Mass shooting at Church in US

Nobby style said:
Except that "southern pride" argument could be as valid as nazi flags for "German Pride" in German cities being flown with large jewish populations. What a bunch of crap. I´m so sick of the acceptance of this reasoning.
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Yeah, I was exactly thinking the same thing. In Germany, there is a clear article in the legislation that outlaws several symbols completely, especially Nazi symbols (Criminal code, section 86a). The US really needs to put the same kind of legislation now when they should have done so after 1865 regarding that disgrace (the Confederate flag). People can shove that bit of "southern pride" where the sun doesn't shine as far as people are concerned.

Burn all the Dixie flags to the last one, I say.
 
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For all the liberal disappointment at Obama's ineffectuality (?)..If he ends up being the President that finally starts the ball rolling on both Health Care and Gun Reform, that'll be an impressive legacy, even if his personal acorns are small.
 
Kakeru said:
Yeah, I was exactly thinking the same thing. In Germany, there is a clear article in the legislation that outlaws several symbols completely, especially Nazi symbols (Criminal code, section 86a). The US really needs to put the same kind of legislation now when they should have done so after 1865 regarding that disgrace (the Confederate flag). People can shove that bit of "southern pride" where the sun doesn't shine as far as people are concerned.

Burn all the Dixie flags to the last one, I say.
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Yeah, kudos to the Germans. For their twenty or so tears of absolute madness, they´ve taken drastic measures to rid themselves of their Nazi past. In the US, you had this region with 200 years of moral madness, leading to a bloody, barbaric civil war, than over a hundred years more of apartheid, segregation, violent repression, institutionalised racism, voting repression etc etc, and they still want to proudly fly the confederate flag, and are permitted to, sticking the faces of African Americans in this shit on a daily basis. All with the generous support of the Republican party. It´s a big part of what identifies the Republican party.

Can you imagine what an African American must feel seeing the confederate flag at full mast (while the US and state flag are at half) over the state house in South Carolina? What kind of civilisation is this?
 
Nobby style said:
Can you imagine what an African American must feel seeing the confederate flag at full mast (while the US and state flag are at half) over the state house in South Carolina? What kind of civilisation is this?
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I would be extremely pissed off if I'm an African-American seeing that, and I'm sure there would be a number who would use that situation to justify absolute social disobedience against the SC government. Who could blame them to an extent anyway? It's very pathetic for a civilisation to maintain such symbols that were associated with the whole length of a country's darkest chapter in history.
 
The confederate flag is a bizarre thing. Now obviously anyone who has one is either racist or stupid but it's not just a slavery thing. It's a cultural thing. I've met people who've never left Michigan who have confederate flag license plates on their trucks. I've met black people with confederate flags too. Or people from West Virginia, a state created for the express purpose of not being in the confederacy.
 
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Eboue said:
The confederate flag is a bizarre thing. Now obviously anyone who has one is either racist or stupid but it's not just a slavery thing. It's a cultural thing. I've met people who've never left Michigan who have confederate flag license plates on their trucks. I've met black pepper with confederate flags too. Or people from West Virginia, a state created for the express purpose of not being in the confederacy.
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We had this convo in a Civil War thread recently, and I remember posting something very similar to what Wendel Peirce tweeted. Obviously it's cultural, but so is loads of shit. Culture is intangible, and easily seperated from embarassing associations if it needs to be (just look at Fanta & Hugo Boss. In many ways, they were the real winners of WWII....[Think about it, it makes sense....probably]) and Southern Americans aren't the only people who feel a bullish attachment to daft antiquated inanimate nonsense (we have a Queen!!) so the "outsiders can't understand" rhetoric isn't really applicable (not that you're saying that, but some will)

The only purpose of a flag is as a statement of identity to the wider world. It's a silly, coloured bit of cloth that generally looks like someone knocked it up in an hour on a beta version of MSPaint, that says "Hey World! This is what we want you to think of when you think of us!".. If your one makes everyone think you're a horrible dick, then it's failed at it's only purpose. Unless your purpose is to piss people off, since the only possible victory would be to convince the entire rest of the world to forget or ignore the horrible connotations - which isn't going to happen, or accept that everyone will think you're a racist cnut, but not care - which is pretty much the epitome of a pyrrhic victory.

So it's an unwinnable stand. And the only reason to make an unwinnable stand is bullish obstinance. Like the kind of people who refuse to stop saying Paki or half cast, despite it having no impact on their lives whatsoever, or inconveniencing them in the slightest, just because they don't like people telling them what to do. The fact that guy happens to be their black president only ads more depth to the amusing irony hole they're digging themselves.



I know you agree btw. but trivialities like that will never stop me from a good pointless waffle.
 
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Only time I've ever seen a confederate flag in real life was in the living room of a Polish neo-Nazi, along with a load of other very dodgy symbols from other countries. He also supported racist football teams from eastern Europe, listened to racist music from Scandanavia and read racist books from South Africa. Like a weird hate-filled cultural magpie.
 
sullydnl said:
Only time I've ever seen a confederate flag in real life was in the living room of a Polish neo-Nazi, along with a load of other very dodgy symbols from other countries. He also supported racist football teams from eastern Europe, listened to racist music from Scandanavia and read racist books from South Africa. Like a weird hate-filled cultural magpie.
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Why were you in his living room?
 
Eboue said:
The confederate flag is a bizarre thing. Now obviously anyone who has one is either racist or stupid but it's not just a slavery thing. It's a cultural thing. I've met people who've never left Michigan who have confederate flag license plates on their trucks. I've met black people with confederate flags too. Or people from West Virginia, a state created for the express purpose of not being in the confederacy.
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It is a weird thing. What most people call the confederate flag was actually never itself the flag of the CSA. Though several version of the CSA flag did incorporate it as part of their design. It was actually the battle flag of several units of the confederate army.

I am note sure it even existed prior to 1861.

All that being said, it should not be part of official state flags.

If you want to be dumb enough to put one on your house guess it is your right just don't be upset when people look down upon it or make assumptions about you being racist.
 
One thing I don't really understand is why the SC legislature took down their Gadsden Flags in the State House [yellow flag with a snake on it that says "Don't Tread on Me" from Revolutionary War made by South Carolinian]. They legally have to keep the Confederate Flag flying thanks to a 2000 law to get it off the State House itself, but they could have passed a resolution or short-term law to take it down or fly it at half-mast. If they want to assert that it's not a racist symbol, they could at least treat it like the other flags.

In general, I don't get the obsession of many of my Southern brethren with the Confederate/Rebel Flag. Whether they consider it a symbol of racism or not, it is undeniably a symbol of treason and traitors. No one celebrates Benedict Arnold in the US. Why should we celebrate a larger group of people who tried to break away, not for some noble purpose but to extend the life of slavery and a vicious economic system? How would they treat an American of German descent who wore Swastikas as a part of his "heritage?"

If SC wanted to fly a flag to remind it of its heritage, they should fly something from the Revolutionary War that has carried over since like the Gadsden or Moultrie flags. Both likely saw some action in the Civil War, but they aren't symbols of the Confederacy. They're symbols of the state and the US.
 
I think there is merit to @Mockney's assertion that extreme stubbornness is the only thing keeping that flag up. In more mundane matters I can say I've gone the extra mile to avoid giving someone the satisfaction of compelling me to do something. Same thing but a larger scale.

I've never had a strong opinion of the flag; I am bemused when I see it north of the Mason-Dixon line, and "states rights" is the most bullshitting, history whitewashing excuse I have ever heard. I don't care about it being used today, other than the fact that whoever is using it or supports it's use is racist, stupid, or a mean stubborn cnut. That said I do have 2 thoughts on it...

1. Why stop at this version of the flag? Yes, this flag has extra notoriety because beyond slavery and the Civil War, it is a symbol of that terrible nadir that blacks in America experienced between Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement. But throughout the south, memorials, named streets and statues to Confederate leaders and segregationists abound. If the desire is to wipe any romanticism of that period from the face of the earth, blowing up the bas relief on Stone Mountain should be next. Streets and schools should be renamed. Memorials banned. But that won't happen.

2. Do we limit this purge to southern anti heroes? Majority of the presidents pre Kennedy were cowards and closet racists.

3. Imagine how the Native Americans feel seeing the American flag. They would have every justification to demand the removal of the stats and stripes, given the long history of betrayal at the hands of the government, and their miserable conditions in reservations today.
 
And to be fair to the majority of people down there, ignoring the massive double whammy of slavery and Jim Crow, it is easy to romanticize your past. With all that other stuff it ain't that easy.
 
Doing something though would be better than doing nothing, sure there's loads of other things that can be done (with regards to names of generals etc). And the confederate flag is popular is white supremacy circles too. Of course I think that the bigger issues are addressing the problems right wing militia types and other hate groups pose. Along with other issues of race such as policing, prison, drug laws, gun control.

Much bigger issues. I don't think anybody expects things to magically get better with taking down a flag. Real change will require so much more. Absolutely zero changes will be made though, that's your tragedy.
 
adexkola said:
I think there is merit to @Mockney's assertion that extreme stubbornness is the only thing keeping that flag up. In more mundane matters I can say I've gone the extra mile to avoid giving someone the satisfaction of compelling me to do something. Same thing but a larger scale.

I've never had a strong opinion of the flag; I am bemused when I see it north of the Mason-Dixon line, and "states rights" is the most bullshitting, history whitewashing excuse I have ever heard. I don't care about it being used today, other than the fact that whoever is using it or supports it's use is racist, stupid, or a mean stubborn cnut. That said I do have 2 thoughts on it...

1. Why stop at this version of the flag? Yes, this flag has extra notoriety because beyond slavery and the Civil War, it is a symbol of that terrible nadir that blacks in America experienced between Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement. But throughout the south, memorials, named streets and statues to Confederate leaders and segregationists abound. If the desire is to wipe any romanticism of that period from the face of the earth, blowing up the bas relief on Stone Mountain should be next. Streets and schools should be renamed. Memorials banned. But that won't happen.

2. Do we limit this purge to southern anti heroes? Majority of the presidents pre Kennedy were cowards and closet racists.

3. Imagine how the Native Americans feel seeing the American flag. They would have every justification to demand the removal of the stats and stripes, given the long history of betrayal at the hands of the government, and their miserable conditions in reservations today.
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The flag is a bit of a special case because it became synonymous with white supremacist groups after the end of the Civil War. They might revere Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, or Nathan Bedford Forrest, but it's difficult to make them emblematic of racism in quite the way that the Confederate Flag does. If some group wanted to buy land and put the flag up there along with a memorial, I'd have no problem with that. I wouldn't agree with it, but it's their right to have it. I do have a problem with it flying on state property. [Stone Mountain is private, I think.]

I also think it would be ridiculous to attempt to whitewash history or to expurgate certain people because we find their beliefs or deeds objectionable by modern standards. There have been changes to dorms/buildings in NC to remove a certain former governor's name because he was a white supremacist, but he's also the same governor who nurtured public education in NC. I don't have a problem with his name being removed from those places because they are places of honor and he's an exceptional case. He wasn't your run of the mill racist for the time but someone who pushed for expanded anti-black policies and even worked to overthrow the government in Wilmington to suppress black people.

I think it's important to take into context the whole person rather than a single aspect. Street names, place names, and so on serve as a reminder for everyone, good and bad, of our history. A number of the military bases in Virginia and NC are named after Confederate generals (who were also Federal soldiers before). It's similar to there being places named after Cornwallis in NC/VA. Lots of conservatives want to hide the fact that America's history isn't sparkling clean, while it seems a number of liberals, particularly in academia, would like to remove the people who don't meet today's standards from the public sphere (better not to trigger anyone!). Our history, like everyone else's, is not perfect. Having a street named after Jefferson Davis (so many Jefferson Davis highways in the South) isn't really hurting anyone. Naming some official building after him would be much more problematic.
 
I imagine that comments like this have been repeated both in this thread as in "guncontrol" but I don´t see that Americans are particularly racist even in the South. The problem is if you give them or they can have access to all what means a gun.If other parts of the world had such a mix of races and had access to weapons would be a real mess . Crazy drug addicts are everywhere , but in other regions at least they have to quietly live with their hatred inside
 
carvajal said:
I imagine that comments like this have been repeated both in this thread as in "guncontrol" but I don´t see that Americans are particularly racist even in the South. The problem is if you give them or they can have access to all what means a gun.If other parts of the world had such a mix of races and had access to weapons would be a real mess . Crazy drug addicts are everywhere , but in other regions at least they have to quietly live with their hatred inside
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I think that the conversation has been moved on to racism and flags(Although valid)just shows how much faith people have in the gun laws changing.
 
The flag will be removed. Question iflagsl Mississippi do the brave :wenger: thing and remove it from their actual state flag before another racially motivated mass murder takes place in their state?

2000px-Flag_of_Mississippi.svg.png



Off topic but here is the Hawaiin flag.
hi_fi.gif
 
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Mrs Smoker said:
Maybe not all, but a lot. Nothing new with Apple, they are pretty big on censorship.

http://toucharcade.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-confederate-flag/

Steam then makes one of the banned games featured on the main page. A nice message.

Some NY Post guy wants the same fate for Gone With the Wind.
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http://putlocker.is/watch-south-park-tvshow-season-4-episode-7-online-free-putlocker.html
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You should check your computer for malware (unless that last bit was intentional).
 
Ubik said:
Fairly incontrovertible there. Horrifying quotes. Never even realised there was a debate to be had about the Confederacy's motivations to be honest.

And also, Obama is ridiculous.
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It's a result of a social and academic movement following the Civil War to change the narrative of the war to make the South seem more noble and less terrible. It deemphasized the influence of slavery on the secession, emphasized the "abuse" of the Southern way of life by the federal government as well as the North. It's generally referred to as the Lost Cause. It glorifies the leaders and motivations of the antebellum South while adding in other distractions that are not historically accurate. They demonized carpetbaggers and reconstruction (or any attempts to give black people a place in society). As a Southerner, the revisionism has been quite effective in the South.
 
I've heard better speeches from Obama. But with this sermon (cause it was a sermon) you could tell he was speaking to, and resonating, with his people. In the tradition of preaching in the black church, he "brought it home", so to speak.

Sir Matt said:
It's a result of a social and academic movement following the Civil War to change the narrative of the war to make the South seem more noble and less terrible. It deemphasized the influence of slavery on the secession, emphasized the "abuse" of the Southern way of life by the federal government as well as the North. It's generally referred to as the Lost Cause. It glorifies the leaders and motivations of the antebellum South while adding in other distractions that are not historically accurate. They demonized carpetbaggers and reconstruction (or any attempts to give black people a place in society). As a Southerner, the revisionism has been quite effective in the South.
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The revisionism left Lincoln's legacy in ruins around the turn of the 20th century. Grant and Sherman were depicted as murderous savages, compared to the noble yet outmatched Robert Lee. "States rights" is peddled by every other internet commentator, as if documented comments from leaders of the Confederacy and Jim Crow don't mention their absolute contempt for the black race, as late as the 1970s.

The question of how much of the Confederacy should be remembered publicly has been raised now. And there's no way to escape the fact that a significant proportion of the population down south revere relics of that era, for misguided or downright evil reasons. I expect that reverence to hang about for a little longer, regardless of the current political climate.
 
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This certainly all makes Gone With the Wind make a lot more sense.
 
adexkola said:
I've heard better speeches from Obama. But with this sermon (cause it was a sermon) you could tell he was speaking to, and resonating, with his people. In the tradition of preaching in the black church, he "brought it home", so to speak.
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Coincidentally, I went to a black lady's funeral yesterday, and it was my first time going to a black church service. It was definitely quite different from white churches. After about 1.5 hours, the preacher said he was going to bring it on home because he didn't want to keep us there too long. At a white funeral, with the exception of maybe Holiness and Catholics, the funeral would be over and the person in the ground by then. :lol:

The revisionism left Lincoln's legacy in ruins around the turn of the 20th century. Grant and Sherman were depicted as murderous savages, compared to the noble yet outmatched Robert Lee. "States rights" is peddled by every other internet commentator, as if documented comments from leaders of the Confederacy and Jim Crow don't mention their absolute contempt for the black race, as late as the 1970s.

The question of how much of the Confederacy should be remembered publicly has been raised now. And there's no way to escape the fact that a significant proportion of the population down south revere relics of that era, for misguided or downright evil reasons. I expect that reverence to hang about for a little longer, regardless of the current political climate.
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The revisionism makes it difficult to properly evaluate some of the key figures of the Civil War, like Lee, Jackson, or Forrest. They were very good tactical generals and Forrest made innovations that would live on. Lee is basically god to the Lost Cause and Jackson is the great "what if" for many of them. Forrest became a member of the Klan after the war when it had just started but then disowned them and worked for "reconciliation" with black people. Other figures, Pickett and Longstreet, are scapegoated as the reasons the South lost. So it's basically impossible to figure out how to treat them. It's not really beneficial to just assume they're all pure evil.
 
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