Aye.
Manchester United are the best drilled defensive unit in league - G Neville
- Thread starter VanGaalEra
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Aye.
I'm still hoping Jones could develop into a top player, but I'm not entirely convinced he will - I'm not sure he's really shown all that much improvement in the past couple of years. Rojo was decent enough at times last season, and has plenty of potential, but again, I'm far from certain on him.
Blind's slotted in well to his centre back position in the past couple of games and will certainly be useful there, but I think it's way to preemptive to suggest that it's going to be his permanent role, or that he's going to become world class there. I think Blind's role here is a lot more likely to be that of a talented utility player who can seamlessly slip into a number of roles when we need him to. Certainly, I think that if LVG or our coaching staff felt he was going to develop into a world class centre back, we'd have been playing him there a lot more last season. Who knows, perhaps he will be, but it's a bit too soon to say when it's not even been his main position up until now.
Anyway, we don't have to sign a top class centre back, since we're looking fairly decent at the back right now, but I certainly wouldn't be against it and think it's an area we could still do with strengthening in. And adding another centre back doesn't mean that we can't give chances to players like Rojo or Jones. It's not as if they're inexperienced - Jones has been here for years, and Rojo was given plenty of opportunities last season. If they're good enough, then they'll still get game time and show their worth. When Vidic and Ferdinand were our main two centre backs, players like Evans, Jones and Smalling all featured regularly, which gave them opportunities to develop.
2 games into the seasonCome on.
The same two games people are judging him to be shit on? Come on
Those of us old enough to remember SAF's early days at the club will remember a very similar process. SAF was desperate to get his defence right, and tried very hard to sign Glen Hysen (who instead went to Liverpool) and so he got Gary Pallister instead .... we were very fortunate as Hysen was a huge flop whereas Pallister went on to become a legend.
Likewise, it was only after the 4 of Irwin, Bruce, Pallister and Parker were settled that we were able to assert ourselves with a renaissance of beautiful wing play from Giggs, Sharpe and Kanchsleskis. In those days, Arsenal, under George Graham has the best defence around, sometimes only conceding 15 goals a season! And yet SAF was able to create a defence that was as good as the Arsenal one.
We have just exited a similar period of defensive consistency with the simultaneous departures of Vidic, Ferdinand and Evra. Those losses ripped out the entire foundation of our team and rebuilding that had to be the very first job for any incoming manager.
You make some very good points which have not really been discussed on this board - I think your post is very accurate in identifying that LVG has prioritised the task for immediate action before he moves onto attacking prowess and creative play later in the season. And Im fine with that approach.
Nonsense. Mourinhos Chelsea are the best defensive unit in the league.
That's why for the past 10 months they've conceded more goals then we have right?
With question marks over Ivanovic and Terry? And Mourinho's deep line that puts the team into immediate disadvantage if they concede first(esp against better sides?) and with a different set of personnel for both lines?
They're pretty goos but we have better fullbacks and better defensive midfielders - esp in big games where Mou plays Mikel/Ramires.
And yet, City took them apart with some ease.
You obviously didn't catch the City game, or the game before that.
I like Darmian too but he's played 2 games in this league, let's not get carried away. Also we don't have better defensive midfielders seeing as they have the best one in the league in Matic. I agree that the way he sets his team up masks a lot of individual weaknesses but we are talking about the unit as a whole.
Is that stat the same if we change it to 3 months? 4 months? 20 months? Does it take into account our goalkeeper winning player of the year 2 years in a row? There's no stat i would accept as conclusive proof a team was the best drilled defensive unit in the league anyways. I'd use a hypothetical : you need a clean sheet in the next game and have to stake everything on it. Do you go for our defense or chelsea's? Keep in mind most top teams start their defending from the front so even wide players and sometimes strikers can be part of the defensive unit.
I saw both games actually and although I take the point that they struggled in both those games and we were quite defensively sound, I think it's a bit much to judge these things on the first two games of the season. Lets not forget this is a unit that defended it's way to a CL title a few years ago however flukey it was.
A lot changes in 3 years. You can't say that they have the best defence now based on performances from 3 years ago.
Using your logic, we have the best attack in the league because we scored the most goals in Fergie's last season.
Fair points, but as Neville pointed, we had a stellar defense even when we lacked a good DM and played makeshift fullbacks.
This season they're the best defensive unit? How many clean sheets to back that up?
That's ancient history though. They are obviously struggling this year. Aguero alone could've easily scored 4 or 5 in the first half hour on Sunday.
I'm not saying they are the best based on the CL run, but that that kind of experience and pressure counts for a lot. Ivanovic and Terry might not have the pace they once did but they have a huge advantage in terms of experience over the likes of shaw, blind and darmian. A lot of defending is mental as proven by our vidic rio van der sar holy trinity.
Another reason I think Chelseas unit is better is because imo Mourinho's sets up his team to defend first whereas for Van Gaal this type of solidity is just a byproduct of his philosophy. Mourinho is the best defensive manager around imo which adds to that defensive units solidity.
It's 2 games guys. 36 more to go. Chelsea will probably concede the least goals in the league this year like they have for 4 out of the last 6 years. made that stat up but i can't be bothered looking it up
Said we'd concede the least amount of the top 4 this season but on the flip side we'd score the least. LVG needs a sprinkle of stardust up front for this system to be truely successful and as it stands we don't have it. We would be better replacing Blind and Mata (albeit good players) both are square pegs in round holes.
Normally, I'd say your right. However, this season, it seems Van Gaal has set us up to be mostly defensive and prioritise setting up a successful defensive system over the offence.
We have looked very solid defensively since the last half of last season.
Part of that is due to the midfielders we have at our disposal now. We all saw how important Carrick was last season. Add in Schweinsteiger and (especially) Schneiderlin and we have strong defensive cover in midfield without sacrificing ability on the ball. The fact that we play with two of these holding midfielders provides us with a lot of cover.
Then you have the likes of Smalling, Jones and now Blind stepping up their game to varying degrees.
Beyond that, it's not surprising that a coach as system and detail orientated as LVG can drill the team into a strong defensive unit. I still suspect that Chelsea will regain their defensive superiority over everyone else (Mourinho is simply too strong a coach defensively for their current state to continue) but right now we certainly do look stronger than them defensively.
It is worth noting that Neville still expressed some doubts about our defence though. He called Blind a stop gap solution and suggested we still need to strengthen if we want to push for the title. I think both those points are correct, what we have now certainly isn't enough. However, the signs suggest that if we do strengthen further there then LVG will be able to turn us into an extremely solid side over the long term.
Part of that is due to the midfielders we have at our disposal now. We all saw how important Carrick was last season. Add in Schweinsteiger and (especially) Schneiderlin and we have strong defensive cover in midfield without sacrificing ability on the ball. The fact that we play with two of these holding midfielders provides us with a lot of cover.
Then you have the likes of Smalling, Jones and now Blind stepping up their game to varying degrees.
Beyond that, it's not surprising that a coach as system and detail orientated as LVG can drill the team into a strong defensive unit. I still suspect that Chelsea will regain their defensive superiority over everyone else (Mourinho is simply too strong a coach defensively for their current state to continue) but right now we certainly do look stronger than them defensively.
It is worth noting that Neville still expressed some doubts about our defence though. He called Blind a stop gap solution and suggested we still need to strengthen if we want to push for the title. I think both those points are correct, what we have now certainly isn't enough. However, the signs suggest that if we do strengthen further there then LVG will be able to turn us into an extremely solid side over the long term.
It just proves what's been clear for a while, our defensive is fine as it is and is more than couple of winning the title, what needs improvement is our front line. Unfortunately Rooney has now become a massive liability and LVG seems to have backed himself into a corner after saying his captain is undroppable.
Possibly . I'd need more than 2 games to make that judgement though. Even against spurs there were some hints of defensive frailty.
Yes, but Rio and Vida were the best defensive pairing in 2008-09. Doesn't mean that's the same today. Terry is old now and doesn't have the pace to play the high-line (like Mourinho said). This is very similar to our defensive decline 12-13. We were good-ish that season, but we were definitely not the best. Terry and Co will start backing off (to balance the loss of pace), and teams will be able to start scoring from distance.
Good analysis. But there has been a few of times where I've gone JESUS BLIND, get back into position mate!? I still feel he chases the ball a little bit to much, but then again I've seen Shaw also go racing out of position to do it as well.
You just say bingo.
Terry, Cahill , Ivanovic and Matic were all in the PFA team of the year last season. So unless these two games are conclusive proof they're on the decline, I don't think your point stands.
Our defense is underrated - even last season. But we looked so awful the first 3-4 months, it's not really strange that is what people remember.
But we are struggling with our balance - the first 3-4 months last season it was unbalanced one way, now it's unbalanced another way. I don't mind the idea of having 2 central midfielders sitting deep - but we can't have that if they never go forward. We still seem to struggle with finding that particular balance. But 1-0 is a lot better than 3-5 so I am not complaining too much.
But we are struggling with our balance - the first 3-4 months last season it was unbalanced one way, now it's unbalanced another way. I don't mind the idea of having 2 central midfielders sitting deep - but we can't have that if they never go forward. We still seem to struggle with finding that particular balance. But 1-0 is a lot better than 3-5 so I am not complaining too much.
I remember the question Ferguson got - what do you prefer : winning 1-0 or 3-2. And he replied with a smile "3-2 at the beginning of the season, 1-0 near the end"
Bada doing da doing doing doing!!
That's my line!
It was no secret we were doing well defensively as the season rumbled on last season, as we were always around the same number of goals conceded as Southampton, whose defence was getting plenty of plaudits. But it seemed that pundits and neutrals alike were unanimous in saying that it was all down to De Gea at that time, and nobody else.
It's good to hear our defence getting praise now, but last season, it got little, if any at all.
It's good to hear our defence getting praise now, but last season, it got little, if any at all.
Don't agree. Look at Graham's Arsenal, Jose's Chelsea and even United in 2009 when we won a lot of game 1-0, setting a record for the longest run without conceding. You can win titles either way.
I remember the question Ferguson got - what do you prefer : winning 1-0 or 3-2. And he replied with a smile "3-2 at the beginning of the season, 1-0 near the end"
typical Fergie
Doesn't matter mate, some can see into the future and he's playing shit.
The 5-3 game last season clouded a lot of peoples views I think. That gave us the label of being shambolic at the back and we have never been able to shake that off despite the actual performances or results.
It's sort of how people were still calling De Gea dodgy well after he'd sorted himself out. It took him about 18 months of great performances before the media acknowledged it. I imagine we'll need to keep 10 clean sheets in a row or something before the perception changes.
It's sort of how people were still calling De Gea dodgy well after he'd sorted himself out. It took him about 18 months of great performances before the media acknowledged it. I imagine we'll need to keep 10 clean sheets in a row or something before the perception changes.
I'd rather say it's meaty.
Except they're not.
Fair enough I thought we were 3-5-2 away to Leicester?