Mesut Özil

Back in the day every team played 424 and had two conventional wingers (probably one right-footed and left-footed) who stayed wide and high.
When 442 arrived most teams dropped at least one winger for a midfielder and expected more traditional midfield work from the other.
With 4321 many teams have dispensed with pure wingers altogether wanting more involvement and productivity.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Because formations now are relying on the front players playing more narrow, requiring more technical ability in tighter spaces.

The width is mainly from fullbacks where as a few years back traditional wingers were the norm.
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You're talking about this as if it's some revolutionary discovery from the last 5 years. In the four CL finals either side of our win in '99 none of the (Spanish, French or German) teams played with wingers, they all relied on width from their fullbacks and at least one team used out and out wingbacks on each occasion. I don't disagree that traditional wingers are less fashionable at the moment but that has been true at various points over the years, yet they're still here. You have people now that are getting caught up in all the hype of "modern" football and all its wonders that there's this idea that the football has become so technical and sophisticated that there is no longer a place in the game for these types of players. Balderdash.
 
Brwned said:
You're talking about this as if it's some revolutionary discovery from the last 5 years. In the four CL finals either side of our win in '99 none of the (Spanish, French or German) teams played with wingers, they all relied on width from their fullbacks and at least one team used out and out wingbacks on each occasion. I don't disagree that traditional wingers are less fashionable at the moment but that has been true at various points over the years, yet they're still here. You have people now that are getting caught up in all the hype of "modern" football and all its wonders that there's this idea that the football has become so technical and sophisticated that there is no longer a place in the game for these types of players. Balderdash.
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Everything in this world is recycled and when it re-appears at the fore it's brand new, it's evident in fashion even and many other walks of life.

Reminded me of people thinking the idea of attacking full backs in the early 90's was revolutionary, however 20 years before a Dutch Total Football team would have something to say about that...
 
Balu said:
Which is a bit surprising though, credit to him or the manager or whoever is responsible. Hopefully he keeps it up, I love watching him play, but there were times over the last 2 years when I thought the German nationalteam would be stronger with Kroos or Götze instead of him in the team for a few reasons, his contribution in defense was one of them. I would love it to be proven wrong, because at his best he's imo the most enjoyable player to watch right now.

I love how Wenger uses him though, I always thought he was limited to being a feeder for Ronaldo at Real instead of using him to his full strength. His best performances were always with the nationalteam, especially with Müller and Klose as a triangle with brilliant off the ball movement and selfless play by all involved. His first half yesterday was better than any game I can think of in a Madrid shirt and I'm sure there's more to come.
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Unfortunately for Ozil when you have someone like C.Ronaldo in the team you have to play second fiddle to him. He isn't the first top class player who has had to suffer as some Man Utd fans will tell you!

When he joined us Wenger told him exactly what he wanted to hear, he has taken a step down to join us but I think he deserves to have a team built around him to get the best out of him. Hopefully we will see that here and the early signs are very positive. His defensive work is a bit hit and miss but he has improved in that regard. From photos looks like Robert Pires has been working with him in training as well and guessing that might be to work on him finishing off moves and not just being the creator, that's just my own theory though!
 
Brwned said:
It can have an adverse effect too though, as we probably saw with Rooney last year. Arsenal bringing in Özil means they're pushing Cazorla out wide and I'd say that will inevitably see him fail to hit the heights of last year. Given how good Özil is that's a good trade-off, but would that be the case with Rooney?
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Agree that the dynamic is more complicated with United. Have no concerns about his fit at Arsenal though and, while Cazorla will not be as pre-eminent as last year, he has made a career out of playing as an inside-right/left and has the skillset to make it work. Wenger even shunted him into inside-left against Spurs a few weeks ago with Rosicky through the middle and that worked well enough.
 
JazzG said:
Unfortunately for Ozil when you have someone like C.Ronaldo in the team you have to play second fiddle to him. He isn't the first top class player who has had to suffer as some Man Utd fans will tell you!

When he joined us Wenger told him exactly what he wanted to hear, he has taken a step down to join us but I think he deserves to have a team built around him to get the best out of him. Hopefully we will see that here and the early signs are very positive. His defensive work is a bit hit and miss but he has improved in that regard. From photos looks like Robert Pires has been working with him in training as well and guessing that might be to work on him finishing off moves and not just being the creator, that's just my own theory though!
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Really? I hope you're right. His finishing is often so frustrating. When he moved to Real, I hoped that he'd learn something from Ronaldo, but it never really improved. I always thought it's more of a mental problem, because his technique is almost flawless and he often fecked up easy chances or made stupid decisions when he's 1on1 with the goalkeeper.
 
Balu said:
I remember Italian teams being damn successful in Europe for about 2 decades without traditional wingers providing width.
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Well yeah it's 50 years not a few years ago that traditional wingers were the singular providers of width, and someone like Roberto Donadoni married the best aspects of the traditional winger with the classic 4-4-2 wide midfielder and in Juve's 4-3-3 Alessandro Del Piero and Fab Ravanelli kept the play extremely wide.
 
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Balu said:
Really? I hope you're right. His finishing is often so frustrating. When he moved to Real, I hoped that he'd learn something from Ronaldo, but it never really improved. I always thought it's more of a mental problem, because his technique is almost flawless and he often fecked up easy chances or made stupid decisions when he's 1on1 with the goalkeeper.
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Two pics from a few days ago, separate point in the same training session Pires talking to him. Wenger in the past has worked with Hleb on finishing off moves and I know last season Pires was working with Gervinho as well to help with his composure, didn't quite work out though lol. Like I said this is just my own theory on things, could be nonsense that Pires is working on that. I do believe Wenger will work on it with Ozil though, that is one part of his game where we could see significant improvement from him. When Le Bob's legs went on him his finishing and his arrival in the box was masterful and that is how he kept his career going because physically he declined a lot after his injury in 2002. Hopefully he can pass those lessons on to Ozil, I don't think Pires has an official coaching role though. He just pops in now and again to train with the team, official club line is to keep his own fitness levels up.

Just a few days ago he was clean through against Swansea 1v1 and took the wrong option, like you I think it is mental.
 
Brwned said:
You have people now that are getting caught up in all the hype of "modern" football and all its wonders that there's this idea that the football has become so technical and sophisticated that there is no longer a place in the game for these types of players. Balderdash.
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Classic wingers just don't give you enough bangs for your buck. Take Lennon as an example, he'll have 5 good games a season, 5 shockers and 20 so-so efforts.
 
Archie Leach said:
I don't think that's necessarily true. I think you'll see Ozil and Cazorla interchange from central to wide positions fairly well. Ozil and Ramsey did it last night.
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Obviously Cazorla has shown hundreds of times in the past that he can start out wide and Özil is always going to be someone who likes drifting right across the pitch, but there's more to it than that. The play was built around Cazorla last year and he seemed to relish it, now he's just going to be part of the supporting cast in less influential position. That would be the case if we had moved Rooney out wide too.

Annihilate Now! said:
Thats a fair counter - and yes, it's definitely night/day int erms of our dressing room and there's, but I do think that - under a new manager, and a new era, seeing that the club is putting in the money to buy top class players would provide a boost even to our players - but ultimately I'm just guessing on that one, and your points could indeed be the more logical way of looking at it.

The Rooney thing is of course a massive factor, but I think we could have used Ozil out wide predominately and kept Rooney happy... As Archie said, the interchanging between Ozil and Ramsey could be what we might have been able to see with Ozil and Rooney... though actually, now I've said that, this interchanging hasn't really occured with Rooney and Kagawa, so I'm probably pipe-dreaming here.

Still - we don't actually know if Rooney is even happy at the moment! We're playing him in his prefered spot and he could still be a miserable fecker...
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I do agree that bringing in a top class player would've gotten a lot of the fans and players on his side as a sign of ambition, but in fairness he was doing that. It's just he was looking at bringing in a top class player in a position he felt really needed improving, which is fair enough really. If Kagawa doesn't kick on and/or Rooney leaves soon then it could look like a really big missed opportunity, but we'll have to see on that. Neither are out of the question. Didn't Özil say something when he first came about one of the main reasons he chose Arsenal was because he was going to play a key role in the midfield? I'm sure I remember complaints about him playing out wide for Madrid and I imagine that would've been a sticking point here. Although maybe Moyes would've been even more reluctant about the idea than the player. Who knows, but I think that would've been a factor. It's easy to forget that Rooney's not even 28 yet, so if Moyes believes he can keep him then he'll be absolutely central to the team's plans. As Jazz says I think having the team built around him is something that was very appealing to Özil .

JazzG said:
Unfortunately for Ozil when you have someone like C.Ronaldo in the team you have to play second fiddle to him. He isn't the first top class player who has had to suffer as some Man Utd fans will tell you!

When he joined us Wenger told him exactly what he wanted to hear, he has taken a step down to join us but I think he deserves to have a team built around him to get the best out of him. Hopefully we will see that here and the early signs are very positive. His defensive work is a bit hit and miss but he has improved in that regard. From photos looks like Robert Pires has been working with him in training as well and guessing that might be to work on him finishing off moves and not just being the creator, that's just my own theory though!
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His defensive work could do with improvement but if there's one thing that'd take him up another level it's his finishing. He does get into some great positions.
 
peterstorey said:
Ozil was never coming to play second fiddle to the sacred cow that is Rooney at no.10.
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I'm not convinced Rooney sees #10 as his favourite position nowadays. All the noises from both Moyes and Rooney have been about "playing up top and scoring goals". The fact van Persie got all the plaudits as the #9 seemed to leave him a bit miffed and if he was going to go to Chelsea it inevitably would've been right up top, so it seems like something may have changed there.
 
We're probably more likely to get consistency from Rooney up top. Would save a lot of trouble in fact if we kept him for that role for when Van Persie begins to decline.
 
Brwned said:
I'm not convinced Rooney sees #10 as his favourite position nowadays. All the noises from both Moyes and Rooney have been about "playing up top and scoring goals". The fact van Persie got all the plaudits as the #9 seemed to leave him a bit miffed and if he was going to go to Chelsea it inevitably would've been right up top, so it seems like something may have changed there.
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Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez as the options up top.
Ozil, Kagawa, Nani, Welbeck as the options to play in behind.

Unless we were planning to stick rigidly to an old-style 4-4-2, it would have worked well.
 
Brwned said:
I'm not convinced Rooney sees #10 as his favourite position nowadays. All the noises from both Moyes and Rooney have been about "playing up top and scoring goals". The fact van Persie got all the plaudits as the #9 seemed to leave him a bit miffed and if he was going to go to Chelsea it inevitably would've been right up top, so it seems like something may have changed there.
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That's definitely the tenor of late, which is odd since Rooney often looked frustrated doing in the No.9 role - not involved in the game for long periods, playing with back to goal etc. It's almost if he's been piqued by RvP getting all the plaudits and now wants No.9 back to show he's top banana.
 
We've no idea what goes on in Rooney's head though. He comes across as a individual that doesn't have a clue what he wants half of the time. I think he actually said that himself in an interview before when discussing his transfer request back in 2010.
 
peterstorey said:
That's definitely the tenor of late, which is odd since Rooney often looked frustrated doing in the No.9 role - not involved in the game for long periods, playing with back to goal etc. It's almost if he's been piqued by RvP getting all the plaudits and now wants No.9 back to show he's top banana.
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Yeah, kind of really seems like it unfortunately, which is strange because he had no issue playing a "team role" to accomodate Ronaldo etc.

Maybe he just doesn't get along that well with RvP. Or it's just for more money. Who knows.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez as the options up top.
Ozil, Kagawa, Nani, Welbeck as the options to play in behind.

Unless we were planning to stick rigidly to an old-style 4-4-2, it would have worked well.
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When all three of those players want to be the main man down the middle and all three are on huge wages it becomes a bit more difficult to get things working smoothly, in fairness. I doubt you'll find any fan that didn't want Özil here, but I don't think it's in any way a baffling decision from those within the club. It just means a lot of faith has been put in the players we have to step up. Rooney and Januzaj are doing that so far, Nani and Welbeck are on their way, it's only really Kagawa there's worries over. Don't you think Januzaj's place in the team would've been blocked off by Özil? Let's say he and Kagawa did kick on, don't you think a trio of Kagawa-Özil-Januzaj would be unbalanced? And of course they're all under 25.

peterstorey said:
That's definitely the tenor of late, which is odd since Rooney often looked frustrated doing in the No.9 role - not involved in the game for long periods, playing with back to goal etc. It's almost if he's been piqued by RvP getting all the plaudits and now wants No.9 back to show he's top banana.
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I thought he was just a bit pissed off about van Persie and Sir Alex's relationship which was understandable given Sir Alex was enamored with him, but it doesn't seem like it. I could understand if he wanted the glory of being United's all-time top scorer but he doesn't seem particularly excited about that when it's mentioned and it wouldn't fit in with him wanting to move to Chelsea. It does just seem like he was jealous of the adulation van Persie got from the fans.
 
As a manager, if you can't find a way to fit a top player like Ozil into your team, you're doing something wrong. Unless you're overflowing with a bunch of creative players who are already at the top of their game.
 
I would have understood us not making a move for Ozil if Rooney had signed a new contract until '16-17. The fact remains that Rooney's future is more up in the air now than ever before, given that the next 2 transfer windows are the last where he will leave for a fee (whilst his value is dwindling from maybe £35-40m in the Summer to around £30m in January to probably £20m next Summer).

Common sense in my mind would have said get rid of the 3 year older, poorer player on higher wages in Rooney and bring in Ozil. It would have been a win-win-win.
 
peterstorey said:
Classic wingers just don't give you enough bangs for your buck. Take Lennon as an example, he'll have 5 good games a season, 5 shockers and 20 so-so efforts.
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Isn't that just the difference between a good winger and a bad winger? The likes of Dzajic, Lato, Conti, Boniek, Giggs, Figo etc. are out-and-out wingers who brought a whole range of qualities to the table. Or you've got wingers like Valencia who support the midfield and defence while possessing that same ability to terrorize the opposition.
 
What's a bit odd is the assumption that Ozil would have gone to United, just like that.

He's on £200k at Arsenal. He's also coming to be our star player. United are in a state of flux right now. Plenty of reasons for which Ozil might have fancied London anyway.
 
I'm pretty sure he isn't on £200k a week, I've heard the correct figure is closer to £150k a week.
 
Brwned said:
Isn't that just the difference between a good winger and a bad winger? The likes of Dzajic, Lato, Conti, Boniek, Giggs, Figo etc. are out-and-out wingers who brought a whole range of qualities to the table. Or you've got wingers like Valencia who support the midfield and defence while possessing that same ability to terrorize the opposition.
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They're the super-super players. In the PL, who plays with classic wingers any more and what do they achieve overall?
 
alastair said:
Do you have any rock solid source for that? All the sources I've had for it place it on at least £180k.
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It was probably never disclosed and it's just going to be the same as with Rooney, getting wildly more and more inflated/deflated as the years pass by.
 
peterstorey said:
That's definitely the tenor of late, which is odd since Rooney often looked frustrated doing in the No.9 role - not involved in the game for long periods, playing with back to goal etc. It's almost if he's been piqued by RvP getting all the plaudits and now wants No.9 back to show he's top banana.
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He just wants some love.
 
Ish84045 said:
Yeah, kind of really seems like it unfortunately, which is strange because he had no issue playing a "team role" to accomodate Ronaldo etc.
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He did it then but after having been made the main man up top he might not have wanted to go back to that role again. It might of been the best thing for the team but not best for him.
 
JazzG said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...al-Madrid-in-club-record-42-million-deal.html

Nothing is rock solid but Jeremy Wilson & John Cross are two reporters very close to Arsenal so I'd tend to believe them.
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Probably a stupid question, but I'm still confused with the numbers in England when it comes to wages. Are those 140k from your link pre-tax or after tax? Because neither makes sense to me, if I compare it with the wages we pay at Bayern. If it's pre-tax and he's now the best paid player at the club, I don't understand why Arsenal have a similar total wage bill compared with Bayern. If it's after tax, well then we're clearly ripping our star players off. Ribery for example is on €10.5m/year pre-tax.

Can someone explain to me how to compare those numbers?
 
JazzG said:
He did it then but after having been made the main man up top he might not have wanted to go back to that role again. It might of been the best thing for the team but not best for him.
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Yeah, it's still funny though. Questioning our ambition the 1 year, and complaining about too much competition the next :lol:

Being left out of the Madrid match really escalated things though. It's a tough one tbh. I don't think there's many teams (if any!) capable of playing with 2 strikers up top and win the midfield battle and Rooney remains more of a striker than a "AM" IMO or at least that's what he wants as well.

So in big away matches, without a Fletcher/Park around, how to accomodate both RvP and Rooney is going to be tricky.
 
Balu said:
Probably a stupid question, but I'm still confused with the numbers in England when it comes to wages. Are those 140k from your link pre-tax or after tax? Because neither makes sense to me, if I compare it with the wages we pay at Bayern. If it's pre-tax and he's now the best paid player at the club, I don't understand why Arsenal have a similar total wage bill compared with Bayern. If it's after tax, well then we're clearly ripping our star players off. Ribery for example is on €10.5m/year pre-tax.

Can someone explain to me how to compare those numbers?
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Like Pete says it is before tax figures. Very hard to compare wage bills because each club declares them in different ways, IIRC Man Utd add some of their bonus payments into another column whereas we put it all under wages so it looked like our wage bill were similar but they aren't.

Also in England I think compared to Germany even the fringe/average players get paid a lot more, a lot more money circulating around the English games and that gets to the players.

Ish84045 said:
So in big away matches, without a Fletcher/Park around, how to accomodate both RvP and Rooney is going to be tricky.
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RvP, Rooney + Kagawa/Nani and have Carrick, Fellaini & Cleverely behind them maybe?
 
JazzG said:
RvP, Rooney + Kagawa/Nani and have Carrick, Fellaini & Cleverely behind them maybe?
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Yeah agreed, I think we're all hoping for that formation with both Nani / Kagawa / Rooney interchanging behind RvP. But in that case we need Fellaini & Carrick to be solid & at least 3 of those front 4 firing, which isn't the case.

Hopefully it clicks, like it has for the Arsenal :drool:
 
My displeasure over the ozil saga will go down massively if Janujaz signs a new contract.
 
peterstorey said:
They're the super-super players. In the PL, who plays with classic wingers any more and what do they achieve overall?
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There's no good ones in the PL at the moment and no doubt there's a shortage of them overall but you've still got Robben and Ribery at Bayern, Di Maria at Madrid, Kuba at Dortmund etc.
 
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