Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

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JPRouve said:
He took over a team that had 21 wins. So unless you think that the previous managers did something miraculous then Spurs were definitely a team near top 4. And I still need people to explain his EL and cups performances because unlike that single good CL run, people seem to not care about cups for some reason.
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They had 1 top 4 finish 3 years prior to him taking over mainly due to Bale carrying them through the season under Harry. Spurs had just come off the back of 2 managers in 2 season in AVB and Tim Sherwood when he took over and had finished 8th and 6th. They had beaten Moyes United team by a few points the year they came 6th which tells you how far off they was from challenging.

United went on from Moyes to spend a billion and go backwards meanwhile Poch on a much smaller budget got them challenging I think he did a great job.
 
romufc said:
This is how you push an agenda.

Talking about Kane like he was the backbone of the team, yet started 10 PL games the season before Poch came in, scoring 2 PL goals, but he was the backbone.

They finished 6th the season before he took over and went on top improve them per season.
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You do realize that I'm talking about the backbone of Pochettino's team? His is Pochettino.

You talk about agenda and can't even read.
 
JPRouve said:
You do realize that I'm talking about the backbone of Pochettino's team? His is Pochettino.

You talk about agenda and can't even read.
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You're talking about inheriting Kane is like saying the new manager coming in is inheriting Elagna. No one knows how good or bad the player will be.
 
romufc said:
You're talking about inheriting Kane is like saying the new manager coming in is inheriting Elagna. No one knows how good or bad the player will be.
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What is your point? Who says that we know the future?
 
JPRouve said:
What is your point? Who says that we know the future?
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Just because Kane was there at the time, does not mean anything. The manager has to get the best out the player.

Its a sign of a top quality manager that got Kane to the level he did, considering he played 10 PL games the season before. Its not like he was inheriting a player at 21 who has been doing well.
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
I think it’s simply PL experience. I remember a lot of media pundits going in hard on Poch when he first went to Southampton. At the end of the day as I have said before I really liked Poch but this whole *what he did at Spurs* thing is blown well out of proportion.

Redknapp had us on the up prior to his arrival and the vast majority of the players were already there. Most of Poch’s signings for us were utter shite and the time where he was playing the best football was with most of players he had inherited.
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I'd argue the best job Poch did was at Southampton, yeah he improved Spurs but he still had a reasonable squad with a good group of young players breaking through at the time he went there.

PL experience is massively over-hyped. Did people say the same about Pep or Klopp before the came to the PL? Quite simply we need the best manager who can come in and bring with them an ability to man-manage and influence the team to play positive, winning football. Poch couldn't win the league with that PSG squad last year and shouldn't get another big time job as I just don't think he's up to it.

I read half the squad are undecided about Ten Hag, which sums up the current culture at the club. Players shouting their mouths off without any repercussions. Simply wouldn't have happened with this regularity with strong leadership in the dressing room and throughout the club. The point being it doesn't matter who we bring in to manage the team unless the entire backroom right up to the board don't change how they operate.
 
Castia said:
They had 1 top 4 finish 3 years prior to him taking over mainly due to Bale carrying them through the season under Harry. Spurs had just come off the back of 2 managers in 2 season in AVB and Tim Sherwood when he took over and had finished 8th and 6th. They had beaten Moyes United team by a few points the year they came 6th which tells you how far off they was from challenging.

United went on from Moyes to spend a billion and go backwards meanwhile Poch on a much smaller budget got them challenging I think he did a great job.
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They finished 6th and 5th, Tottenham didn't finish further than 6 since 08-09. The season where they finished 4th with Bale, they amassed the same amount of points(69 points and 20 wins) as they did in 13-14(69 points and 21 wins) and had less wins. Even the first season where they finish third, it's with 70 points and 19 wins.

And Pochettino is in my opinion a better manager than Moyes but his job at Tottenham is exaggerated, particularly when you take into account what they did before, what they did during his first couple of season and his overall performances in cups. He did a good job but not a great one.
 
romufc said:
Just because Kane was there at the time, does not mean anything. The manager has to get the best out the player.

Its a sign of a top quality manager that got Kane to the level he did, considering he played 10 PL games the season before. Its not like he was inheriting a player at 21 who has been doing well.
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I never suggested that the manager didn't had to get the best out of players, I actually repeated many times that he did a good job on that front and was the perfect fit for them. But he still inherited these players which is important when people talk about spendings and budgets, your need for spendings is reduced when you inherit talents, that applies to Real Madrid for the better part of the last decade, their net spendings was low and even at some point in the negative, it doesn't mean much for the manager when he actually has quality players.

And frankly you are just arguing for the sake of it because the point was simply that he literally inherited the majority of his starting eleven, it's a fact and these players were winning roughly the same amount of games before he joined. He made them better but not drastically better.
 
romufc said:
Just because Kane was there at the time, does not mean anything. The manager has to get the best out the player.

Its a sign of a top quality manager that got Kane to the level he did, considering he played 10 PL games the season before. Its not like he was inheriting a player at 21 who has been doing well.
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Pochettino did not make Kane the player he is :lol:
 
Conor said:
Pochettino did not make Kane the player he is :lol:
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He's a massive reason and Kane has mentioned that a number of times.

He wasn't a regular when Poch took over he'd had a few mediocre loans the highest being a 7 goal season at Millwall in the Championship.

It took about 3 years of playing under Poch before people finally realised his goal tally wasn't a fluke remember that? everyone thinking he was a one season wonder.
 
Castia said:
He's a massive reason and Kane has mentioned that a number of times.

He wasn't a regular when Poch took over he'd had a few mediocre loans the highest being a 7 goal season at Millwall in the Championship.

It took about 3 years of playing under Poch before people finally realised his goal tally wasn't a fluke remember that? everyone thinking he was a one season wonder.
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Giving a player a chance does not equate to making a player, where would Pochettino be if Harry Kane wasn't scoring 30 a season for him? Having a player of that calibre in your team is pure luck for the most part, unless you buy them.

JPRouve said:
Can you imagine if you applied that both ways?
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Exactly, it makes very little sense.
 
Castia said:
He's a massive reason and Kane has mentioned that a number of times.

He wasn't a regular when Poch took over he'd had a few mediocre loans the highest being a 7 goal season at Millwall in the Championship.
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He was 20 years old nearly 21 when Pochettino took over. But the interesting context is that Kane pretty much hit the ground running, he was scoring in EL in August, scored during his first PL game, then didn't play much in the league in September. But from October-November 2014, he is starting in all competitions and scoring for fun.

So while it seems fair to give Pochettino's credit for using Kane, Kane was a difference maker from the start of 2014. If Pochettino made him then it was incredibly quick.
 
JPRouve said:
They finished 6th and 5th, Tottenham didn't finish further than 6 since 08-09. The season where they finished 4th with Bale, they amassed the same amount of points(69 points and 20 wins) as they did in 13-14(69 points and 21 wins) and had less wins. Even the first season where they finish third, it's with 70 points and 19 wins.

And Pochettino is in my opinion a better manager than Moyes but his job at Tottenham is exaggerated, particularly when you take into account what they did before, what they did during his first couple of season and his overall performances in cups. He did a good job but not a great one.
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Spurs weren't the worse team in the league but the fact remains they had only been in the CL once before Poch, the teams he was beating into the top 4 had better squads and more finances. How many non billionaire owned clubs have managed to break England's top 4 in the last 20 years? Everton once?
 
Im with most of the fans in not wanting Poch, but each day that goes by makes me think Poch will be the one we go for
 
yamo123x said:
Im with most of the fans in not wanting Poch, but each day that goes by makes me think Poch will be the one we go for
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I get the same feeling.

If it were to be ten Hag, I feel like that decision would have already been made and common knowledge, Ajax are realistic about him leaving. The longer it runs, the more I feel like since December we've simply been waiting for Pochettino and playing up the ten Hag stuff a bit. Morata/Lukaku situation with managers.
 
romufc said:
Oh yes must have been a magic spell.
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Explain to me how a manager creates a 30 goal a season striker in a couple of months please. Full credit to Pochettino for playing him and he obviously is part of Kane's success, but Kane is a generational striker essentially, Pochettino was incredibly blessed to arrive at Spurs and have this guy just fall into his lap and go on a rampage for years.
 
Castia said:
Spurs weren't the worse team in the league but the fact remains they had only been in the CL once before Poch, the teams he was beating into the top 4 had better squads and more finances. How many non billionaire owned clubs have managed to break England's top 4 in the last 20 years? Everton once?
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Indeed they were one of the best teams in the league. And there is a context to that, we are not really going to pretend that three members of the top 3 were not rebuilding during that period of time Liverpool(who were generally below Spurs) and United left the top 4 before 2014 and Arsenal followed during Wenger last season and went deeper when he left.

Again Pochettino is a good coach but for some reason some of you refuse to use any sort of context or nuance, you all know what happened, you all know what Spurs were because you all watched it, you all have internet and can check facts but for some reason, the hyperboles around Pochettino are still repeated even if it makes no sense at all.

PS: Spurs are owned by a billionaire(Joe Lewis), he is the main shareholder of Enic group, he is wealthier than the Glazer Family.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
There’s a tiny part of me that wants Pochettino to come here and inevitably fail just to put this Amadaeus fellas Poch agenda to bed once and for all.
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It will be "The board didn't back him/ bought the wrong players and bought them for commercial reasons". "Players fault for not giving their all", "Everything about the club being outdated", etc.
 
Feels like there is a lot of positive press surrounding Poch to MUFC atm
 
anant said:
It will be "The board didn't back him/ bought the wrong players and bought them for commercial reasons". "Players fault for not giving their all", "Everything about the club being outdated", etc.
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Yep, it'll be the same apologist sentiment from ex players who backed him too - they'll find every excuse under the sun to absolve the blame off him. It'll be Ole all over again.
 
I don't think Pochettino would need that many excuses because I don't think that he would fail, which is actually a worry for me. Pochettino is good and stable enough to maintain United at a respectable level and the worry is how many seasons will we go without winning while also being "contenders".
 
Conor said:
Explain to me how a manager creates a 30 goal a season striker in a couple of months please. Full credit to Pochettino for playing him and he obviously is part of Kane's success, but Kane is a generational striker essentially, Pochettino was incredibly blessed to arrive at Spurs and have this guy just fall into his lap and go on a rampage for years.
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Creating an environment that allows talented players to showcase their abilities, through formations, tactics and the like.

No one has said Poch is a miracle worker and will make any player world class, you still need talent.

This talk about generational is all well and good but I have seen many generational players fail, they need managers to back them and let them express themselves.

Playing him is a massive part, not many managers will play young unproven strikers. The fact that he done that, gave Kane the confidence and went from strength to strength.

So, if all it takes is a manager to have talented players to fall on their lap, why haven't Manutd been successful? The players we have had are incredibly talented but the managers have failed because they haven't been good enough.

If it was only to do with player ability, teams wouldn't need managers.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't think Pochettino would need that many excuses because I don't think that he would fail, which is actually a worry for me. Pochettino is good and stable enough to maintain United at a respectable level and the worry is how many seasons will we go without winning while also being "contenders".
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Depends how you define success and failure relative to where we're at. If our goal is to be a consistent top 4 side to placate Glazeronomics, then yes I can see Poch potentially being a success. If we had any ambitions to compete with the top 2, then I don't see us going far with him.
 
anant said:
It will be "The board didn't back him/ bought the wrong players and bought them for commercial reasons". "Players fault for not giving their all", "Everything about the club being outdated", etc.
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So are you saying if Ten Hag is appointed and fails, you won't use the above excuses?
 
romufc said:
Creating an environment that allows talented players to showcase their abilities, through formations, tactics and the like.

No one has said Poch is a miracle worker and will make any player world class, you still need talent.

This talk about generational is all well and good but I have seen many generational players fail, they need managers to back them and let them express themselves.

Playing him is a massive part, not many managers will play young unproven strikers. The fact that he done that, gave Kane the confidence and went from strength to strength.

So, if all it takes is a manager to have talented players to fall on their lap, why haven't Manutd been successful? The players we have had are incredibly talented but the managers have failed because they haven't been good enough.

If it was only to do with player ability, teams wouldn't need managers.
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What generational players have you seen fail(aside from things like age), surely they aren't generational players if they fail? Kane is still scoring at the same rate as when he played for Pochettino, even in dysfunctional teams, I think it's pretty clear he's just an incredible striker. I have never said that Pochettino had no impact, but his impact is being overplayed, while at the same time lots of you seem to ignore the elephant in the room of the fact that Pochettino arrived at Spurs with Kane there for him, that is more than likely a once in a lifetime thing for the majority of managers. His time at Spurs may not have been so rosy if that hadn't happened, we all saw the likes of Soldado and Janssen.
 
Kaos said:
Depends how you define success and failure relative to where we're at. If our goal is to be a consistent top 4 side to placate Glazeronomics, then yes I can see Poch potentially being a success. If we had any ambitions to compete with the top 2, then I don't see us going far with him.
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In this context, I'm thinking about the kind of failure that requires excuses. If we are being honest, he failed at Spurs, he left them in a worse position than he got them and won nothing. But people will consider their decent performances as a success which is dubious but fair enough.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't think Pochettino would need that many excuses because I don't think that he would fail, which is actually a worry for me. Pochettino is good and stable enough to maintain United at a respectable level and the worry is how many seasons will we go without winning while also being "contenders".
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Think with United there's always the expectancy to make the step up. And we do have a huge budget that the manager is expected to be able to take that step. It happened with Ole. We had a respectable half season to start with, finished 3rd and then 2nd. Contended without contending. Comfortable top 4 finishes. Then we had a huge window.... And collapsed because we couldn't actually take that step. The heightened expectation meant that any drop in form was amplified and became a much bigger disaster. We really aren't a club that can be a steady top 4 fighting team for a long time. You look at Pochettino's first 3 years, and they were always on the up. 5th, 3rd, then 2nd with a couple of half decent title challenges. In 2017/18, they had a drop in level and were merely top 4 contenders and they finished 3rd. They were still happy. Here, after the first 3 years, if we had a "meh" 4th season and could only contend for top 4, it would in fact cause bigger problems within the squad and with the fans. There would be a lot more pressure, and so the equivalent 3rd place finish at United might be more like a 5th place finish. We just can't do steady top 4 here because the pressure means we either fully succeed at stepping up to be a real challenger, or we collapse and rebuild again.
 
JPRouve said:
Indeed they were one of the best teams in the league. And there is a context to that, we are not really going to pretend that three members of the top 3 were not rebuilding during that period of time Liverpool(who were generally below Spurs) and United left the top 4 before 2014 and Arsenal followed during Wenger last season and went deeper when he left.

Again Pochettino is a good coach but for some reason some of you refuse to use any sort of context or nuance, you all know what happened, you all know what Spurs were because you all watched it, you all have internet and can check facts but for some reason, the hyperboles around Pochettino are still repeated even if it makes no sense at all.

PS: Spurs are owned by a billionaire(Joe Lewis), he is the main shareholder of Enic group, he is wealthier than the Glazer Family.
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Best teams in the league that had only ever been in Europe once you dont seem to be taking that fact into account and acting like Spurs we're already a top side they were nowhere near even in the year they finished 5th and six before poch.
 
JPRouve said:
Well it's true the majority were already at the club under Redknapp but at no point did that poster suggest that Modric and Bale were. So why did you make it a Modric and Bale conversation when the other poster didn't suggest that?
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Maybe chill out a bit? It's just a chat about Poch.

The other poster said Poch inherited a team was already doing well. Just a simple point that he inherited that team minus Modric and Bale. Which is two pretty big holes to fill.
 
Castia said:
He's a massive reason and Kane has mentioned that a number of times.

He wasn't a regular when Poch took over he'd had a few mediocre loans the highest being a 7 goal season at Millwall in the Championship.

It took about 3 years of playing under Poch before people finally realised his goal tally wasn't a fluke remember that? everyone thinking he was a one season wonder.
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Of course he gets credit, but players will always give a lot of credit to the manager that gave them their break. Some players would realistically have reached the top regardless. Ronaldo for example, obviously Sir Alex had a big part to play in his career... But does anyone truly think Ronaldo would have been anything other than one of the best ever if he had been elsewhere?
 
Castia said:
Best teams in the league that had only ever been in Europe once you dont seem to be taking that fact into account and acting like Spurs we're already a top side they were nowhere near even in the year they finished 5th and six before poch.
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A team was on average 5th from 2008 to 2014 is in my opinion one of the best. Maybe I'm completely crazy but that's how I see things.
 
Marwood said:
Maybe chill out a bit? It's just a chat about Poch.

The other poster said Poch inherited a team was already doing well. Just a simple point that he inherited that team minus Modric and Bale. Which is two pretty big holes to fill.
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What did I say that made you wrote that? :lol:
 
JPRouve said:
A team was on average 5th from 2008 to 2014 is in my opinion one of the best. Maybe I'm completely crazy but that's how I see things.
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In that time they had AVB and Tim Sherwood as managers are you telling me they did a good job then?

In those seasons they beat the likes of Newcastle (2012) to 4th place then finished 5th a year later ahead of Everton i wouldn't call those sides top teams either

Remember when he took over City and Liverpool we're both on the rise they had been 2 dead clubs for years beforehand the top 4 had started to turn into the top 6 in those early Poch years.
 
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Conor said:
What generational players have you seen fail(aside from things like age), surely they aren't generational players if they fail? Kane is still scoring at the same rate as when he played for Pochettino, even in dysfunctional teams, I think it's pretty clear he's just an incredible striker. I have never said that Pochettino had no impact, but his impact is being overplayed, while at the same time lots of you seem to ignore the elephant in the room of the fact that Pochettino arrived at Spurs with Kane there for him, that is more than likely a once in a lifetime thing for the majority of managers. His time at Spurs may not have been so rosy if that hadn't happened, we all saw the likes of Soldado and Janssen.
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Well, I dont see why having young players is a stick against Poch but the same principle is not applied to ETH.

If Poch was lucky, so was Ten Hag to have a group of talented young players like De Ligt, De Jong that came through the academy.
 
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