McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This is one of the more patronising and condescending paragraphs I’ve read on here for a while. All on the day Rashford notched his 35th goal or assist for the season, again from the right-hand side adapting for the benefit of his teammates.

agreed. There’s more tripe in the post from @tjb than in a large tin of Pedigree Chum.

 

[mikel]

Fred and McTominay are both good players, above average perhaps, but not elite. On a side that's going to contend year after year for CL and EPL titles I'm not sure they're regulars in the top 11. That being said, any money to be spent needs to find a striker to replace Cavani whenever he leaves. This team plays so much better with a true big-dog 9 up top.

 

[Litch]

I guess like most things, it's all about opinions. I think given the nature of most of the comments, the truth lies something in the middle. The irony is our best games in the league and in Europe, Scott and Fred have played well and contributed to the win. Always think, the issue isn't about those players who play to their glass ceiling, it's those like Pogs who don't in the biggest of moments. Fred was bought in an inflated market when even Arsenal paid 70m for a player but Fred was never bought to win us trophies, Pogs was. Harry cost 80m and we are still talking about buying another player to get the best out of him. It's amazing that 170m worth of talent yet we focus on 2 players that are playing to their ability. Arguably if others were too, Scott and Fred would not be the issue.

Easy dog to kick but are just distractions from the truth, our best players have been consistently good enough....

 

[Leftback99]

They've done a good job this season but if there is a position our first XI that is the most obvious and easiest to upgrade this summer then it is CM.
- Van de Beek doesn't seem to be seen as an option there.
- Pogba is either leaving or is now more of a LW option.
- Matic is on the wane and used sparingly

 

[032Devil]

The likes of KdB-Gundogan, Kovacic-Kante, Ndidi-Tielemans isn’t even a debate, but I genuinely would rather have the likes of Rice-Soucek or Xhaka-Partey in our midfield than McFred. They make us lose so much attacking impetus for the benefit of slightly more defensive stability.

I rate both players individually (I started the Fred was value for money thread!), but they are frankly shit together. Their limitations on the ball stifle us so much in our build up play.

We desperately need a new midfield 2 this summer if we are to challenge for the title next season. Pogba and a new DM.

And yet, McFred have played a major part in keeping us in second place in the table. They may or may not be the best but there's no denying that they've played their part in our success. I'm not sure if we need just a single player to replace McFred. Sir Alex always had two midfielders: Keane & Butt, Keane & Veron, Paul Scholes & Michael Carrick etc.

 

[city-puma]

They've done a good job this season but if there is a position our first XI that is the most obvious and easiest to upgrade this summer then it is CM.
- Van de Beek doesn't seem to be seen as an option there.
- Pogba is either leaving or is now more of a LW option.
- Matic is on the wane and used sparingly

Pogba will go to nowhere as I am quite certain now. Juventus is the only option but they are so bad at the moment. They probably have one of the most aged squad.
I would keep Matic for another year. He is still very useful in the last 20 mins of a game when the opponent tired out.

 

[Litch]

And yet, McFred have played a major part in keeping us in second place in the table. They may or may not be the best but there's no denying that they've played their part in our success. I'm not sure if we need just a single player to replace McFred. Sir Alex always had two midfielders: Keane & Butt, Keane & Veron, Paul Scholes & Michael Carrick etc.

Agree. This is the madness of fans, they say we need to upgrade the midfield to compete, then they pick midfielders from teams that are not competing? Ive seen Fred and Scott play games against City and PSG, and contribute to winning yet people would sooner midfielders that haven't kicked a ball in Europe? I honest believe if Fred and Scott were in a West Ham shirt, people would be talking about them in a very different way than in a Utd one.
I'm not Ole out but he's currently not SAF Utd quality. In fact who is on this team if the measurement is the greats? When it comes to McFred, the standard is always against the best, whilst forgetting we won titles with lesser players too.

 

[tjb]

This is one of the more patronising and condescending paragraphs I’ve read on here for a while. All on the day Rashford notched his 35th goal or assist for the season, again from the right-hand side adapting for the benefit of his teammates.

I'm not trying to be patronizing in regard to Rashford. However, I don't think he's Mbappe or Neymar. I don't understand why some people are so averse to him shifting positions for the betterment of the team when other similar players have done so now and in the past.

 

[tjb]

I guess like most things, it's all about opinions. I think given the nature of most of the comments, the truth lies something in the middle. The irony is our best games in the league and in Europe, Scott and Fred have played well and contributed to the win. Always think, the issue isn't about those players who play to their glass ceiling, it's those like Pogs who don't in the biggest of moments. Fred was bought in an inflated market when even Arsenal paid 70m for a player but Fred was never bought to win us trophies, Pogs was. Harry cost 80m and we are still talking about buying another player to get the best out of him. It's amazing that 170m worth of talent yet we focus on 2 players that are playing to their ability. Arguably if others were too, Scott and Fred would not be the issue.

Easy dog to kick but are just distractions from the truth, our best players have been consistently good enough....

Here's my problem with that though. For years Pogba was dragged because he didn't literally do everything for United. Players like Herrera however were praised for having performances that may not have been of the highest standard, but were clearly the highest they could produce. People were blaming our best players for the failures of the team when it was the fact that the players around them, as hard working as they were, simply weren't good enough.

Speaking of Harry, he' s been good this season, 80m or not. Again, getting blamed for the weaknesses of Lindelof who he literally has to protect and cover every game. It's easy blaming the big names, but in a club this size, every player is expected to produce quality performances. Scott and Fred have given the best they could have given, and in Fred's case, I think in the right circumstance, he could look even better. However, lets not act like they produce quality performances consistently. That's simply not true.

 

[Teja]

you Can manipulate data anyway you want. Like Shaw creating the most chances for a fullback in Europe - when his crosses are still not pinpoint but it’s attributed as a chance crested non the less.

Chance creation implies a successful pass / cross that lead to a shot, not just random balls into box. I don't see how that's manipulation, it's one of the clearer stats. It's like saying oh Cavani scored a bunch of goals but those are just manipulated stats, he's actually shit. That's not really an argument.

Fred’s consistency is just not there. Many times he’s found wanting high up the pitch of in front of his own goal.

What does "found wanting high up the pitch in front of his own goal" even mean? Are you saying he can't win the ball in the opposing half? This is not true. Are you saying he can't win the ball in our half? That's not really true either.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Chance creation implies a successful pass / cross that lead to a shot, not just random balls into box. I don't see how that's manipulation, it's one of the clearer stats. It's like saying oh Cavani scored a bunch of goals but those are just manipulated stats, he's actually shit. That's not really an argument.



What does "found wanting high up the pitch in front of his own goal" even mean? Are you saying he can't win the ball in the opposing half? This is not true. Are you saying he can't win the ball in our half? That's not really true either.

It’s a simple point on Shaw. You’d swear he was Beckham with his crosses - when his corners are also poor but Maguire gets a looping header on it. People get bogged down in stats when in reality the cross needs to be more accurate. Anyway that’s besides the point.

Found wanting up the pitch and his own half. He presses high, gets caught out up high for not slowing down the play of the player his is marking. In front of our own box he has contributed to many a blunder, led to 4 goals at the very least this season. It’s not good enough, we also need a secondary DM as Ole knows it’s not good enough

I suspect if you check how many interceptions and tackles Fred has won high up the pitch compared to other midfielders, you'd retract your claim. Fred does it so much these days, that is seems as though it goes unnoticed because it's expected

stats again. He still gets lost high up the pitch many times in a game as he presses a midfielder. I won’t retract my claim as I know he isn’t good enough for the role. He works his arse off, but he is the one that you know is one step away from a costly mistake - he’s like Lindelof in that respect.

why do we always have to settle for mediocrity because someone “is a good lad” and “works hard” - the same you can say for lower table team players?

he’s not good enough to do it on his own or with a secondary defensive midfielder.

The thing is that Fred has a better pass completition rate in the current season than Kante. He also averaged more passes per game and has less bad control per game (whatever it means). It is much easier to notice the mistakes of our own players, because we watch every minute of their performance. For example, Fred had the most passes (68) and the best pass completition rate today (95,6%) and McTominay is not so far behind (60 and 90% respectively). So they could be trusted.

Doesn’t Kante play more advanced these days? He’s also past his prime. Kante 3 years ago Is still different class (and around same age Fred is now).

we need a leader of a DM and a commanding CB. Get the spine right.

 

[Bobcat]

There are multiple areas of the team that needs to improve, the McTominay-Fred pairing included. The midfield is not poor; both players are good, but it isn’t good enough and we need a midfielder or two who can offer more with the ball from deep. All reasonable, all right.

This. Claiming they are the worst midfield duo in the PL is clerly hyperbole, but as you said, they offer little on the ball for a team that have ambitions to win the big trophies

 

[A-man]

I think the problem comes when we are pressed high up, like first half against Villa. They are not very press resistant and we lose our build-up game.

 

[Bebestation]

I think the problem comes when we are pressed high up, like first half against Villa. They are not very press resistant and we lose our build-up game.

This is what I see too.

Fred has a good quick pass forward. Both him and Mctominay drop deep and cover our defense very well;

but when they get pressed deep right in front of the defence they get scared, make mistakes and end up losing the ball.

 

[Sylar]

They are good for the position we are in

Think we need to upgrade on one for the starting line up to take the next level for competing for the league and CL

 

[roonster09]

So McFred is not even top 10 midfield.
Rashford is a midtable player and won't start for any of the top 4/6 team (even though he is starter for 2nd placed team)
Pogba just turns up whenever he wants to.
Bruno is not all that good, he didnt play well for months and also there are reasons why no other big club wanted him
AWB is terrible
Lindelof is shit
De Gea is past it
Ole is a PE teacher and the worst coach in the league.

Something is not really adding up there.

 

[A-man]

This is what I see too.

Fred has a good quick pass forward. Both him and Mctominay drop deep and cover our defense very well;

but when they get pressed deep right in front of the defence they get scared, make mistakes and end up losing the ball.

Yes when we are pressed they don’t offer enough on the ball, means we lose possession in vulnerable positions, such as the goal against Villa. It is especially in tight situations just outside the box they have problems. It looked to me as Villa targeted them with their press. Second half was better. We had moved up McFred and let the CBs defend that space instead, and McFred got more space with the ball, and also Villa didn’t have the stamina to fulfil that press another half.

 

[A-man]

So McFred is not even top 10 midfield.
Rashford is a midtable player and won't start for any of the top 4/6 team (even though he is starter for 2nd placed team)
Pogba just turns up whenever he wants to.
Bruno is not all that good, he didnt play well for months and also there are reasons why no other big club wanted him
AWB is terrible
Lindelof is shit
De Gea is past it
Ole is a PE teacher and the worst coach in the league.

Something is not really adding up there.

United 2020/21 is just a pile of shite who got lucky in more or less every game.

 

[Bebestation]

Yes when we are pressed they don’t offer enough on the ball, means we lose possession in vulnerable positions, such as the goal against Villa. It is especially in tight situations just outside the box they have problems. It looked to me as Villa targeted them with their press. Second half was better. We had moved up McFred and let the CBs defend that space instead, and McFred got more space with the ball, and also Villa didn’t have the stamina to fulfil that press another half.

Roma pressed Fred too who tried to be skilful in a deep area and lost the ball in a dangerous position that led to a goal.

You could argue even when Pogba plays deep at CDM that he is not very press resistant and loses the ball more than he should.

A Press resistant player is important as our next CDM.

 

[Andycoleno9]

We have two players doing job of one player. We simply must buy top defensive midfielder. Fred can stay for rotation because he is better than McT and McT should be sold.
Edit: Inter need to sell player. Brozovic should be our main target. He is top dmc who we need.

 

[Borys]

Roma pressed Fred too who tried to be skilful in a deep area and lost the ball in a dangerous position that led to a goal.

You could argue even when Pogba plays deep at CDM that he is not very press resistant and loses the ball more than he should.

A Press resistant player is important as our next CDM.

That's a good point, and there are two reasons for that:
1. Fred is not good in tight spaces (but he's not that bad either)
2. It is difficult for our midfielders to play through press because we have a lot of players up front (team is very stretched), and in consequence there is very limited number of passing options

We need CDM but we also need to change approach a bit and wide players/strikers to drop deeper in the buildup.

We have two players doing job of one player. We simply must buy top defensive midfielder. Fred can stay for rotation because he is better than McT and McT should be sold.
Edit: Inter need to sell player. Brozovic should be our main target. He is top dmc who we need.

I don't think we should be selling McTominay, he is quite versatile player. Unlikely to be first choice midfielder for us IMO. Maybe defender. A bit like more skilled O'Shea.

 

[M Bison]

"Press resistant" is that a new football term or just one invented on the caf?

 

[M Bison]

We have two players doing job of one player. We simply must buy top defensive midfielder. Fred can stay for rotation because he is better than McT and McT should be sold.
Edit: Inter need to sell player. Brozovic should be our main target. He is top dmc who we need.

I'm a fan of McT, personally wouldnt sell him.

I think we can add some quality/competition into our CM but if you're expecting Fred to become rotation and McT to be sold, i think you'll be disappointed next season.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I do think long term we could upgrade on these two (both absolutely have a place in the squad though), but it’s unrealistic to look at 2 CM’s this summer.

Personally I’d like it if we actually finally replaced Scholes, someone like Modric is my dream transfer. Watching Modric against Chelsea the other day made me realise how much we could use someone with his skill set. I have no idea who we could sign with that ability though.

Someone who can control the pace of the game would be immense for us to grow in controlling games more and also vital in seeing out games too.

 

[Andycoleno9]

That's a good point, and there are two reasons for that:
1. Fred is not good in tight spaces (but he's not that bad either)
2. It is difficult for our midfielders to play through press because we have a lot of players up front (team is very stretched), and in consequence there is very limited number of passing options

We need CDM but we also need to change approach a bit and wide players/strikers to drop deeper in the buildup.


I don't think we should be selling McTominay, he is quite versatile player. Unlikely to be first choice midfielder for us IMO. Maybe defender. A bit like more skilled O'Shea.

That is my problem with McT. For United level; he is not good midfielder because he lacks vision, passing skill and technique in general. He is not good enough in defensive job because he is not mobile enough and is not good in positioning. Fred at least has better technique and passing skill (comparing to McT) and is mobile.
I can only see player like McT in defence in 352 formation.

But, i know that he will be in first 11 in midfield next year

 

[KW2006]

Fred has improved, McT not so much, though the latter is obviously a few years younger.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

both Fred and McTom try to press high and win absolutely nothing most of the time.

you Can manipulate data anyway you want.

Gotta love this. In other words, "the data is lying because it shows my agenda-driven bollocks up".

 

[mancan92]

we are not winning a league with those as your midfield 2 its just not going to happen we all know they are not quite good enough. even their biggiest supporters can't say they look like a elite duo or a champions league winning duo

 

[Mickson]

They are very good in competitive games, where it's not certain we have more of the ball which we can see from some of their great games against top teams. In games where it's intensity and a midfield battle. They are not great when we meet Burnley at home, because they are limited with the ball and they don't play quick passing. Their strengths (intensity, winning the ball, winning duels) become meaningless. It's not rocket science. It's not black and white. They are good sometimes, they are bad sometimes. Can we upgrade on them? Yes. Are they the worst midfield? No.

 

[Glorio]

Need a new defensive midfielder. Fred is just not good enough. McTom in poor form since he came back from injury/around the time he has the shits.

both Fred and McTom try to press high and win absolutely nothing most of the time. A decent DM would do a better job than these 2 combined.

get a leading centreback (lindelof is awful) and leading defensive midfielder, that would be a great summer in this climate.

I suspect if you check how many interceptions and tackles Fred has won high up the pitch compared to other midfielders, you'd retract your claim. Fred does it so much these days, that is seems as though it goes unnoticed because it's expected

stats again. He still gets lost high up the pitch many times in a game as he presses a midfielder. I won’t retract my claim as I know he isn’t good enough for the role. He works his arse off, but he is the one that you know is one step away from a costly mistake - he’s like Lindelof in that respect.

why do we always have to settle for mediocrity because someone “is a good lad” and “works hard” - the same you can say for lower table team players?

he’s not good enough to do it on his own or with a secondary defensive midfielder.

Doesn’t Kante play more advanced these days? He’s also past his prime. Kante 3 years ago Is still different class (and around same age Fred is now).

we need a leader of a DM and a commanding CB. Get the spine right.

But I wasn't saying whether he was good enough for the role or not, I for one feels he's very erratic particularly with his passing under pressure, however, you specifically claimed he tries to press up high and wins absolutely nothing most of the time, which is purely wrong. It's actually the opposite of reality. That's the claim I'm on about - I actually bolded it out.

You seem to have a problem with data and stats, incidentally, they're what separate smoke, mirrors, and fairies from reality - particularly with straight forward stats like successful tackles and interceptions. It's not the the kind of stat you pad.

If you make a claim, at least back it up with facts, and if you get challenged with facts, then prove the specific facts are not credible as opposed to disregarding them like they don't matter. And no, I'm not referring to pulling on Luke Shaw's chance creation which has nothing to do with the subject at hand and as a stat is very different from something as straightforward as successful tackles (i.e. I dispossess the opposition and win the ball back for my side)

 

[Bilbo]

we are not winning a league with those as your midfield 2 its just not going to happen we all know they are not quite good enough. even their biggiest supporters can't say they look like a elite duo or a champions league winning duo

I don't see why we couldn't. They are a crucial part of this team. Not perfect, not sexy names, but they've been a constant in what we have achieved this season.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Gotta love this. In other words, "the data is lying because it shows my agenda-driven bollocks up".

so do you think Fred is the ideal man for us to continue going forward? It’s not agenda driven, I have nothing against him. He works his arse off but I just don’t have the confidence in him. He is liable to make mistakes, same way de Gea made mistakes and lost his place.

watching him chase his particular marker and get caught high does happen. Stats don’t show that. He just has the work ethic to do it again, again and again. Fair play to him - but he’s stillin my eyes not good enough if we want to compete on multiple fronts.

 

[mancan92]

I don't see why we couldn't. They are a crucial part of this team. Not perfect, not sexy names, but they've been a constant in what we have achieved this season.

Yes and what have we achieved this season? 2nd place and Europa league final. If we want to get to the stage of actually winning the league, champions league and maybe a treble year again they cannot be in the starting line up. What we achieved this season is not what we should be aiming for. We should be aiming for what city aim for. Winning all honors.

Standards really have dropped.

 

[A-man]

Roma pressed Fred too who tried to be skilful in a deep area and lost the ball in a dangerous position that led to a goal.

You could argue even when Pogba plays deep at CDM that he is not very press resistant and loses the ball more than he should.

A Press resistant player is important as our next CDM.

I think Pogba is very difficult to take the ball from but sometimes he overworks it and loses the ball anyway. I wish he would play a little more one touch.

Fully agree that a press resistant DM must be prioritised. We really struggled first half against Villa.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Its perfectly fine to have a very functional midfield when most of your creativity comes from the flanks. The left wing is probably the best attacking combo in the league with Shaw and either Rashford or Pogba playing there. Fred and McT will look much less of an issue once we balance our attack on the right wing.

 

[MadDogg]

so do you think Fred is the ideal man for us to continue going forward? It’s not agenda driven, I have nothing against him. He works his arse off but I just don’t have the confidence in him. He is liable to make mistakes, same way de Gea made mistakes and lost his place.

watching him chase his particular marker and get caught high does happen. Stats don’t show that. He just has the work ethic to do it again, again and again. Fair play to him - but he’s stillin my eyes not good enough if we want to compete on multiple fronts.

He's not perfect and does make some mistakes. However I have no doubt that the chances that are created for us from his high pressing significantly outnumber the chances that the opposition create because of it. If we replace him with somebody who gets caught out of position less, chances are that we'll also have less chances created because of us not winning the ball as much in dangerous positions.

 

[A-man]

Yes and what have we achieved this season? 2nd place and Europa league final. If we want to get to the stage of actually winning the league, champions league and maybe a treble year again they cannot be in the starting line up. What we achieved this season is not what we should be aiming for. We should be aiming for what city aim for. Winning all honors.

Standards really have dropped.

I think this attitude is not helping, to expect success without having to work and wait for it, to just buy new players all the time. It’s a steady progress that takes you where you want to be, look at City. This season was a big step up from last season and even if I think both McF can be upgraded, they deserve cred for our improvements this season.

 

[Mr Anderson]

He's not perfect and does make some mistakes. However I have no doubt that the chances that are created for us from his high pressing significantly outnumber the chances that the opposition create because of it. If we replace him with somebody who gets caught out of position less, chances are that we'll also have less chances created because of us not winning the ball as much in dangerous positions.

but If he is so good at his job, why do we need another DM in there? Or is it just Ole not trusting to try it out. We have the same midfield set up to play Sheffield United and PSG - it’s baffling.

Fred still as a lot to do to appease me. Playing out from the back, I don’t trust him - 4 goals from him making a hash of it this season with him facing our own goal and unaware of what is behind him.

there is a reason he is targeted when on the ball.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Do the other 9 teams even play a 2 man midfield?

 

[BazzaBear]

we are not winning a league with those as your midfield 2 its just not going to happen we all know they are not quite good enough. even their biggiest supporters can't say they look like a elite duo or a champions league winning duo

Isn't this exactly what everyone said about Liverpool's limited midfield just before they won a CL and a PL?