Mauricio Pochettino: Win or Bust?

[SirHenryPercy]

I don't think so. This thread has turned into a discussion of Spurs status as a club. Signing superstars elevates this immensely. If you are thinking along the lines of 'we have Dier or whoever, we don't need Pogba' then you are seriously missing the point.

I absolutely guarantee you that in 5 years time, with increased revenue from your new stadium, your club will be more than happy to pay bigger fees for bigger names.

I'm genuinely not sure that you are right, for some managers it's the only way they can do it, meaning buying big name established players and putting them on the pitch to do the business. Other managers prefer other methods, Klopp for example didn't net spend anything at Liverpool this Summer, Poch is still in the black at Spurs, Wenger isn't a massive spender at Arsenal when compared to the funds he has available.

Some managers buy what they need to fit in and improve the system that they want to play, name and money isn't the primary concern, which it most certainly is for others.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Fair enough re. Bale. Other reports highlighting the granularity of the transfer contradict what Bale has said but he's more reliable then they are. Assuming of course he isn't just giving quotes on hindsight to appease fans.

I think ideally we'd only want to pay a massive amount if we deem the player to be worth it (from the performances and brand image views together). With us missing out on Champions League two years, it obviously meant we had to pay over the odds, but thats something Spurs would easily do themselves had they had the money to do so.. so I'm not sure what higher ground you think you're taking on the debate.

I don't think that's true either, Poch has continuously stated that he has had more money available, but it's not how he works, again Wenger is another prime example.

 

[Bilbo]

I doubt that, Levy hates to overpay, even the Sissoko deal which could be classed as over paying is set up more akin to a loan.

Pogba isn't worth £90m or anywhere near even in this inflated market. He's a good player no doubt but that money is way over the top, but Utd can afford to overspend so it's moot.

I don't even think we overpaid for him. 23 year old superstar. Commercially a potential cash cow. Keeps United looking like a huge club which generates fans and future income.

I've not even mentioned that he's a great player that will improve our team. We could get 5 great years oit of him and be almost sure of getting our money back

 

[roonster09]

I doubt that, Levy hates to overpay, even the Sissoko deal which could be classed as over paying is set up more akin to a loan.

Pogba isn't worth £90m or anywhere near even in this inflated market. He's a good player no doubt but that money is way over the top, but Utd can afford to overspend so it's moot.

Sissoko deal you are paying in installments just like any other normal deal. There is nothing special in it.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

I don't even think we overpaid for him. 23 year old superstar. Commercially a potential cash cow. Keeps United looking like a huge club which generates fans and future income.

I've not even mentioned that he's a great player that will improve our team. We could get 5 great years oit of him and be almost sure of getting our money back

Maybe we just have a different opinion on what a 'great' player looks like.

 

[Cascarino]

I don't even think we overpaid for him. 23 year old superstar. Commercially a potential cash cow. Keeps United looking like a huge club which generates fans and future income.

Pogba is a really good player, and for a club with United's resources imp he was worth getting. But without a doubt he isn't worth his price.

 

[Stacks]

Bale says hello. And that was before United started playing Thursday night football.

As for the rest, it's just a continuation of the "big money" obsession that has not served United well for the last 3 years. You get Pogba for £90m, we got Alli for £4m. You pay £30m for Schneiderlin, we get Dier for £5m. You pay £32m for Bailly, we get Alderweireld for £14m. You pay £32m for Shaw, we got Rose for £1m. And so on.

at the time we had Evra, one of the best LB in Europe. Bale was a child LB (17 years old). I believe we even told him he would be used as a "good prospect" for the future. Things have changed. We are building a young team so young players can go straight in 1st team now. We no longer have the Scholes, Giggs, Carricks of this world keeping youngsters out. Do you honestly believe you would beat us to signings today? We have even taken key players from you. If we want I am sure we could take Alli from you today and maybe even Pochettino in a few years. you buy well, its true but you also swim in different waters because you are a relatively unknown club internationally. Big players don't look in your direction as you haven't won anything of note, nor been competitive for decades. I am not tryin to mug it even if it appears so. I am just being frank.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Pogba is a really good player, and for a club with United's resources imp he was worth getting. But without a doubt he isn't worth his price.

Completely agree, when money is less of a consequence you can afford to pay over the market rate for a player who is 100% better than what you have.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

at the time we had Evra, one of the best LB in Europe. Bale was a child LB (17 years old). I believe we even told him he would be used as a "good prospect" for the future. Things have changed. We are building a young team so young players can go straight in 1st team now. We no longer have the Scholes, Giggs, Carricks of this world keeping youngsters out. Do you honestly believe you would beat us to signings today? We have even taken key players from you. If we want I am sure we could take Alli from you today and maybe even Pochettino in a few years. you buy well, its true but you also swim in different waters because you are a relatively unknown club internationally. Big players don't look in your direction as you haven't won anything of note, nor been competitive for decades. I am not tryin to mug it even if it appears so. I am just being frank.

It's not about how much you spend its about how well you spend it. We spent the Bale money poorly but since then we have spent well and gained more value for our spending than most PL clubs.

How much did your squad cost, circa £600m?
Spurs circa £200m

Wage bill Utd circa £220m?
Spurs circa £120m

And honestly you'd be hard pushed to find a Spurs fan that would swap our squad for yours, I'm sure you guys would say the same.

The point being there's little to choose between the teams or squads but we spend a fraction of what you do. It's not what you spend that counts but as long as you have a reasonable budget it's how well you spend it.

We also have a zero net spend over the last 5 years.

 

[Stacks]

It's not about how much you spend its about how well you spend it. We spent the Bale money poorly but since then we have spent well and gained more value for our spending than most PL clubs.

How much did your squad cost, circa £600m?
Spurs circa £200m

Wage bill Utd circa £220m?
Spurs circa £120m

And honestly you'd be hard pushed to find a Spurs fan that would swap our squad for yours, I'm sure you guys would say the same.

The point being there's little to choose between the teams or squads but we spend a fraction of what you do. It's not what you spend that counts but as long as you have a reasonable budget it's how well you spend it.

We also have a zero net spend over the last 5 years.

A Van Gaaled Spurs squad might look a bit different though. What would United look like under Poch system? hard to say. Our current side doesn't run or press so we making it easy for opponents for some reason. As individuals, none of your players are really proven on any big stage or even outside the premier league. The internationals have been poor in tournaments, and the ones who have played champions league have had no real impact in the past tournaments.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

A Van Gaaled Spurs squad might look a bit different though. What would United look like under Poch system? hard to say. Our current side doesn't run or press so we making it easy for opponents for some reason. As individuals, none of your players are really proven on any big stage or even outside the premier league. The internationals have been poor in tournaments, and the ones who have played champions league have had no real impact in the past tournaments.

And you are full of quality, yes?

 

[VP89]

I don't think that's true either, Poch has continuously stated that he has had more money available, but it's not how he works, again Wenger is another prime example.

I don't think Wenger has the funds tbh. No matter how much he says he does, the board have made it blatantly obvious that he cant compete with United/City/Chelsea in the market. He's said it himself too.

Poch is too early to decide on - he walked into Spurs after they spent shit loads of the Bale cash. He may be a purist in many ways, but its too much to suggest his targets in the transfer market wouldn't change if he had United's budget to work under. £30m for Sissoko shows he can too spend frivolously at times.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

I don't think Wenger has the funds tbh. No matter how much he says he does, the board have made it blatantly obvious that he cant compete with United/City/Chelsea in the market. He's said it himself too.

Poch is too early to decide on - he walked into Spurs after they spent shit loads of the Bale cash. He may be a purist in many ways, but its too much to suggest his targets in the transfer market wouldn't change if he had United's budget to work under. £30m for Sissoko shows he can too spend frivolously at times.

I definitely think Arsenal have a lot more money to spend, IMHO he chooses not to.

Sissoko is not a £30m player, anything like it, but we needed that type of player in our squad and the deal he got him on £6m a year made it a decent buy.

 

[VP89]

I definitely think Arsenal have a lot more money to spend, IMHO he chooses not to.

Sissoko is not a £30m player, anything like it, but we needed that type of player in our squad and the deal he got him on £6m a year made it a decent buy.

Wenger has said it himself - Arsenal cannot compete with United/City/Chelsea. He has money, but not enough to be in the top bracket like the said teams.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I don't think so. This thread has turned into a discussion of Spurs status as a club. Signing superstars elevates this immensely. If you are thinking along the lines of 'we have Dier or whoever, we don't need Pogba' then you are seriously missing the point.

I absolutely guarantee you that in 5 years time, with increased revenue from your new stadium, your club will be more than happy to pay bigger fees for bigger names.

I rather thought the point of signing players was to improve the first XI or squad ... and so to improve on-pitch performances and results.

This is quite different from signing players to elevate a club's "status" or to try to prove your "clout". The fact that United have chosen to go down this latter route is symptomatic of where it's all gone wrong for you in these last 3 years.

I'm sure Spurs - if they can afford it - might in future be "happy to pay bigger fees for bigger names". The difference is that we'd likely only do that if we needed to - i.e. if we don't have a very promising young player of our own for the same position who can be coached and developed into becoming just as good or even better, or else if we can't find someone else just as good (or better) for a lot less money through our scouting network.

Focusing on "big names" should be the last resort. When it becomes the first resort, you know the club has a problem.

 

[kouroux]

I'm comparing inter with ManUtd.

I see it but tbh looking at one or two exceptions like that isn't telling much. Right now Utd has mainly got money going for itself and the intent to get back to its best form but do you think if the clubs cannot finish top 4 for the next 3-4 seasons, we'd still be able to sign the same caliber of players ? I have no doubt we wouldn't.

 

[GlastonSpur]

Fair enough re. Bale. Other reports highlighting the granularity of the transfer contradict what Bale has said but he's more reliable then they are. Assuming of course he isn't just giving quotes on hindsight to appease fans.

I think ideally we'd only want to pay a massive amount if we deem the player to be worth it (from the performances and brand image views together). With us missing out on Champions League two years, it obviously meant we had to pay over the odds, but thats something Spurs would easily do themselves had they had the money to do so.. so I'm not sure what higher ground you think you're taking on the debate.

That Spurs spend less and get hidden gems? Well yeah, but thats because they're obliged to under the limitations of the transfer budget, not because they are actively choosing to.

That's not the only reason. We also spend less because we have a pretty good scouting system, a very good youth development system and are able to sell players (when we do) for a decent whack ... so we often don't need to spend lots of money in net terms.

Signing players for "brand image" reasons is a bad strategy. It's led United to signing the likes of Falcao, Di Maria and Schweinsteigger, and now to wildly over-paying for Pogba.

 

[Green_Red]

Why would it be win or bust ? Spurs never win anything and are currently in 2nd amidst a group of sides managed by the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola, Wenger, and Klopp.

Potch doesnt come across as a amanager that will be happy to just fight it out for top 4. I think he'll want to be challenging to win. Of he doesnt then he might move on.

 

[Raoul]

Potch doesnt come across as a amanager that will be happy to just fight it out for top 4. I think he'll want to be challenging to win. Of he doesnt then he might move on.

So if he fails to win at Spurs, then he will quit and get another job elsewhere with a club that is serious about winning ?

 

[GlastonSpur]

at the time we had Evra, one of the best LB in Europe. Bale was a child LB (17 years old). I believe we even told him he would be used as a "good prospect" for the future. Things have changed. We are building a young team so young players can go straight in 1st team now. We no longer have the Scholes, Giggs, Carricks of this world keeping youngsters out. Do you honestly believe you would beat us to signings today? We have even taken key players from you. If we want I am sure we could take Alli from you today and maybe even Pochettino in a few years. you buy well, its true but you also swim in different waters because you are a relatively unknown club internationally. Big players don't look in your direction as you haven't won anything of note, nor been competitive for decades. I am not tryin to mug it even if it appears so. I am just being frank.

Earlier you said "If Man Utd and Tottenham both come in for a player, you lose out".

Now, after I cited Bale as an example that disproved your claim, you say "things have changed". Well, yes they have, but the changes include that United don't have the same aura they had when Fergie wanted Bale and no longer offer CL football.

So yes, since we beat you to Bale before, I'm sure we could beat you to some other players now - for all the obvious reasons. And the notion that you could take Alli from us today is pure delusion. He has just signed a new, long contract, he's at a club on the rise, playing CL football, and he's playing for Pochettino. And beyond this, Levy will not in any case sell him to a Prem rival, even if he wanted to leave, which he doesn't.

 

[VP89]

That's not the only reason. We also spend less because we have a pretty good scouting system, a very good youth development system and are able to sell players (when we do) for a decent whack ... so we often don't need to spend lots of money in net terms.

Signing players for "brand image" reasons is a bad strategy. It's led United to signing the likes of Falcao, Di Maria and Schweinsteigger, and now to wildly over-paying for Pogba.

You really seem to have tunnel vision in your posts. You have a pretty good scouting system and a very good youth development system, and what, we don't as much? Its a moot point when you're comparing to a club who have also unearthed a few gems over the years whilst promoting very good youth talent themselves (Pogba included).

As I said, your strategy is out of obligation more than choice. If Levy had an unlimited pocket, it would be reflected in the transfer business. Truth is, he doesnt - especially during a period of stadium expansion. You are fortunate to have done some great business in recent years but don't try and act as though the ethos is a chosen one. I don't think we've signed players for brand image alone. Di Maria was one of the standout wingers in La Liga prior to joining us, Schweinstiger was worth the punt at £6m and Pogba is 23 years old for £33m installments for 3 years. In today's market that's not as terrible value as some moaners claim.

The only player I can think of who didn't materialise and wasn't bought for his performances in more recent years is Falcao, and he was a loan coming into a team with a wage surplus.

 

[Green_Red]

So if he fails to win at Spurs, then he will quit and get another job elsewhere with a club that is serious about winning ?

As someone else pointed out its a hypothetical question and all clubs can probably have the same question applied but in Spurs case they have a manager that seems to be pretty useful considering his age and time in management. But they also have a chairman in Levy who is considerably ambitious. With that in mind is there pressure on Potch to deliver a trophy either this season or next in order to keep pace with the ambition of the club. Also, if he continues to improve will other bigger clubs around Europe start circling and try to poach Potch? Thats all, hypothetical question. I think with spurs its an interesting situation because he has brought improvement.

 

[Mourinhonista]

I rather thought the point of signing players was to improve the first XI or squad ... and so to improve on-pitch performances and results.

This is quite different from signing players to elevate a club's "status" or to try to prove your "clout". The fact that United have chosen to go down this latter route is symptomatic of where it's all gone wrong for you in these last 3 years.

I'm sure Spurs - if they can afford it - might in future be "happy to pay bigger fees for bigger names". The difference is that we'd likely only do that if we needed to - i.e. if we don't have a very promising young player of our own for the same position who can be coached and developed into becoming just as good or even better, or else if we can't find someone else just as good (or better) for a lot less money through our scouting network.

Focusing on "big names" should be the last resort. When it becomes the first resort, you know the club has a problem.

Over the last couple of years your club did a pretty good job on spotting bargains. Even Son is bossing it now.

The problem is that i'm not sure how it's going to turn out for your lot when sooner or later your club get it wrong. Wenger once had an amazing team but he got it wrong with the generation of the likes of Wilshere (at least that's my opinion) and for some time Chelsea decided it was the right time to more or less try to sign most of the promising youngsters instead of proven quality. What happened? After their magic generation around Lampard, Drogba, Cole (Terry's legs are gone) dried out, it all went to shit, imo.

My point is, you can downplay the so far not setting the world alight Paul Pogba all you want, but because of his tools he will eventually come good. Football is still been played with the ball at your feet and Pogba has it all, imo.

But credit where credit is due, your players have been properly coached and the current setup is clearly working. The game against City was really an eye-opener.

 

[roonster09]

Sissoko is not a 30 million player, he is 6 million per year player.

Spurs fans well tell anything to make Levy look like genius when Sissoko deal was just a normal deal paid in installments.

 

[JaffyJoe]

No way I take Spurs' squad over ours which is testament to the job Pochettino is doing. The Spurs players I would take are Alderweireld, Kane and Dembele. Otherwise I think we have better players here all over the pitch. But Pochettino has done a fantastic job turning what he has into a good side. Despite last seasons late hiccup.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

No way I take Spurs' squad over ours which is testament to the job Pochettino is doing. The Spurs players I would take are Alderweireld, Kane and Dembele. Otherwise I think we have better players here all over the pitch. But Pochettino has done a fantastic job turning what he has into a good side. Despite last seasons late hiccup.

Out of interest how many Liverpool players would you take?

 

[JaffyJoe]

Out of interest how many Liverpool players would you take?

None.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

None.

I had a feeling it wouldn't be many, it's one reason why I'm interested as a neutral in Monday nights game as it wouldn't surprise me if Liverpool batter Utd by 3 or 4, not saying it will happen of course but I'm not sure if it does that many people will be surprised.

Hypothetically if that does happen how would you explain it if you don't think their players are upto the quality of your players?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I had a feeling it wouldn't be many, it's one reason why I'm interested as a neutral in Monday nights game as it wouldn't surprise me if Liverpool batter Utd by 3 or 4, not saying it will happen of course but I'm not sure if it does that many people will be surprised.

Hypothetically if that does happen how would you explain it if you don't think their players are upto the quality of your players?

We got battered at OT when they had Rafa, does that mean they had a better squad than ours? When you thrashed Chelsea on their way to the title (5-3 flattered Chelsea more than anyone else that night) did it mean that you had a better team than Chelsea that season? Perhaps the 1-4 in Munich was a clear indication of the quality gap between Real Madrid and Bayern Munich three seasons ago?

If we get beaten, it will simply mean that, right now, they are in better form (certainly one of the most in form sides in the PL) and that after 10 months Klopp's work is finally starting to bring good results for their club while we are still trying to implement new tactics. Let's see how the season pans out, if there were trophies for playing fantastic football in October, Wenger would need to build a new trophy room.

As for the squad comparisons, you're confusing form and team cohesion (manager's job) with individual quality. If you had Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhitaryan (the one we saw in Germany), Martial and De Gea, they would all start for you and you would have multiplied your chances to actually win the title. The problem is you can't afford them and that's the main reason Poch is currently getting a lot of praise without having won anything when, at the same time, there are question marks all over Mourinho.

 

[JaffyJoe]

I had a feeling it wouldn't be many, it's one reason why I'm interested as a neutral in Monday nights game as it wouldn't surprise me if Liverpool batter Utd by 3 or 4, not saying it will happen of course but I'm not sure if it does that many people will be surprised.

Hypothetically if that does happen how would you explain it if you don't think their players are upto the quality of your players?

Tactics.

I could see them beating us and on the basis of how I expect Mourinho to set up I think we'll lose.

Mourinho has cost us three games already with poor tactics and his reactive style. That will play right into Liverpool's hands. You keep it tight and compact and they'll press the living daylights out of you and unless you have those pressure resistant players at the back which we don't it can get messy.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

We got battered at OT when they had Rafa, does that mean they had a better squad than ours? When you thrashed Chelsea on their way to the title (5-3 flattered Chelsea more than anyone else that night) did it mean that you had a better team than Chelsea that season? Perhaps the 1-4 in Munich was a clear indication of the quality gap between Real Madrid and Bayern Munich three seasons ago?

If we get beaten, it will simply mean that, right now, they are in better form (certainly one of the most in form sides in the PL) and that after 10 months Klopp's work is finally starting to bring good results for their club while we are still trying to implement new tactics. Let's see how the season pans out, if there were trophies for playing fantastic football in October, Wenger would need to build a new trophy room.

As for the squad comparisons, you're confusing form and team cohesion (manager's job) with individual quality. If you had Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhitaryan (the one we saw in Germany), Martial and De Gea, they would all start for you and you would have multiplied your chances to actually win the title. The problem is you can't afford them and that's the main reason Poch is currently getting a lot of praise without having won anything when, at the same time, there are question marks all over Mourinho.

All of these results were a surprise and unexpected, as can happen in any game of football.

The difference is that there will be no surprise if Liverpool easily beat Utd on Monday, Liverpool are only 22/1 to win by 4 goals.

I think many here and understandably so overestimate the quality of your players and underestimate the quality of some players at other clubs. And this is the point it seems that a lot of you guys think just buy a load of expensive players and you will have a team when it's not always so. For example Zlatan would not be playing for us, we are a pressing side and the most advanced player has to work his nuts off. I'm not saying that he's not still a good player because he is but he doesn't fit us at all, same as he wouldn't fit Liverpool, with him and under the systems that Spurs and Liverpool play you would lose more than you gain.

Spurs and Liverpool are greater than the sum of their parts but it's also easy to underestimate the qualities of individuals when they play as a team and exaggerate the quality of individuals when they play as precisely that, individuals.

When I saw the Utd Leicester game I saw something about Pogba that interested me. When Mata scored, I think for 1-0 Pogba showed literally no reaction at all, just walked off almost as if it didn't matter because it wasn't him. It maybe something and it maybe nothing but I thought it looked poor and I wonder who he's playing for.

As for Spurs we are nowhere near the finished article, and for us it's still just about getting ourselves in position to battle for the top 4. We aren't the best team in the league but we are capable on our day of beating anybody in it.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

The thread title really needs to be changed to "Size of clubs"

 

[balaks]

The thread title really needs to be changed to "Size of clubs"

The title of this thread should simply be 'sigh, here we go again'

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

All of these results were a surprise and unexpected, as can happen in any game of football.

The difference is that there will be no surprise if Liverpool easily beat Utd on Monday, Liverpool are only 22/1 to win by 4 goals.

I think many here and understandably so overestimate the quality of your players and underestimate the quality of some players at other clubs. And this is the point it seems that a lot of you guys think just buy a load of expensive players and you will have a team when it's not always so. For example Zlatan would not be playing for us, we are a pressing side and the most advanced player has to work his nuts off. I'm not saying that he's not still a good player because he is but he doesn't fit us at all, same as he wouldn't fit Liverpool, with him and under the systems that Spurs and Liverpool play you would lose more than you gain.

Spurs and Liverpool are greater than the sum of their parts but it's also easy to underestimate the qualities of individuals when they play as a team and exaggerate the quality of individuals when they play as precisely that, individuals.

When I saw the Utd Leicester game I saw something about Pogba that interested me. When Mata scored, I think for 1-0 Pogba showed literally no reaction at all, just walked off almost as if it didn't matter because it wasn't him. It maybe something and it maybe nothing but I thought it looked poor and I wonder who he's playing for.

As for Spurs we are nowhere near the finished article, and for us it's still just about getting ourselves in position to battle for the top 4. We aren't the best team in the league but we are capable on our day of beating anybody in it.

This is where our opinions differ. I believe you have peaked and in order to take the next step you need to inject more quality which means a higher wage budget (not only to get new players but to prevent the good ones from leaving) and more money spent on transfer fees. The nature of the PL nowadays makes it difficult for everyone to consistently reach the 80+ points (something you haven't achieved, not even once) season after season which guarantee you a serious tittle challenge.

That's where the players come in. It's not about the money and how expensive a player is. There's a reason why Pogba was/is on Real Madrid's radar and Dembele isn't even considered an option (and i have defended Demabele's contribution more than once on here). If you want to move to the highest level, you need more individual quality and experience or you risk getting stack in the catch 22 situation Arsenal find themselves over the last decade: good, pleasing to the eye but not really good enough in the end. If you want to compete for the title every season, you'll eventually need a better advanced play maker than Eriksen, a better player to go 1v1 than Lamela, a more influential b2b midfielder than Dembele etc. Not to beat someone in one game but to win a marathon like the PL. Good team spirit can get you up to a certain level.

I'm not questioning your players' contribution and abilities, i'm just saying that their ceiling as individuals doesn't justify the notion that all is needed is depth in the squad. I'll gladly leave Kane, Alli and Aldeweireld out of this discussion but in each other position there's plenty of room for improvement. Same thing with Liverpool who, in my eyes, have no top class players in their squad. You saw what happened when they lost their only world class footballer in Suarez when most of their fans, alongside many outsiders, though that they would cope well without him. That's the difference individual talent can make. My opinion is that if you take Poch away from Spurs right now, you'll have lots of problems if you don't appoint the right man. The same thing goes for Liverpool and Klopp.

I'll bring United as an example. Part of our current woes is because of Ferguson's under spending in the post Ronaldo era and our (board) unwillingness to spot there was a significant drop in individual quality which was masked by Ferguson's supreme man management and knowledge of the PL. Add a couple of managers who couldn't attract top players or didn't know what to do with them (Di Maria) and you can understand why we are where we are.

As for the bookies, they look at form and recent results. And both you and Liverpool look better than us atm. They currently have Liverpool as second favorites to win the title, do you agree with that? I, for once, believe they'll finish below you after 38 games.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Honestly I would have Liverpool as 3rd favourites, for me it would be:

City
Arsenal
Liverpool
Utd/ Spurs

Everybody else will be also rans.

 

[Stacks]

Earlier you said "If Man Utd and Tottenham both come in for a player, you lose out".

Now, after I cited Bale as an example that disproved your claim, you say "things have changed". Well, yes they have, but the changes include that United don't have the same aura they had when Fergie wanted Bale and no longer offer CL football.

So yes, since we beat you to Bale before, I'm sure we could beat you to some other players now - for all the obvious reasons. And the notion that you could take Alli from us today is pure delusion. He has just signed a new, long contract, he's at a club on the rise, playing CL football, and he's playing for Pochettino. And beyond this, Levy will not in any case sell him to a Prem rival, even if he wanted to leave, which he doesn't.

Yet we can sign players from bigger clubs than you. Pogba, Zlatan, Miki all came from clubs who actually win things and have announced themselves on the biggest stage, yet aura of Man Utd lured them. I struggle to see why Spurs players would be immune to this. I have only seen you beat the likes of Everton to players nowadays. come on. Even at our lowest, we have still won more than Spurs have in the last 5 years. I believe you managed a carling cup a while back. An F.A. cup would be a dream for a Spurs fan right about now no?
If is claimed that you came in for Zlatan too.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

Yet we can sign players from bigger clubs than you. Pogba, Zlatan, Miki all came from clubs who actually win things and have announced themselves on the biggest stage, yet aura of Man Utd lured them. I struggle to see why Spurs players would be immune to this. I have only seen you beat the likes of Everton to players nowadays. come on. Even at our lowest, we have still won more than Spurs have in the last 5 years. I believe you managed a carling cup a while back. An F.A. cup would be a dream for a Spurs fan right about now no?
If is claimed that you came in for Zlatan too.

I very much doubt we had any interest in Ibrahimovich at all, he doesn't even come close to fitting Poch's system.

He didn't fit in with Pep's high pressing tempo in his 20's let alone a similarly energetic style whilst now in his mid 30's.

Regarding the FA cup I don't think too many of us would have swapped our CL place this year for last seasons FA Cup, I know I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Stacks]

I very much doubt we had any interest in Ibrahimovich at all, he doesn't even come close to fitting Poch's system.

He didn't fit in with Pep's high pressing tempo in his 20's let alone a similarly energetic style whilst now in his mid 30's.

Regarding the FA cup I don't think too many of us would have swapped our CL place this year for last seasons FA Cup, I know I certainly wouldn't.

"Sebastian Rode has revealed he turned down Tottenham before signing a four-year deal with Borussia Dortmund." We take Dortmund's best players sonny. I am yet to see a Spurs signing that demonstrates any kind of pulling power

 

[Green_Red]

All of these results were a surprise and unexpected, as can happen in any game of football.

The difference is that there will be no surprise if Liverpool easily beat Utd on Monday, Liverpool are only 22/1 to win by 4 goals.

I think many here and understandably so overestimate the quality of your players and underestimate the quality of some players at other clubs. And this is the point it seems that a lot of you guys think just buy a load of expensive players and you will have a team when it's not always so. For example Zlatan would not be playing for us, we are a pressing side and the most advanced player has to work his nuts off. I'm not saying that he's not still a good player because he is but he doesn't fit us at all, same as he wouldn't fit Liverpool, with him and under the systems that Spurs and Liverpool play you would lose more than you gain.

Spurs and Liverpool are greater than the sum of their parts but it's also easy to underestimate the qualities of individuals when they play as a team and exaggerate the quality of individuals when they play as precisely that, individuals.

When I saw the Utd Leicester game I saw something about Pogba that interested me. When Mata scored, I think for 1-0 Pogba showed literally no reaction at all, just walked off almost as if it didn't matter because it wasn't him. It maybe something and it maybe nothing but I thought it looked poor and I wonder who he's playing for.

As for Spurs we are nowhere near the finished article, and for us it's still just about getting ourselves in position to battle for the top 4. We aren't the best team in the league but we are capable on our day of beating anybody in it.

This isnt the Liverpool - United matchday thread

 

[Green_Red]

This is where our opinions differ. I believe you have peaked and in order to take the next step you need to inject more quality which means a higher wage budget (not only to get new players but to prevent the good ones from leaving) and more money spent on transfer fees. The nature of the PL nowadays makes it difficult for everyone to consistently reach the 80+ points (something you haven't achieved, not even once) season after season which guarantee you a serious tittle challenge.

That's where the players come in. It's not about the money and how expensive a player is. There's a reason why Pogba was/is on Real Madrid's radar and Dembele isn't even considered an option (and i have defended Demabele's contribution more than once on here). If you want to move to the highest level, you need more individual quality and experience or you risk getting stack in the catch 22 situation Arsenal find themselves over the last decade: good, pleasing to the eye but not really good enough in the end. If you want to compete for the title every season, you'll eventually need a better advanced play maker than Eriksen, a better player to go 1v1 than Lamela, a more influential b2b midfielder than Dembele etc. Not to beat someone in one game but to win a marathon like the PL. Good team spirit can get you up to a certain level.

I'm not questioning your players' contribution and abilities, i'm just saying that their ceiling as individuals doesn't justify the notion that all is needed is depth in the squad. I'll gladly leave Kane, Alli and Aldeweireld out of this discussion but in each other position there's plenty of room for improvement. Same thing with Liverpool who, in my eyes, have no top class players in their squad. You saw what happened when they lost their only world class footballer in Suarez when most of their fans, alongside many outsiders, though that they would cope well without him. That's the difference individual talent can make. My opinion is that if you take Poch away from Spurs right now, you'll have lots of problems if you don't appoint the right man. The same thing goes for Liverpool and Klopp.

I'll bring United as an example. Part of our current woes is because of Ferguson's under spending in the post Ronaldo era and our (board) unwillingness to spot there was a significant drop in individual quality which was masked by Ferguson's supreme man management and knowledge of the PL. Add a couple of managers who couldn't attract top players or didn't know what to do with them (Di Maria) and you can understand why we are where we are.

As for the bookies, they look at form and recent results. And both you and Liverpool look better than us atm. They currently have Liverpool as second favorites to win the title, do you agree with that? I, for once, believe they'll finish below you after 38 games.

Thats an interesting comparison between Spurs and Arsenal. Both put a new stadium high on their list of priorities. Do you think Spurs miht end up in that smae position over the next few years? I know nothing about thier finances.