Spot on.
Messi is better than maradona....
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
To me it's not so much "haste" in proclaiming Messi as it is the feeling that whatever he does will be always dwarfed by the same arguments, if his career doesn't include winning a World Cup carrying Argentina... Even if he does that, we'll likely revert to the Napoli arguments and the idea that Maradona played against better defences (which is bullshit IMO, I can't believe that football has regressed tactically since then when arguably every other sport evolved).
I do take the opinions of who saw Maradona more regularly very highly and tend to agree with their opinion that Maradona changed the course of games in a way that Messi doesn't. That said, I don't think Messi will ever have the same chances hence it's impossible to compare. Messi plays week in week out in a superb team, Maradona played several years in a team where he was by far the best player and that were toothless (bit of an exaggeration) without him. I think that helped learn and develop his game in a way to best serve their team, and it was easier for him to do that as well with his national team.
No one will ever do that again because any player that resembles his ability in the least of fashions will be picked up by a massive club and play in a super-squad from early years. Messi developed his game in the way to better serve his team as well, a ruthless goal machine with all-round brilliance and consistency at a level that I haven't seen for the past 20 years.
I guess my main point is that we're talking about different eras in football and it will always be unfair to make these comparisons in such strict lines, and impossible to come to a final conclusion. That can be said for Pele vs Maradona, Messi vs Maradona and whatever. Football is different now. The pinnacle of the competition is the CL, players get to the World Cups knackered after a season with over 60 competitive games, and you no longer have a top footballer making most of his career in average teams in balanced leagues.
The only reason I tend to favour Messi is that I'm the opinion that the game is at a higher level today so footballers are on average better now than they were 20 years ago, with more rigorous training schemes, more tactical knowledge, a larger playing pool, etc... Basically the same reason why I think Usain Bolt is better than Jesse Owens. I also value extremely his consistency, and on that matter I won't take the opinion of the ones who saw Maradona in his prime because I simply don't believe they watched Serie A week in week out like we can watch La Liga nowadays.
I do take the opinions of who saw Maradona more regularly very highly and tend to agree with their opinion that Maradona changed the course of games in a way that Messi doesn't. That said, I don't think Messi will ever have the same chances hence it's impossible to compare. Messi plays week in week out in a superb team, Maradona played several years in a team where he was by far the best player and that were toothless (bit of an exaggeration) without him. I think that helped learn and develop his game in a way to best serve their team, and it was easier for him to do that as well with his national team.
No one will ever do that again because any player that resembles his ability in the least of fashions will be picked up by a massive club and play in a super-squad from early years. Messi developed his game in the way to better serve his team as well, a ruthless goal machine with all-round brilliance and consistency at a level that I haven't seen for the past 20 years.
I guess my main point is that we're talking about different eras in football and it will always be unfair to make these comparisons in such strict lines, and impossible to come to a final conclusion. That can be said for Pele vs Maradona, Messi vs Maradona and whatever. Football is different now. The pinnacle of the competition is the CL, players get to the World Cups knackered after a season with over 60 competitive games, and you no longer have a top footballer making most of his career in average teams in balanced leagues.
The only reason I tend to favour Messi is that I'm the opinion that the game is at a higher level today so footballers are on average better now than they were 20 years ago, with more rigorous training schemes, more tactical knowledge, a larger playing pool, etc... Basically the same reason why I think Usain Bolt is better than Jesse Owens. I also value extremely his consistency, and on that matter I won't take the opinion of the ones who saw Maradona in his prime because I simply don't believe they watched Serie A week in week out like we can watch La Liga nowadays.
It's just a matter of time though. Pele vs. Maradona used to be all the rage and to a large extent replicated everything we are seeing on here (carrying a team, not being guilty of playing in a great team, professionalism/drug addiction/cheating, etc.).
It has died down, largely because there's very few people out there who give two fecks about Pelé any more. It's likely the same will happen with Maradona and in a couple of decades it is Random Player vs. Messi, for as long as Messi fans still care.
One thing I'm sure: one of the two will never again be someone to have achieved what Maradona did, they will all be supersquad stars.
I've really hated flashy players from when I was playing until now. That's one of Messi's great qualities for me - he just plays for the sake of the game and not to 'entertain' or 'show off' or other bollocks (see Best).
I can't agree with this, that Ronaldinho (2004-2006) had everything Messi did, except the insane goal output. I'd rate his playmaking skills more as well.
That Barcelona with Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco, Guily... were a total pleasure to watch at times.
I've said this from the very outset, Messi hasn't done anything comparable to Maradona and probably never will because he simply won't have to develop that side.
Football has changed, you are never going to get the 17th placed team in a top league singing one of the the BPITW for a world transfer record. Even if they had a sugardaddy, the chap just wouldn't go there.
Is it unfair on Messi? Let's put it another way, isn't it to Maradona's credit that he made such a bold move and turned them into top 4 material by his second season and then consistently battled for top spot for half a decade?
It's an astonishing achievement and you say Messi will never accomplish it because a similar scenario will never arise. But he most likely wouldn't either, which is the point. Send Messi to Granada and see how they fare, there's not a chance in hell that he would pull off such a transformation.
Italy? 80s? With refs not protecting players half as much as they do today?
Tassotti-Costacurta-Baresi-Maldini
vs.
Arbeloa-Ramos-Pepe-Marcelo
Since you brought him up earlier, go check how many games Forlán played in 2009-2010.
That's different, they run 100m and one runs it faster. Easy.
Here you compare two players. Sure, it's different eras, leagues, fitness and conditioning, etc. But all that applied equally to all the players they played with or against, and Maradona's impact in his era was far more significant than Messi's.
Bizarre comment. Why wouldn't people watch the best league in the world, with the best players in it, week in week out? I would argue it made far more sense to watch Serie A in the 80s than La Liga these days. I actually watch very few token La Liga games these days as most games are so one-sided it's not worth the time invested.
You do have a point in that before cable you didn't have as many choices and usually were stuck with a couple of games whether your preferred team played in them or not, but given it was such a good balanced league they were all worth watching.
Me too. I love how he doesn't need tricks to beat players and leave them dead.
I can't agree with this, that Ronaldinho (2004-2006) had everything Messi did, except the insane goal output. I'd rate his playmaking skills more as well.
That Barcelona with Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco, Guily... were a total pleasure to watch at times.
Surely which makes Messi better than Ronaldinho even in their prime. Messi is basically Ronaldinho with insane goals. His passing is also excellent. His free kicks are improving and yet he has just turned 25. Scary.
I appreciate you taking the time to dissect my arguments and giving your view on the matter.
I don't understand why my final comment was so bizarre. Do you honestly believe that the people in here that saw Maradona in his prime had access to the Italian League in TV week in week out? I think in Portugal we hadn't, that may have not been the case in other countries with a better developed TV structure.
What Messi does with the ball, that high speed superhuman control consistently, that thing Ronaldino simply couldn't do as well as Messi.Ronaldinho was the more audacious player though but in my opinion not the better one.
Fat Ronaldo for me was one player who managed that close control with samba tricks thrown here and there and had that Brazilian audacity also.
Fat Ronaldo for me was one player who managed that close control with samba tricks thrown here and there and had that Brazilian audacity also.
I did, and I lived in Uruguay. Fair enough, you could argue it was a big draw given the immigration ties with Italy, etc. But we got the Bundesliga as well
I never managed to wrap my head around a reason for that, it was actually easier to get hold of Hamburg vs. Fortuna Dusseldorf than any Spanish game not involving Real or Barca I guess the state channel knew how to keep viewers happy
i really hate when people analyse and compare the careers of players from totally different generations, especially when one is still playing.
Maradona is obviously to date the best who has played it, for me anyway. But I do absolutely hate the way his career is over romanticised, probably by people who saw the odd Napoli game and his 6 or 7 WC games every 4 years.
Maradona is obviously to date the best who has played it, for me anyway. But I do absolutely hate the way his career is over romanticised, probably by people who saw the odd Napoli game and his 6 or 7 WC games every 4 years.
I still hold Ronaldo in higher esteem, just about. But Messi is not done yet of course.
One thing that people should always be aware of is perception.
Careers should be taken on their body of work, day in and day out. Plenty of super stars have been mythologized in their sport based on a PR blitz and romanticized portrayal of a few key moments.
I was too young to appreciate Maradona in his prime, but it is hard to imagine it possible that he could be much better than Messi.
Messi is a phenom, and he delivers the goods day in and day out. I mean, 82 goals in today's game. If you told me someone would score 82 goals in all competitions I'd say you were playing Football Manager and even then, 82 goals is ridiculous.
On top of all this, you're an ass if you don't like Messi. If we lived in a world without Messi and Hollywood made a movie that mirrored his career, it would be panned as garbage. Too over the top. Too feel good. Too unrealistic. It would be so unbelievable, you wouldn't believe it.
Yet here we are and this is real life.
Careers should be taken on their body of work, day in and day out. Plenty of super stars have been mythologized in their sport based on a PR blitz and romanticized portrayal of a few key moments.
I was too young to appreciate Maradona in his prime, but it is hard to imagine it possible that he could be much better than Messi.
Messi is a phenom, and he delivers the goods day in and day out. I mean, 82 goals in today's game. If you told me someone would score 82 goals in all competitions I'd say you were playing Football Manager and even then, 82 goals is ridiculous.
On top of all this, you're an ass if you don't like Messi. If we lived in a world without Messi and Hollywood made a movie that mirrored his career, it would be panned as garbage. Too over the top. Too feel good. Too unrealistic. It would be so unbelievable, you wouldn't believe it.
Yet here we are and this is real life.
Most PR blitzes on Maradona have been negative: cokehead, cheat, Fidel lover, Que me la chupen... I can't think of a single top player who has had as much bad press and been vilified as much as Maradona. And yet, that couldn't get anyone to ignore his genius.
Here we go again. He is phenomenal, no doubt, but he is in one of the best teams ever and being serviced by some of the most selfless world class creators ever. His ratio for Barca is 0.80, his ratio for Argentina is 0.39, which is very good as well, but that's how much of a difference it makes to play for Barca with those players and a suitable philosophy they have been all raised in, or in a normal team. That's if a side as talented as Argentina can be considered normal.
Preferring Maradona does not imply disliking Messi
Yet he was. Get on with it.
Just a note for those who think it's a conspiracy to say Maradona was that much better, I'm fairly certain I'm not alone in saying when a player comes along who is better than him outright, I'll have no hesitation in saying so.
But you can't simply anoint someone as "the greatest" because you don't know any better. That's not objective reasoning, it's base fanboyism.
And about Maadona being mythicized, when did that happen, then?
What, exactly, is mythical about Maradona?
But you can't simply anoint someone as "the greatest" because you don't know any better. That's not objective reasoning, it's base fanboyism.
And about Maadona being mythicized, when did that happen, then?
What, exactly, is mythical about Maradona?
Unless you understand how good Pele was. You can never grasp why Messi is simply not in Maradona's league. For Maradona is the only player to ever make people even reconsider Pele's position as numero uno seriously.
I think you jumped the gun here. I didn't say who I thought was better one way or the other. I just said it is hard to believe Maradona could have been much better.
The bit I said about perception also had nothing to do with either Messi or Maradona specifically, it was a generalization suggesting the media likes to sensationalize (obviously). It was just saying people should observe things themselves and they need to observe enough of the subject over a long enough period of time, not just a few moments in a career, to really form an educated opinion.
Since I was like 3-7 or so during Maradona's absolute prime, I am not likely to go back and watch game after game of his from the early and mid 80's. That means I cannot say Messi or Maradona is best because then I'd be talking out my ass.
All I said is, it would be unbelievable if Maradona was better because Messi is so unbelievably good.
Saw them both in their prime and my opinion is that Maradona is better. He won the league twice with a relegation battling side in Napoli and at that time, Italy was the best league in the world by quite some way. It's the equivalent of putting Messi in Fullham's side and asking him to win the league. Could he do it? I doubt it.
Saying Messi couldn't take Fulham or Grenada to first position isnt evidence he's inferior to Maradona. The top clubs of today have a monopoly of the best players to an unprecedented extent, which makes that comparison invalid.
You mentioned PR influencing perceptions and I just mentioned Maradona has probably had the worst PR ever so whatever influence there's been has been negative.You mentioned the unbelievable stats and I just offered a different take on the stats which gives more transparency as to how much of that is Barca being ubelievable regardless of Messi.
It was a fair post (bar the bit on people being asses). I was just commenting on some of the points.
Actually, they had that monopoly back in the 80s also, especially in Italy so no it doesn't. Just an FYI, AC Milan were the Chelsea/Man City of that league. A super-rich billionnaire owner tried to buy the league and bought the likes of Van Basten and Guillet. That's the team Maradona beat twice to win the Scudetto. I'd say that makes the comparison pretty close to the modern day situation in the PL. Other than that, Juve correspond to United. And the other big teams were much stronger back in that day. The Italian league was by far and away the most difficult league to win in the 80s and had the best players in the world playing in it the same way the PL has now.
You mentioned the unbelievable stats and I just offered a different take on the stats which gives more transparency as to how much of that is Barca being ubelievable regardless of Messi.
It was a fair post (bar the bit on people being asses). I was just commenting on some of the points.
Exactly, the only thing you could say is that Messi has the better temperament which is part of being a good player (I guess). It means that he may be less likely to fall prey to the partying and drugs that dogged Maradona's career.
Christ, we've covered all this. Messi and his stats are on the good side of that monopoly, Maradona never was. I would happily point out that Messi couldn't do for Napoli what Maradona did, but most of you seem to have been born later which is why we resort to the Granadas and Fulham's of this world.
Granada may be far-fetched, both because they are horrendous and because the top side is on a different planet. Fulham isn't though.
The difference between Juve and Napoli when Maradona went to Italy was probably even greater than the one between City and Fulham last season. Personally, I would say it's more Sunderland we are talking about. Tricky away, uninspiring, less volatile in their performances, etc.
City may hoard all the players they want but they don't have a WC-winning backline, nor do they have a three-times Ballon d'Or and league top scorer like Platini. That is leaving out Boniek, Tardelli, Rossi, etc.
Within two years he had them where Arsenal/Chelsea have been recently (could still mathematically win the league in April type scenario). The only other notable reinforcement in those years was Giordano -who you probably never heard of, but he was quite good in fairness- and the other noteable players were a teenage Ciro Ferrara, Di Napoli and Carnevale (all yet to be capped). Maradona carried on where he left off in Mexico and won Napoli their first title pretty much on his own. Seriously. The quality gap in the rest of the squad really was enormous. At this point it is that without Maradona they were probably Fulham.
It was only then, over the next three years, that they did start reinforcing more (although Alemao was no Rijkaard, and Careca was no van Basten), the three mentioned above became Italy internationals (squad level) and a certain Gianfranco Zola started coming through. Through that period they were Manchester United, coming first or second consistently, while their Maradona-less squad was probably Newcastle, but not Spurs. Although I would have to point out by then equating Milan to City would be ridiculous. They were Barca.
Then Maradona failed a drugs test, left, and they immediately dropped to midtable and started their decline towards relegation once again.
Something I would consider if I were signing him, not when determining who is the best
Messi needs to turn it up for Argentina, if he's to be mentioned in the same breath as Diego. Another anonymous performance by all accounts.
he was a game away from being the first Argie to score in 8 consecutive games
Been in red hot form for club and country
Been in red hot form for club and country
Come on, that's a bit misleading. In 80/81 they finished 3rd, in 81/82 they finished 4th. They had a couple of seasons where they finished 9th and 12th after that, just a couple of points above the relegation zone, but they weren't perennial relegation battlers. In 91/92 they finished 4th without him, in 93/94 and 94/95 they finished 5th and 6th. Seems to me they were much more Everton/Atletico than Fulham/Granada. He came at a time when Ferrara/Baiano were breaking through, along with Bagni and Bertoni being brought in along with Maradona so the team was improving outside of Maradona.
ITT: People talking out of their arses because they have seen five to ten games featuring Maradona and Pele.
Messi is so much better than Maradona or Pele it's not even funny.
Messi is so much better than Maradona or Pele it's not even funny.
Not everyone on here is under the age of 30.
Or you could be Brwned, who downloads and watches every match in the history of televised footiball.
Almost nobody saw Pele and Maradona play on a regular basis unless you were a regular match going fan in Brazil in the 50s or in Naples in the 80s.
So how can you say Messi's better than Maradona/Pele if you're saying you can't judge them because there's not enough footage?
These people that grew up watching and idolising Maradona, telling everyone he's the best player they've ever seen...their opinion is now invalid because they haven't seen enough of him to comment?
These people that grew up watching and idolising Maradona, telling everyone he's the best player they've ever seen...their opinion is now invalid because they haven't seen enough of him to comment?
Anyone want to make a list of top 3 or top 5 Maradona performances? They can be club or international matches - I just want to be able (hopefully) to check them out. I read Jimmy Burns' book on him which gave a good insight into what a troubled character he was but haven't actually seen any full matches that he's been involved in, just YouTube clips here and there.
Due to the cynical, defensive nature of Serie A back then he could go through long periods of simply being kicked out of the game, so in that sense I think it's generally better to watch him in Mexico '86. You could watch him in any one of those games really but Uruguay and Belgium were probably his best. Something that's often forgotten is that Maradona was advised by the national team doctor to have knee surgery before the tournament, he declined, and the rest is history as they say. If you need a couple of club games then:
Juventus v Napoli 85/86 - towers over the likes of Laudrup and Platini in the second half.
Napoli v Roma 89/90 - gives you an idea of the amount of fouls he had to put up with.
Dortmund v Barca '83
Juventus v Napoli 85/86 - towers over the likes of Laudrup and Platini in the second half.
Napoli v Roma 89/90 - gives you an idea of the amount of fouls he had to put up with.
Dortmund v Barca '83
I grew up watching Maradona too. Our opinion is invalid. Yes.
BTW: Football has evolved since 1986. It's a much faster, much more powerful, much more skilled sport with much more games per season. Messi plays on a completely different level than Maradona or Pele could ever have dreamed of.
I have no problem if someone says Messi>Maradona.
But Messi is so much better than Maradona?
That's a first.
It's retarded