What did he do with the ball after that trick?
Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Shot and scored a sensational goal. They thought the spin was better though
How in God's name did you take my post as comparing Carroll and Fellaini, given that my post explicitly said that I wasn't?
The Carroll example was used to dispel the absurd view that merely because he was bought by a top club for a big fee, and that clubs know more about player purchasing than fans, that the latter can't have an opinion if it isn't a glowing tribute.
I still think you're wrong about the squad player business, and he was bought to be a key part of our team, but time will tell on that.
On the fee, that's one way of looking at it, but it massively ignores transfer inflation. Given that the 4 more expensive players were bought (off the top of my head) 5, 9, 11 and 12 years ago, this is meaningless. If you look at it in real terms, he's probably only about our 20th most expensive player this century!
I do think the price is was too high - given that we know we could have got him for £4m less that's indisputable, and £20-£24 is probably about his "worth", but I don't think of him as one of our record signings... there were at least 10 more expensive signings made just this summer!
Going on from the above point, this is a pipe dream. We looked at one of few such players, and it was clear that he'd cost over £40m. Better than Carrick for £27.5m? Get real, this isn't 2003.
Will you just sling your hook if every time somebody argues against what you're saying you're going to come out with this shit?
I thought you were talking about when he went to Liverpool?
Seriously though, there may well be an element of truth in the "Torres - £15m" clause defence that scousers cling on to, in which case it isn't really relevant.
Read Ramshock's posts. He seriously suggests that his afro is the reason for some of us questioning his credentials as a United player. I mean, seriously.
I'm all for arguing against people, but not against those kind of arguments.
So make a counter-argument, don't just come back with this "boo-hoo we're not allowed out opinions" crap. It's a forum, you'll find some other people's opinions stupid and annoying, that's how it works.
It was still a monumental piece of stupidity though. Agreeing to such a clause hints at serious mental problems on John W. Henry's part.
He's an alternative for neither, totally different infact. Not sure why he has to be compared to what we already have when it seems obvious the reason we've bought him is that he gives us another option in the middle.
he's a guaranteed first team player here which makes him an alternative to nobody.
He almost certainly takes Cleverley's place in the side though so comparisons with him are valid: we need to look at what he brings compared to Cleverley who occupied that position most frequently out of all our players.
I'm guessing he is being compared to them because he will play instead of them. As I said before you can only play with 11 players and he isn't going to play in the back 5 or front 4, therefore logic would suggest he's one of the middle 2.
If Phil Jones cost 20 and Ashley Young cost 17 or 18, then you aren't going to get a player better than Carrick for 23.5.
I'm confused by this. He's a different type of player to Carrick and Cleverley. You see this though right?
Jones - 16m
Come on now, Barry and Parker were free this summer!
Carroll was part of an obvious spending spree of utter desperation, it was a gamble of massive proportions as the lad was utterly unproven in the division. While no player is a cert to succeed, it's not an Andy Carroll situation.
All your talk of facts and you get his price wrong, he cost 23.5 million.
The money skews things to whichever side you favour, he may be our 5th most expensive signing, but he's only cost a quarter of the world transfer record, and we really needed a midfielder. He's young too.
The fact you quote no other clubs being interested is just another step towards the transfers being a bigger sport than football.
I think a lot of this thread and the negativity is down to naive prejudices and preconceptions. Fellaini is seen as an unglamourous lump and like Carrick it will take years for people to accept his quality no matter what he does. He's not small enough or signed from a glamourous enough rival. See Kagawa for the opposite, he has done very little during his time on the pitch in a United jersey to cement a first team place and the fanbois are distraught, one poster said he was dismayed at how we are ruining the player.
I've seen figures from 16 to 20, but the point stands. He was inexperienced and can't command a 'first XI' team place 2 years later.
Can I ask why you're so convinced it was 23.5m moses?
That's what the club said it was? And the 4m in the balance was Fellaini losing his loyalty fee which is what made the deal worth 27.5 m to Everton?
He's also got a massive, massive upside and potential for future development. I'd say most people would say £16 million is a fair gamble for a man of Jones's potential. I'm not that convinced about the £27,5 million (which Everton has confirmed as a fee, I might add) for Fellaini's current and future qualities.
As for a better player than Carrick, perhaps that's worded somewhat badly. I'd want someone who'll improve our first XI similarly to what Carrick did when we signed him, is perhaps more correct. For all I know Fellaini might be that player, I'm just not convinced about his quality. For me, he's badly, badly overpriced and will struggle to live up to that price tag, I hope I'm wrong though.
Everton have denied this and reiterated that United paid them the full £27,5 million.
In the first paragraph you assert that:
Only to claim in the second that:
You were right the second time; Fellaini excels at controlling anything directed at him.
As for progressive passing:
He's certainly not a slow passer; he rarely takes more than two or three quick touches of the ball in midfield before moving it on to a teammate - without doubt, keeping the ball moving is one of Fellaini's strengths.
Consider the Norwich game from the opening day of the new season, Felliani in the DMC role:
[YouTube]Lbrrk9vbU_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YouTube]
He's constantly moving the ball forward, bringing his teammates into play. The linchpin of the transitional phase between defence and attack, either winning of taking the ball into feet and quickly moving it to a teammate; this is what Fellaini excels at. It's what United have been missing. Bags of creativity isn't necessarily in the DMC role, though he clearly has a good eye for the forward pass when given freedom to look for it.
Fellaini again playing DMC against Arsenal this time with much more emphasis on defensive responsibility and keeping possession:
[YouTube]fzgMwbP18CQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YouTube]
He's under much more pressure than in the Norwich game above; he's toughing it out, winning and receiving the ball and sticking to the same simple, quick passing technique which he demonstrated above only this time with a mind on keeping possession which means fewer risky through-balls. Nevertheless I count around forty passes in the video above with half of those having a strong emphasis on forward movement. He tackles and harasses the opponent on the ball and upon winning it he quickly gets it moving, again, one/two touch football, leaving the key pass here to those around him.
As I mentioned in the previous post, a player like this playing in this role will grant newfound freedom to the more creative players around him. Rooney, Nani, Kagawa, RvP, Anderson, Giggs, Rafael etc. these players will thrive around Fellaini doing the lion's share donkey-work in the middle of the pitch; he wasn't really afforded the luxury of such a visionary supporting cast at Everton and was nevertheless very effective. From where do you get the impression that a DMC has to be blessed with exceeding creativity and a Scholeslike range of passing? It's just not that case.
At no cost.
Since losing Fletcher our midfield has been far too lightweight; even with Carrick at his best he can only do so much and even lower table teams have breezed past us like so many knives through butter. We rely too heavily on our back line to break down opposition forward play and we had a good reminder last season before Vidic's return from lnjury exactly how perilous such last-ditch defending can be and how porous and susceptible to direct play it makes us.
Creativity hasn't been an issue for us; the issue has been in being too lightweight in the middle of the pitch meaning opportunities for creative play have been limited with us being overrun there. Opportunities for creativity in the Premier League have to be fought for and through Fellaini we now have the ability to do so.
The comparisons to what's going on in the Kagawa thread are both relevant and hilarious.
It still sickens me Fergie throw away £18m on Young, awful awful signing.
I still don't see 16m 2 years ago for Jones who can't still can't command a first team place and 23.5m for Fellaini who will add to the first team immediately as that obviously different, in fact the latter seems better value if he gets into the first team immediately?
There are plenty of sources to say otherwise, you are just believing any narrative that supports you not liking the player. I'd say this is the first time you believe EFCs word as gospel with so many contrary reports about.
I know that you're a big fan of Fellaini, and you make a good case for him. As for the close control bit - he's excellent at controlling passes played into him at height, along the floor he's a bit slow and cumbersome.
I just don't agree that he's a progressive passer or would add something to that part of the game. We've got as good or better passers in the side already. Cleverley's got a better touch and is quicker on the ball, for instance.
You might have a point when it comes to him freeing up the players around him to do their thing. As for him playing as a DM, I can't see us benching Carrick and letting him do that role, and I'm not too sure we'll play two holding midfielders, that seems a bit cautious for United, even if Moyes did it at Everton. So I imagine he's bought as a first choice player to play alongside Carrick in most important matches, not as a backup/replacement.
In the DM role, he's inferior to Carrick in most if not every way. Do you agree with this?
In the CM role, slightly more adventurous, he won't fit in as well and won't give us the things I feel we're lacking in midfield.
That's where my concern, if we can call adding to our midfield a concern in any way, comes from. It's no biggie and I might very well be proven wrong, but I don't buy entirely into the logic of him being our sole signing for that price.
He doesn't have to make a counter argument, it's a bullshit claim that anyone doesn't like Fellaini because of his Afro or because he isn't Spanish. He has expressed multiple times why he doesn't think Fellaini is/will be a good signing for us and whether you agree with the reasoning or not none of it involved his hair or nationality. People coming out with that bollocks are actually derailing the thread.
Everton stated it on their official website, not through press briefings - ergo I'd say it's a pretty verified claim.
OK, to be honest it doesn't really bother me. The club is a multi multi million pound organisation with many millions in the both credit and debit columns, so this tiny amount of the clubs budget shouldn't really matter. The lad will get into our first team and hopefully stop our midfield being overrun the way it has been in recent years. As a football fan and with very little interest in accountancy this is what I make my decision that he is a good addition on.
In general I agree that for me as an individual the price means feck all. If Moyes thinks a player's worth it, so be it.
What bothers me about this particular bit of business is that we were clearly prepared to bring in other types of midfielders, who I believe were of more importance than bringing in Fellaini, for similar amounts - but baulked at the price. Herrera's release clause was three or four million more than Fellaini's eventual price, for example.
But for all I know it could turn out Fellaini IS the midfielder we've waited for and becomes a hero at OT. Nothing would please me more, especially as it would be a kick in the nuts for all the ABU's and Moyes-naysayers.
If you're asking me to realistically predict his United career based on what I've seen of Fellaini at Everton though - I'd say decent player who won't ever live up to his price tag. But that's a very, very unprecise science, predicting footballer's impact at new clubs.
Very few players these days are great value, since Evra and Vidic we have almost always overpaid in my opinion. In fact from ticket prices to agents fees it's a big ugly bloated cesspit, so I tend to ignore it.
As for the other signings falling through, they have all been explained to death and nothing to do with Fellaini? He is not Cesc, by a long shot, but arguably more what we were lacking than Cesc. I'd take Cesc every day but he may not have stopped our vulnerability to being overrun when we don't have the ball, and we are OK when we do have the ball, as the goals tally last year proved, which we scored at a canter in most cases.
Can't wait to see this lad get started. I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.
Yeah in the end I was pleased we managed to even bring in a midfielder. I guess it's somewhat frustrating, our lack of midfield signings, then our apparent wish to sign a world class CM, and then ending up with a player from Moyes's former club who I'm personally not convinced of as a CM. Its perhaps not entirely fair on Fellaini, but I fear he'll taste some of the frustration if he doesn't hit the ground running.
Here's to a brace vs Palace!
Herrera is 24, Fellaini is 25, nearly 26 so there is very little between them age wise. Fellaini is "proven in the Premier League" while there is a higher element of risk of Herrera not adapting to the Premier League. Also, it would appear that Fellaini forfeited his loyalty bonus of £4m to make the move happen and it was actually £23.5 (his release clause fee) + £4m to take it to £27.5m so our actual out going and risk was just £23.5m. That's a £6.5m difference for a start, before we have to pay some sort of tax which could easily start to take it to above £10m difference.
I think the main thing being lost in the Herrera "embarrassment" is that we, quiet rightly, had an idea of how much we thought he was worth. Before we were in for him I hadn't seen his name mentioned once by the transfer muppets, then when we decide not to make him our record signing or there abouts and a £30m+ player, everyone is crying that we are missing out on an amazing talent and we are stupid not to pay "three or four million more for him". I think some people need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
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