[KM]

Argentina conceded 4 goals in 7 matches and yet defense wasn't the reason why they made into WC final. People are ridiculous here.

 

[FromTheBench]

Bebe wasn't a "star" in the Portuguese league unless Shane Long/Rickie Lambert is a star in the English league.

Anyway, Wonder what reactions would be on here if we bought Mangala instead for 32 million pounds.

 

[entropy]

Bayern recent first team signings and the signings who help them dominate europe.

Lewandowski
Gotze
Martinez
Alcantara
Ribery
Neuer
Dante
Manzudic


Other than the last two, all were "names" as you termed them. Skinting on players is never going to get you to the top of europe unless you have an exceptional youth system.

Half of these players weren't crucial to their success last season. What exactly are you trying to prove? Bayern have a healthy group of home grown players who have come through their youth squads. What about barca's dominance how many of those players were home grown compared to big money signings?

 

[penalty snot]

This is a very 'modern' view in my opinion. Not peculiar to United fans but a creeping trend with how fans perceive football at the top level. It's actually quite unhealthy in my opinion and is a product of what football is becoming.

It seems that if you're not buying absolute proven quality for £25m+ then signings don't get fans giddy. A lot of top clubs are indulging in a nonsense-based reality where they are exchanging 'world-class talent' around Europe and if your club doesn't get one fans become disappointed at the purchase of a player without the same cache.

But ask yourselves this: when have United built a team around the purchase of two or three world class signings in a window, which is being suggested as the solution to all the squad's problems? It seems that building a team has become secondary to a clutch of fans who regard the name and glitz of an individual signing as the chief concern.

I'm reading it on here everyday about Liverpool's 'underwhelming' spending because they've not bought 'names'. It doesn't strike the average whopper that squads, in the main, are built around team-building. Rodgers is growing a squad with balance and room to develop. It may not work but it's a sane way of proceeding.

Bayern didn't achieve great things through buying world class players from all corners of Europe. Nor did Barca until recently. The likes of Real, PSG and City have distorted perceptions of how squads should be built. It's caused fans to look on in envy while acting like spoilt children when their own club only pays £16m on a strong, yet unglamorous, looking defender.

In short, stop playing Football Manager with your club - it makes you look like a 14 year old boy!

Fans aren't getting giddy because they've been told time and again by the club that we can attract the best players but obviously can't. Couple that with the fact that our last few signings havent set the world alight, you can see why people are frustrated.

You ask when have United purchased top talent in a window. That's not the point. The question is "When have United lacked this much world class talent in their squad?" Not that much over the last twenty years. It would seem that the club have had ample amount of time to address this but haven't (re: midfield).

As for your club the stick that you get is only amplified by the fact you didn't win the league last year WITH a world class player and have let him go this season. And even though you've tried a few times to sign some quality replacements you've failed. United fans know all too well what changes must take place with how the team plays and the results you get once a world class player leaves (Valencia for Ronaldo).

You're right about Bayern and Barcelona not having to spend. But the players that they got from their youth setup were comparable to our class of 92, in the sense that they had extremely talented youngsters that had the potential, reached the potential and in the process saved them millions in spending big. But let's bit forget Ribery, Robben, and other top talent they supported these youngsters with. Where is United's alternative to this setup right now?

You can add Chelsea to that list of distorting perceptions on the game. Does spending huge amounts of money seem to work? Sadly, yes. Eventually it seems it does get you a trophy but at the cost of your club's soul and identity.

Now onto Rojo. The fear that he might be only as good at the talent we already have and not someone that can steady the ship (his poor disciplinary record might support this) and discussions on here and other outlets that he lacks positional awareness and concentration. These are things that our own young defenders already suffer from. Essentially, there is a hole in the defence left by our last captain, a leader. Will there be another leader in that defence this season?

Finally, I won't condemn fans for being upset. This level of failure over the last year, on the field and off, is unique for us all. Of course they will panic. Especially when key parts of the team aren't being addressed correctly.

 

[Loublaze]

It also happened when the unknown bebe, diouf, obertan,etc were signed.

None of these players were even internationals at the time of us signing them. Rojo was in the world cup 11 team. Vidic was a rock for club and country and Evra was captain of Monaco.

 

[MJJ]

No its not.

Evra was the part of a team which reached CL final and Vida was part of a Serbian defense which were quite awesome.

Argentina had one of the meanest defenses in the tournament and had the joint highest clean sheets in the World Cup. Messi was their man but Messi wasn't the reason why their defense was good.

Yeah I guess the fact they didnt concede a goal in the KO stages till the final didnt have anything with them reaching the final..

And who exactly did they play in the KO stages? Or is that not relevant?

No its not.

Evra was the part of a team which reached CL final and Vida was part of a Serbian defense which were quite awesome.

Argentina had one of the meanest defenses in the tournament and had the joint highest clean sheets in the World Cup. Messi was their man but Messi wasn't the reason why their defense was good.

And that makes it okay to compare them to rojo who has done basically nothing? You cant blame people for having doubts about the signing and say if it worked out for those two it will for Roo as well.

Ashley young was a key part of a team which reached the WC in style.

Well since you compared Rojo with Bebe etc..everything else seems like a sane comparison.

I did, where?

 

[Bojan11]

Its as valid a comparison as the one with vidic,evra.

Ashley young had international recognition as well, and argentina defense wasnt the reason why they made it to the WC final.

Yes, it was. They conceded four goals in the World Cup and two of them were in a dead rubber for them against Nigeria.

During the knockout phase they only conceded one goal and that was in the final. So ridiculous to say their defence wasn't the reason they made the final.

 

[mariachi-19]

Bayern recent first team signings and the signings who help them dominate europe.

Lewandowski
Gotze
Martinez
Alcantara
Ribery
Neuer
Dante
Manzudic


Other than the last two, all were "names" as you termed them. Skinting on players is never going to get you to the top of europe unless you have an exceptional youth system.

You mean three players that are yet to win the CL with Bayern, and one whose only just signed. On top of that Gotze and Alcantara have hardly had the chance to make any impact with consistent injury issues.

Meawhile you actually look at the players that made Bayern successful, Muller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Alaba, Badstuber, Kross are all home grown. Naturally you can then look at Ribery (was purchased in 2008...) Robben (Got in a Madrid fire sale for silly cheap money) Rafinha (5 million) Neuer (was always happening) Dante (again cheap money).

So in other words, no you don't have to go and spend stupid fecking money on signings. Apart from Gomez, Ribery, Neuer and Martinez, the rest of the team that actually made them one of the top teams in europe was rather inexpensive and the most expensive of those four is now gone.

 

[sincher]

My concern with Rojo is mostly the type of player he is. It might depend on where he ends up playing. If I think of him as providing an alternative to Shaw on the left I am actually pretty cool with the signing. When I think of him as a central defender I am struggling to see it... I get that he would probably suit 3 at the back, but I suppose I just think the 3 at the back thing is set to fail... It is a lot to ask to expect a set of defenders who need to bed into the team to completely change system as well... might do them good in the long run but have some concerns for the next few months.

 

[MJJ]

Half of these players weren't crucial to their success last season. What exactly are you trying to prove? Bayern have a healthy group of home grown players who have come through their youth squads. What about barca's dominance how many of those players were home grown compared to big money signings?

That bayern are a side who go after "names"! and not just signings like rojo as pickled seems to suggest?

 

[DWelbz19]

Actually that's Smalling...

Why did you include Jones' name in brackets? He wasn't even in the conversation nor was his name in my post. Odd.

 

[entropy]

That bayern are a side who go after "names"! and not just signings like rojo as pickled seems to suggest?

Lets ignore the part about Barca then, shall we? great*two thumbs up*

 

[MJJ]

You mean three players that are yet to win the CL with Bayern, and one whose only just signed. On top of that Gotze and Alcantara have hardly had the chance to make any impact with consistent injury issues.

Meawhile you actually look at the players that made Bayern successful, Muller, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Alaba, Badstuber, Kross are all home grown. Naturally you can then look at Ribery (was purchased in 2008...) Robben (Got in a Madrid fire sale for silly cheap money) Rafinha (5 million) Neuer (was always happening) Dante (again cheap money).

So in other words, no you don't have to go and spend stupid fecking money on signings. Apart from Gomez, Ribery, Neuer and Martinez, the rest of the team that actually made them one of the top teams in europe was rather inexpensive and the most expensive of those four is now gone.

That bayern are a side who go after "names"! and not just signings like rojo as pickled seems to suggest?

...

 

[Mali_Zeus]

And who exactly did they play in the KO stages? Or is that not relevant?



And that makes it okay to compare them to rojo who has done basically nothing? You cant blame people for having doubts about the signing and say if it worked out for those two it will for Roo as well.

Ashley young was a key part of a team which reached the WC in style.




I did, where?

My god, Rojo did nothing? So he just stood there?

It is relevant who they played to you. What are you saying, they head weak oponnents so it doesnt matter if they didnt concede a goal.

Ashley Young was a key part of a team which reached the WC in style, yet Rojo did nothing while Argentina reached the WC final..

Can't believe what I'm reading.

You're twisting things just to suit you.

 

[sincher]

Bayern are in an unusual position though. They are by a long distance the most favoured club in Germany and also very close to the national team. This means they get most of the best German players and sets them at an immediate advantage. In England the talent pool is in any case not as strong and it is divided between clubs, creating a real premium on best talent - also the TV deal means that clubs like Everton are not strapped for cash so there is no real reason why they should sell the likes of Stones or Barkley. Once in that dominant position domestically, and with decent talent coming through the academy as well, they are set fair for pulling in additional players from around Europe to supplement what they have.

In short, when we were at our best, it was largely because we had the talent coming through the system locally and that enabled us to stay at the top and get other players that complement this. Without that we would be unlikely to get back to where we were, because we would simply be competing with Chelsea, City, PSG, Real, Barca, Bayern for the same set of players.

The long term answer for United is to get the best kids and play them... and the most concerning aspect of things in recent years is that unlike in the 80s we have actually managed to let some players who we had go... for whatever reason. The team could use Pique and Pogba right now.

 

[MJJ]

Lets ignore the part about Barca then, shall we? great*two thumbs up*

My bad, you are totally right. Lets start counting on our youth system producing all time greats like messi,xavi,iniesta and the world's best like puyol,buscuits and not sign anyone at all from this point on.

 

[Maajid]

ScoutNation's video of Rojo.

 

[MJJ]

My god, Rojo did nothing? So he just stood there?

It is relevant who they played to you. What are you saying, they head weak oponnents so it doesnt matter if they didnt concede a goal.

Ashley Young was a key part of a team which reached the WC in style, yet Rojo did nothing while Argentina reached the WC final..

Can't believe what I'm reading.

You're twisting things just to suit you.

• You dont read sarcasm well(ashley young)
  
• Duh. Thats how you judge the level of a player.

 

[sincher]

Argentina conceded 4 goals in 7 matches and yet defense wasn't the reason why they made into WC final. People are ridiculous here.

But the leaders in that defence were Garay, Zabaleta and Mascherano, and they defended as a team. Fernandez is about to go to Swansea, and Demichelis is well past his best. They defended well for sure and Rojo deserves credit for being a part of that, but it doesn't automatically make him a good choice for us.

 

[FromTheBench]

That bayern are a side who go after "names"! and not just signings like rojo as pickled seems to suggest?

If some of those are names then so is Shaw and Herrera even.

Every single signing cannot be marquee. Especially defenders are generally underwhelming signings for most clubs most of the time.

 

[entropy]

My bad, you are totally right. Lets start counting on our youth system producing all time greats like messi,xavi,iniesta and the world's best like puyol,buscuits and not sign anyone at all from this point on.

lets not get distracted here, stay focussed. Please show me where Barca have spent shitloads of cash for foreign talent that has enabled them to win title after title during the last few years.

 

[MJJ]

If some of those are names then so is Shaw and Herrera even.

Every single signing cannot be marquee. Especially defenders are generally underwhelming signings for most clubs most of the time.

Shaw is yes. Not sure about herrera.

 

[Loublaze]

• You dont read sarcasm well(ashley young)
  
• Duh. Thats how you judge the level of a player.

May I ask a question here? Who would be your ideal CB acquisition , since Rojo is just another underwhelming signing?

 

[MJJ]

lets not get distracted here, stay focussed. Please show me where Barca have spent shitloads of cash for foreign talent that has enabled them to win title after title during the last few years.

Let me dumb it down for you.

Barca.are.an.exception.Having.youth.like.that.coming.through.your.system.is.not.the.norm.

Even with that they have signed neymar, suarez, that ukrainian defender, henry, etoo,etc in the recent past for big money.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Fans aren't getting giddy because they've been told time and again by the club that we can attract the best players but obviously can't. Couple that with the fact that our last few signings havent set the world alight, you can see why people are frustrated.

You ask when have United purchased top talent in a window. That's not the point. The question is "When have United lacked this much world class talent in their squad?" Not that much over the last twenty years. It would seem that the club have had ample amount of time to address this but haven't (re: midfield).

As for your club the stick that you get is only amplified by the fact you didn't win the league last year WITH a world class player and have let him go this season. And even though you've tried a few times to sign some quality replacements you've failed. United fans know all too well what changes must take place with how the team plays and the results you get once a world class player leaves (Valencia for Ronaldo).

You're right about Bayern and Barcelona not having to spend. But the players that they got from their youth setup were comparable to our class of 92, in the sense that they had extremely talented youngsters that had the potential, reached the potential and in the process saved them millions in spending big. But let's bit forget Ribery, Robben, and other top talent they supported these youngsters with. Where is United's alternative to this setup right now?

You can add Chelsea to that list of distorting perceptions on the game. Does spending huge amounts of money seem to work? Sadly, yes. Eventually it seems it does get you a trophy but at the cost of your club's soul and identity.

Now onto Rojo. The fear that he might be only as good at the talent we already have and not someone that can steady the ship (his poor disciplinary record might support this) and discussions on here and other outlets that he lacks positional awareness and concentration. These are things that our own young defenders already suffer from. Essentially, there is a hole in the defence left by our last captain, a leader. Will there be another leader in that defence this season?

Finally, I won't condemn fans for being upset. This level of failure over the last year, on the field and off, is unique for us all. Of course they will panic. Especially when key parts of the team aren't being addressed correctly.

No it isn't.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

• You dont read sarcasm well(ashley young)
  
• Duh. Thats how you judge the level of a player.

Its hard to have a conversation with you.
Argentina conceded 4 goals in 7 games, yet Rojo isnt a good player cause they had weak oponnents.
Whatever.

 

[MJJ]

May I ask a question here? Who would be your ideal CB acquisition , since Rojo is just another underwhelming signing?

Benatia, Hummels(v.unlikely), marquinhos(possible) would make more of an immediate impact.

 

[KM]

But the leaders in that defence were Garay, Zabaleta and Mascherano, and they defended as a team. Fernandez is about to go to Swansea, and Demichelis is well past his best. They defended well for sure and Rojo deserves credit for being a part of that, but it doesn't automatically make him a good choice for us.

No it doesn't but it also doesn't make him an unknown or an average player like some are trying to portray him.

Apart from Sly I'm willing to bet that no one saw him before the WC and yet the majority have decided that he's average inspite of Sly's opinion.

 

[sincher]

Thiago had a higher status than either Shaw or Herrera when he was bought.

I do agree with the latter point... but it also works the other way. Not every signing can be a punt... and signing too many players that are punts stops your young players coming through and gives you a problem moving those on that don't work out. We have too many 'decent' players who have not kicked on at the moment and a problem moving them on. Anderson, Nani, Young, Valencia, Kagawa, Zaha, Hernandez, Fellaini. I am not saying we need to get rid of all of these and some might still make a breakthrough but our success rate is not looking fantastic at the moment. Partly unfortunate - we very narrowly missed out on Bale and Ramsey for example who would have been excellent punts.

 

[MJJ]

Its hard to have a conversation with you.
Argentina conceded 4 goals in 7 games, yet Rojo isnt a good player cause they had weak oponnents.
Whatever.

Okay, lets ignore the level of opponents while judging the quality of a player. Who is dominating league 1? Am sure he will be a hit here as well.

 

[Jaap]

I hope Rojo can prove his doubters, me included, wrong.

 

[Sultan]

So we've been after him since the world cup, but only decided to make a bid 2 weeks before the end of the window after the season had already started instead of getting it done early so we can have him bed in during pre season? Smart.

United had other targets prioritised (Vermaelen). I would think United only really went after Rojo after that deal died.

 

[mariachi-19]

...

You're a muppet.

My bad, you are totally right. Lets start counting on our youth system producing all time greats like messi,xavi,iniesta and the world's best like puyol,buscuits and not sign anyone at all from this point on.

Well when you look at our youth system or development team specifically...

Januzjai, Pogba, Ronaldo, Rafael, Welbeck, Evans, Piquet, Rossi over the past 10 years, our system doesn't look so bad hey...

And before I get some bullshit about Ronaldo, he was nothing more than a player with potential when he signed with us. Nothing like Gotze or Rooney etc. This is a player that was developed by Manchester United.

So effectively, you look at the 10 year period in which Xavi first broke through and all the rest that followed along, and compare that with Ronaldo in 2003 and the 10 years that followed from that, I'd say our academies have both been excellent in churning out youth talent.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Okay, lets ignore the level of opponents while judging the quality of a player. Who is dominating league 1? Am sure he will be a hit here as well.

Thiago Silva is dominating Ligue 1 for instance. Him and Benatia and Marquinhos, they all have weaker oponnents than in PL.

 

[FromTheBench]

Benatia, Hummels(v.unlikely), marquinhos(possible) would make more of an immediate impact.

We wanted a left footer CB to begin with, it clearly seems. And no Marquinhos won't make a more immediate impact in the English league even more so. He didn't even make a immediate impact in the French league that much and is more of a project.

Benatia i agree on but that's if he's available with Bayern's interest and we want another CB. He would have to play central of the 3.

 

[saivet]

Benatia, Hummels(v.unlikely), marquinhos(possible) would make more of an immediate impact.

I guess the problem is that by seemingly refining our target to a left footed CB has meant those that fit the bill are significantly below this level as also show by us targeting Vermaelen. I'd argue that it's a problem in itself but if we're going this way then we're limiting ourselves to someone like Rojo. Whether it proves to be a good move, who knows.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

United had other targets prioritised (Vermaelen). I would think United only really went after Rojo after that deal died.

The player has said that United were talking to his representatives straight after the world cup. So as people have said we have no idea who they are talking to.

 

[MDFC Manager]

But the leaders in that defence were Garay, Zabaleta and Mascherano, and they defended as a team. Fernandez is about to go to Swansea, and Demichelis is well past his best. They defended well for sure and Rojo deserves credit for being a part of that, but it doesn't automatically make him a good choice for us.

You're right, but you also have to consider that Rojo wasn't playing in his preferred position either.

 

[mariachi-19]

United had other targets prioritised (Vermaelen). I would think United only really went after Rojo after that deal died.

I think we were after both to be frank. Primarily Vermaelen as the leading CB and Rojo as another CB but could cover in LB if necessary. Part of me is still expecting another center back and midfielder but I think that as of now, with blacket showing promise we might not need another center back.

 

[sincher]

No it doesn't but it also doesn't make him an unknown or an average player like some are trying to portray him.

Apart from Sly I'm willing to bet that no one saw him before the WC and yet the majority have decided that he's average inspite of Sly's opinion.

From my POV, I am only judging him directly on the world cup, which straight away I would admit does not say that much about him. Reports about his career up to that point are pretty variable and his disciplinary record is poor.

I see it this way:

- He is more than decent technically for a defender
- He is strong and good in the air
- He lacks composure and positional sense
- He makes rash challenges
- He is clearly able to play on the left to a reasonable level
- He is the right age
- When I was watching the world cup I distinctly thought that he looked like something of a filler player for a problem position and thought 'Might be a player, not ready yet'

Something of a rough diamond by the looks of him. I think Van Gaal thinks he can polish him, let's hope he's right... but I am not sure a rough diamond is what we need in central defence.
From the point of view of needing an alternative to Shaw I think it's reasonable though especially since there aren't loads of good left backs out there.