5 years all in, so a 2 year extension.
 
Topgun1 said:
That's true and a lot of people have also said that. But what is usually ignored is that Chelsea were next heading to the Camp Nou for the 2nd leg.
I don't see anything wrong with refusing to press and chase City players when you have Barca away next. It would have killed their energy and made defeat certain in the Champions League.
Having said all that, they still lost to Barca but we all saw how fresh they were and they had a chance winning. Conte did nothing wrong.
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True, but it doesn't excuse the performance. That were totally nonplussed. The reigning champions willingly bending over.
 
I’m loving this talk of teams giving up before facing city. When Pep was at Barça one of the most common criticisms was that the other La Liga sides respected them too much and any mid table PL team would give them a harder challenge.

The fact is that this brand of football tends to demotivate most teams. It’s not only just a matter of going toe to toe, because that will lead to a bigger thrashing most of the time (remember that 5-0 clásico). Unless you can clone Klopp or buy Messi, the fact is that beating a Pep side goes down to luck most of the time.
 
Jacko21 said:
Whilst cynicism in football is more than just tactical fouls, I do think this extract details one way of how to enjoy success against Pep's side - without needing to be on their level as it were:



Playing against a Pep team in full flight can be a humbling experience, so you have to set pride to one side and be cynical. If that's what it takes.
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This extract is essentially advocating "kicking the shit out of them" as a perfectly viable strategy as long as it is implemented in a less cynical, more humane manner.

Brilliant.
 
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