Manchester City under Pep Guardiola | Pep on City v Liverpool ref: "He likes to be special"

TwoSheds said:
A really unhelpful point then considering I never suggested winning a match was what made his tactics better than Guardiola's. The fact they were better is what makes them better.
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Well not exactly. But you did say this:

'And they only conceded an own goal from a mistake off Cahill, ergo it worked.'

Is that not pretty much saying the same thing? We only conceded one goal ergo the tactics were right.

It is hardly like you genuinely shut Man City out from creating good chances. They still created some huge chances, including an open goal.
 
So are United played playing like a pair of Queens and just getting bad beats ? I like this poker analogy of the premier league.
 
africanspur said:
Well not exactly. But you did say this:

'And they only conceded an own goal from a mistake off Cahill, ergo it worked.'

Is that not pretty much saying the same thing? We only conceded one goal ergo the tactics were right.

It is hardly like you genuinely shut Man City out from creating good chances. They still created some huge chances, including an open goal.
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I don't support Chelsea.

It worked once. Just like it worked many times for them. Yes they got lucky, yes they can still concede, not score, lose games. However, they set up to give themselves the best chance of winning and then did. Very simple point, doesn't need qualifying.
 
TwoSheds said:
The whole point of Conte's sitting deep and packing the central areas is to not concede goals despite having shite defenders. And they only conceded an own goal from a mistake off Cahill, ergo it worked.
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You can't say that in a game in which city went ahead and among the several other chances had one which was literally harder to miss than convert. City not scoring more than one goal was down to city, not chelsea

If that was a one off game I might agree with you but Chelsea have been winning like that for many consecutive games now. And similarly City failing to win. It's not a coincidence - Conte is getting his tactics right while Guardiola is not.
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And that's what i meant when i said Conte won the strategic battle, but not the tactical one.
 
giorno said:
You can't say that in a game in which city went ahead and among the several other chances had one which was literally harder to miss than convert. City not scoring more than one goal was down to city, not chelsea


And that's what i meant when i said Conte won the strategic battle, but not the tactical one.
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Eh? That makes no sense, the tactics Chelsea have been using are the same every game. City are also using more or less the same tact every game. One set of tactics is working, the other is not - despite arguably having better players.
 
TwoSheds said:
Eh? That makes no sense, the tactics Chelsea have been using are the same every game. City are also using more or less the same tact every game. One set of tactics is working, the other is not - despite arguably having better players.
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I see the problem. You're talking about their overall tactics -which in chelsea's case are definitely not always the same-, i was talking to the specific tactics used in this one game.

Yes, in that sense you are right, conte's tactics are working, but i disagree that guardiola's aren't. City consistently put themselves in a position to win, their failures are down to individual mistakes and bad performances by their stars. And yet, those same players, those stars, are clearly capable of playing better, which suggests their problem right now is one of form and confidence, not tactics.
 
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giorno said:
I see the problem. You're talking about their overall tactics -which in chelsea's case are definitely not always the same-, i was talking to the specific tactics used in this one game.

Yes, in that sense you are right, conte's tactics are working, but i disagree that guardiola's aren't. City consistently put themselves in a position to win, their failures are down to individual mistakes and bad performances by their stars. And yet, those same players, those stars, are clearly capable of playing better, which suggests their problem right now is one of form and belief, not tactics.
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Formation, defensive line, style of passing...tactics. They also play the right players for their tactics /tactics for their players.

City's problem is not simply form and belief, it's that they leave themselves way too open and they know they're never safe in a game unless they put 3 or 4 in.

Same as our problem isn't just "luck". It's to do with poor substitutions and the wrong mindset when we're winning or need a goal. You make your own luck.
 
TwoSheds said:
City's problem is not simply form and belief, it's that they leave themselves way too open and they know they're never safe in a game unless they put 3 or 4 in.
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No, it's usually down to individual mistakes and bad luck. Though there's definitely a tactical problem as well. Specifically, the players have yet to fully digest guardiola's tactics, there are still situations in which they look like deers in the headlights.

I mean, just look at Diego Costa's goal. Look at that shit. It's unbelievable. I can't even laugh at it, it's just shocking.
 
giorno said:
No, it's usually down to individual mistakes and bad luck. Though there's definitely a tactical problem as well. Specifically, the players have yet to fully digest guardiola's tactics, there are still situations in which they look like deers in the headlights.

I mean, just look at Diego Costa's goal. Look at that shit. It's unbelievable. I can't even laugh at it, it's just shocking.
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And you think Chelsea's defenders are world beaters? Conte sets up to cover for errors, Guardiola sets up to, what, keep the ball 100% of the time so that Kolarov and Stones don't actually have to defend? Even Barcelona weren't so good at keeping the ball they could play two wingers at full back and 2 (3?) defenders who can't defend at CB.
 
TwoSheds said:
And you think Chelsea's defenders are world beaters? Conte sets up to cover for errors, Guardiola sets up to, what, keep the ball 100% of the time so that Kolarov and Stones don't actually have to defend? Even Barcelona weren't so good at keeping the ball they could play two wingers at full back and 2 (3?) defenders who can't defend at CB.
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You've turned this into a who's doing the better tactical job with his team. Right now it's Conte, that's not up for debate. But i don't think Guardiola's doing a bad job overall. Yeah, he probably could get them to play in a way that is more suited to those players, A)as Zlatan said, he's a philosopher B) he was hired specifically to implement his philosophy. He wasn't hired to play catenaccio, or gegenpressing or good 'ol british style long-ball-and-run. C) his team is perfectly capable of doing what he wants them to, and have enough quality to make it effective. It's just a matter of giving them more time and letting their confidence grow. And also their stars need to start playing like stars consistently. Which they are capable of doing

...and i keep watching diego costa's goal and keeps making no sense whatsoever. 5 months of work. Biggest game of the season so far. THAT. Wow
 
giorno said:
No, it's usually down to individual mistakes and bad luck. Though there's definitely a tactical problem as well. Specifically, the players have yet to fully digest guardiola's tactics, there are still situations in which they look like deers in the headlights.

I mean, just look at Diego Costa's goal. Look at that shit. It's unbelievable. I can't even laugh at it, it's just shocking.
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How shit would the CFC defenders had looked had Luiz not barged Aguero over when he was through on goal ?

Shit happens, sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't
 
giorno said:
You've turned this into a who's doing the better tactical job with his team. Right now it's Conte, that's not up for debate. But i don't think Guardiola's doing a bad job overall. Yeah, he probably could get them to play in a way that is more suited to those players, A)as Zlatan said, he's a philosopher B) he was hired specifically to implement his philosophy. He wasn't hired to play catenaccio, or gegenpressing or good 'ol british style long-ball-and-run. C) his team is perfectly capable of doing what he wants them to, and have enough quality to make it effective. It's just a matter of giving them more time and letting their confidence grow. And also their stars need to start playing like stars consistently. Which they are capable of doing

...and i keep watching diego costa's goal and keeps making no sense whatsoever. 5 months of work. Biggest game of the season so far. THAT. Wow
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They're not capable of doing it. They need better defenders.

Doubtless Pep will buy 6 playmakers and somehow one of them will turn into a half decent centre half at some point but thats not the point. And that was the post I quoted to start off - saying Guardiola won the tactical battle. The tactical battle was won by Conte. Easily. If a manager can't adapt the players he has until such a time as he can get the players he wants to play his system, to me he's not good at tactics. Doesn't necessarily mean he's not a great manager but the best will adapt their system to the players and then adapt the players to the system, not jump straight to the sequel.
 
TwoSheds said:
They're not capable of doing it. They need better defenders.

Doubtless Pep will buy 6 playmakers and somehow one of them will turn into a half decent centre half at some point but thats not the point. And that was the post I quoted to start off - saying Guardiola won the tactical battle. The tactical battle was won by Conte. Easily. If a manager can't adapt the players he has until such a time as he can get the players he wants to play his system, to me he's not good at tactics. Doesn't necessarily mean he's not a great manager but the best will adapt their system to the players and then adapt the players to the system, not jump straight to the sequel.
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Did you even watch the game? It sounds as if you only looked at the result and decided since Conte's team won then his tactics were better. I don't think anyone would raise an eyebrow if City would have scored 4 goals that game. Aguero and KDB both had two extremely good chances to score on top of the goal they already scored.
Lets say that only one of those chances had been converted, the open goal from KDB 2min before Chelsea's equalizer, then City would have been two goals up and it would probably been game over.
Had that goal somehow made Guardiola's tactics better? Or would they have been exactly as good/poor, but a one in ten thousand miss (that had nothing to do with tactics) completely changed the fate of the game?

Imo City failed to win because of big individual mistakes by their attackers, not because they lost the tactical battle.
 
11101 said:
Largely agree with that. They were a decent team when Rivaldo was there in the late 90s but there's now this belief they have always been a European giant, which simply isn't true.

Guardiola is clearly a great coach but the foundations of Barcelona were already there, and Bayern was already complete when he joined. City is the first time he is having to build a team and still the core is already there for him.
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We gonna enter in the SIMPLICITY of such statement.

We are going to start with Barcelona being the only team that had been playing in the different Europe tournaments since their creations in 1955. lets say....consistency?

Before Rivaldo, Barcelona won 1 champions league (3 other finals), 4 cups winner cups (2 other finals), 14 leagues, 23 National Cups

Not speaking the most prestigious minor international trophies before the champions league (that it started when Barcelona's dominance ended in spain).

And yes, wasn't one of the giants of europe (with the likes of Cruyff and Maradona to name a few).

I am sure you consider United one of the all time giants pre Rivaldo:

1 champions league (no other finals), 1 cups winners cup (no other finals) 11 leagues, 9 National cups

If you consider being a european giant pre-Rivaldo only 5 teams (let's say Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Ajax, Liverpool). I could agree with that statement, but that Barcelona was there among the big ones is a fact. Another thing is that the squad that won so many trophies with Barcelona almost 5-10 years ago, played a football that will be remembered with the likes of Madrid in the 50, Pele's Brazil, Ajax/Netherlands (Total Football), and Milan's Sacchi. Where the 3 last changed completely the way football was and Barcelona as well.

And just a question, if I might ask. How old are you?
 
SCP said:
Let me guess you are an Brexiteer, and you think there is nothing better than England, maybe I am speaking with Farage no?
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No. Why do you get so defensive if someone's opinion differs to yours?

Ligue 1 is like the SPL in Scotland. PSG will win that league every year until someone remotely can match their spending. And before PSG? Lyon won it year in year out practically because again, biggest budget.

you cannot ignore that fact, it is clear as day. PSG are in a non competitive league, every team besides PSG is fighting for 2nd.... oh yay!

You cannot possibly even try arguing that the league is competitive.... surely? The league is poor, end of
 
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ivaldo said:
If you don't want to engage in a discussion then a discussion forum probably isn't the play for you buddy. And if you want to beleive tired stereotypes then go ahead and beleive them, ciao.
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He is so touchy isnt he? He is like a woman, disagree with him and he throws out the stereotypical jibes.
 
salford_ said:
No. Why do you get so defensive if someone's opinion differs to yours?

Ligue 1 is like the SPL in Scotland. PSG will win that league every year until someone remotely can match their spending. And before PSG? Lyon won it year in year out practically because again, biggest budget.

you cannot ignore that fact, it is clear as day. PSG are in a non competitive league, every team besides PSG is fighting for 2nd.... oh yay!

You cannot possibly even try arguing that the league is competitive.... surely? The league is poor, end of
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Have you looked at the Ligue 1 table recently?
 
Zlaatan said:
Did you even watch the game? It sounds as if you only looked at the result and decided since Conte's team won then his tactics were better. I don't think anyone would raise an eyebrow if City would have scored 4 goals that game. Aguero and KDB both had two extremely good chances to score on top of the goal they already scored.
Lets say that only one of those chances had been converted, the open goal from KDB 2min before Chelsea's equalizer, then City would have been two goals up and it would probably been game over.
Had that goal somehow made Guardiola's tactics better? Or would they have been exactly as good/poor, but a one in ten thousand miss (that had nothing to do with tactics) completely changed the fate of the game?

Imo City failed to win because of big individual mistakes by their attackers, not because they lost the tactical battle.
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Ok this is the last time I'm gonna say this. That happens to them every game. It's not a coincidence.

Same as we keep drawing when we should win. That is also not a coincidence.
 
TwoSheds said:
Ok this is the last time I'm gonna say this. That happens to them every game. It's not a coincidence.

Same as we keep drawing when we should win. That is also not a coincidence.
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So how do you draw the line between individual players missing loads of great scoring chances and poor tactics? Would KDB have scored his open goal if Guardiola had done something differently?
 
How many goals have they conceeded this season due to trying to "play it out from the back"?
 
Amar__ said:
How many goals have they conceeded this season due to trying to "play it out from the back"?
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Not so many directly from that. More often it's as a result of being caught with too many players up the pitch and the move breaking down leading to fleet footed opponents out running our fairly static defenders.
 
Amar__ said:
How many goals have they conceeded this season due to trying to "play it out from the back"?
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Gentleman Jim said:
Not so many directly from that. More often it's as a result of being caught with too many players up the pitch and the move breaking down leading to fleet footed opponents out running our fairly static defenders.
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Both of these points seem so 'Arsenal' in years gone by. Being 'Barce-lite' has it's drawbacks.
 
BlueCelery said:
Aguero: 10 goals - 61 shots
De Bruyne: 2 goals - 37 shots

Costa: 11 goals - 43 shots
Hazard: 8 goals - 39 shots

I'm taking the latter any day of the week personally. Hazard has raised his game immensely since the switch to 343 & has been the League's best player ever since while Costa is currently playing at a higher level than he was even at Atletico.

Thing I love most about them is they both seem to turn up almost every game. You don't see them scoring 2 or 3 goals in a random against fodder then disappearing in pressure moments. They're consistently scoring huge/important goals at crucial times.
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Aguero > Costa
Hazard > KDB

In my humble opinion of course.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
True mate.
Looking forward to our clash in a week or two. Should be a good close match :)
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Yea, it'll be an event and tell us allot about both teams although those 'little' games matter just as much. Bet you're a bit annoyed with Aguero and Fernandinho getting banned for that one. Who do you reckon will be your holding midfielder? Fernando?

I don't rate your aliases boxing skills btw

 
salford_ said:
Ligue 1 is like the SPL in Scotland. PSG will win that league every year until someone remotely can match their spending. And before PSG? Lyon won it year in year out practically because again, biggest budget.
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Tbf Lyon won thanks to their academy and smart business, they didn't really have much more spending power than the rest

you cannot ignore that fact, it is clear as day. PSG are in a non competitive league, every team besides PSG is fighting for 2nd.... oh yay!

You cannot possibly even try arguing that the league is competitive.... surely? The league is poor, end of
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But that's not why the league is poor. The league is poor because the majority of the teams in it are poor. PSG being so dominant doesn't have much impact on that since they mostly buy from outside France.

Real Madrid and Barcelona are equally dominant in Spain, yet the average level of the league behind the top 3 is still the highest in the world
 
giorno said:
Real Madrid and Barcelona are equally dominant in Spain, yet the average level of the league behind the top 3 is still the highest in the world
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It isn't though, it's weak, your TV deals means your rivals earn a pittance and as a result few teams can bring in top class talent from other leagues.
 
11101 said:
Largely agree with that. They were a decent team when Rivaldo was there in the late 90s but there's now this belief they have always been a European giant, which simply isn't true.
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While I agree with them not always having been a Euro giant, their era started with the Dream Team, not with Rivaldo.

Since 91 though, I don't think any single club can match their consistency over a 20+ year span. I don't even think you can compare them to Di Stefano's Madrid as the old European Cup format was easier to retain.
 
salford_ said:
No. Why do you get so defensive if someone's opinion differs to yours?

Ligue 1 is like the SPL in Scotland. PSG will win that league every year until someone remotely can match their spending. And before PSG? Lyon won it year in year out practically because again, biggest budget.

you cannot ignore that fact, it is clear as day. PSG are in a non competitive league, every team besides PSG is fighting for 2nd.... oh yay!

You cannot possibly even try arguing that the league is competitive.... surely? The league is poor, end of
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Do you know Monaco? Or Nice?

Leonardo Jardim? Favre?

Lyon plays better football than the current United team. Just my opinion, you have the right to express your ideas. No agreement here!
 
ivaldo said:
If you don't want to engage in a discussion then a discussion forum probably isn't the play for you buddy. And if you want to beleive tired stereotypes then go ahead and beleive them, ciao.
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And who are you to tell me what I can say or not? Do you know me?

Move on and relax.
 
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