Michael Carrick as a first-choice player

Rozay

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Seems like it is the plan, and I have a horrible feeling that it will end badly. Carrick is obviously a fantastic player, and our only midfield option that can offer the things he does (actually, Blind can too), but at 35 - this league has shown in recent years that you can't get by in midfield when your legs have gone.

Yea, we get it, Carrick can pass the ball. But he isn't the most gifted midfielder to ever play in England, and we have seen better than him even in our own team (Giggs, Scholes, even Keane in latter years) struggle to cope with the intensity. Gerrard, also better than Carrick, had the same problems once his legs went. I've seen young teams like Spurs blow our oldies away because we can't keep up, and Pogba alongside him won't stop that happening.

I'm torn, as I feel we could really use his passing ability, but on the whole,many against common caf ideology, I don't think it's as necessary as some think. I think there is an obsession with a midfielder who can 'dictate the tempo of a game' or whatever the description is, but being able to physically dominate has proven just as successful. There was no Modric in the Makalele, Essien, Lampard midfield. City have NEVER had this sort of player since they have been a good side, but the likes of Fernandinho and Toure still blow teams away with their energy and skill.

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that we would not be better off with the slightly lesser passing range of Schneiderlein (okay, perhaps not 'slightly') in substitution for his energy, pressing and tackling ability for the majority of our games.
 
Rozay said:
Seems like it is the plan, and I have a horrible feeling that it will end badly. Carrick is obviously a fantastic player, and our only midfield option that can offer the things he does (actually, Blind can too), but at 35 - this league has shown in recent years that you can't get by in midfield when your legs have gone.

Yea, we get it, Carrick can pass the ball. But he isn't the most gifted midfielder to ever play in England, and we have seen better than him even in our own team (Giggs, Scholes, even Keane in latter years) struggle to cope with the intensity. Gerrard, also better than Carrick, had the same problems once his legs went. I've seen young teams like Spurs blow our oldies away because we can't keep up, and Pogba alongside him won't stop that happening.

I'm torn, as I feel we could really use his passing ability, but on the whole,many against common caf ideology, I don't think it's as necessary as some think. I think there is an obsession with a midfielder who can 'dictate the tempo of a game' or whatever the description is, but being able to physically dominate has proven just as successful. There was no Modric in the Makalele, Essien, Lampard midfield. City have NEVER had this sort of player since they have been a good side, but the likes of Fernandinho and Toure still blow teams away with their energy and skill.

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that we would not be better off with the slightly lesser passing range of Schneiderlein (okay, perhaps not 'slightly') in substitution for his energy, pressing and tackling ability for the majority of our games.
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Michael Carrick has been the only midfielder we've been able to rely on for years.

If we play a 4-3-3 which I hope we do, with Carrick, Pogba and another, Carrick will go on to have his best season in years imo.
 
It feels like it's going to that one season too many, where he completely falls off a cliff. There were signs last season, and we really should've replaced him by now. I hope we don't go and regret it.
 
Agreed @Bwuk

Basically we have been flogging Carrick for years. A one man midfield at times and even at that was still enough to win titles which goes to show his quality.
I think with some young legs beside him he will have a lease of life this year and really enjoy his football more than he has in a number of years i.e. when Scholes was in his pomp.
 
Rozay said:
Seems like it is the plan, and I have a horrible feeling that it will end badly. Carrick is obviously a fantastic player, and our only midfield option that can offer the things he does (actually, Blind can too), but at 35 - this league has shown in recent years that you can't get by in midfield when your legs have gone.

Yea, we get it, Carrick can pass the ball. But he isn't the most gifted midfielder to ever play in England, and we have seen better than him even in our own team (Giggs, Scholes, even Keane in latter years) struggle to cope with the intensity. Gerrard, also better than Carrick, had the same problems once his legs went. I've seen young teams like Spurs blow our oldies away because we can't keep up, and Pogba alongside him won't stop that happening.

I'm torn, as I feel we could really use his passing ability, but on the whole,many against common caf ideology, I don't think it's as necessary as some think. I think there is an obsession with a midfielder who can 'dictate the tempo of a game' or whatever the description is, but being able to physically dominate has proven just as successful. There was no Modric in the Makalele, Essien, Lampard midfield. City have NEVER had this sort of player since they have been a good side, but the likes of Fernandinho and Toure still blow teams away with their energy and skill.

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that we would not be better off with the slightly lesser passing range of Schneiderlein (okay, perhaps not 'slightly') in substitution for his energy, pressing and tackling ability for the majority of our games.
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Based on what? A short preseason? Its really early days, new manager and there will be changes and adjustments. You have jumped the gun on this assumption.
 
Bwuk said:
Michael Carrick has been the only midfielder we've been able to rely on for years.

If we play a 4-3-3 which I hope we do, with Carrick, Pogba and another, Carrick will go on to have his best season in years imo.
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I'm not convinced he was particularly reliable last season personally. Expected him to leave the club in the summer actually.

Still, on recent PL evidence, I don't expect a 35 year old midfielder to have 'his best season in years'. He's up against guys 15 years younger.
 
Bwuk said:
Michael Carrick has been the only midfielder we've been able to rely on for years.

If we play a 4-3-3 which I hope we do, with Carrick, Pogba and another, Carrick will go on to have his best season in years imo.
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Fair enough, but it doesn't look like we'll be playing a 3 man midfield, it will be 4231, surely? I just don't feel confident relying on Carrick to shield the defence, he's not fast enough to track players, he doesn't seem to enjoy going to ground and winning the ball back, amongst other things. If teams run at Carrick with pace, I don't see him being able to deal with the barrage on his own.

He could do very well with someone next to him in a 3 man midfield though, I agree.
 
Stack said:
Based on what? A short preseason? Its really early days, new manager and there will be changes and adjustments. You have jumped the gun on this assumption.
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Based on the manager's comments on his midfield.
 
I still think we're a better side with him in it.

He's not the player he was, but he can still contribute.
 
Stack said:
Based on what? A short preseason? Its really early days, new manager and there will be changes and adjustments. You have jumped the gun on this assumption.
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He said it in that interview I believe, that he had Carrick and wanted one more midfielder ahead of him (Pogba).
 
In my view, the most important aspect of his play with regards to him being a key player this season isn't necessarily his passing, it's that he's the only real holding midfielder in our whole squad. Playing Pogba means it's even more crucial to have a holding midfielder in your first 11. This is a reason why I don't understand Schweinsteiger's marginalization. He's not a 'holder' per se, but can play that role, unlike the likes of Schneiderlin and Herrera.
Mourinho has obviously taken a risk this season with regards to the holding midfield position (a big risk given the importance of this position in his likely set-up), I hope it doesn't harm us during the season and we finally get to replace Carrick next summer with someone genuinely deserving of the role.
 
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Last season we went to the Emirates with him and Bastian and were totally blown away. I know that is just one example, but despite not being as quick, Bastian is better defensively than Pogba.

Other teams have speed and energy in the middle. Carrick is fine when our superiority allows the game to be played our way. Where we play Van Gaal football and have all the ball, fine, but when we have to mix it up and players are running at us, he will struggle to keep up. I'm not sure that the fact that Morgan isn't as fancy in his passing is enough of a loss to justify.

For what it's worth, I think the spell where we had Schneiderlein and Herrera together in Midfield was our best pairing last year.
 
Bwuk said:
Michael Carrick has been the only midfielder we've been able to rely on for years.

If we play a 4-3-3 which I hope we do, with Carrick, Pogba and another, Carrick will go on to have his best season in years imo.
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Presumably Carrick will be rested in the Europe league so he may actually be in better shape this year than a couple of the previous ones... or at least I hope that's the case
 
Not to drag up the old Rooney debate, but I would feel much more comfortable with Carrick in there if we had Schneiderlein (or Herrera) in there alongside him and Pogba - although that doesn't seem an option for now anyway.
 
Might work if we have Pogba and Herrera in front so they can do most of the running for him.
 
Great player, but his time is up as a regular. Once Smalling is back in Centerback, I would like to see Blind take up that role. Basically, our team will be much more protected with a center defense midfielder who is combative, energetic and has competent technical ability....the last past excludes Fellaini and Jones somewhat..

The order should be Blind, Schneiderlin or TFM, then Carrick, Jones, or Schweinstiger.
 
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He was a statue in the double pivot last season, he needs the 3 man midfield for extra protection, I think after the Rooney problem finding an ideal partner for Pogba is our most important next step in priming this side.

As to the point that you don't need a tempo controlling CM to succeed, in the PL I agree but in the CL you need one.
 
Rozay said:
Last season we went to the Emirates with him and Bastian and were totally blown away. I know that is just one example, but despite not being as quick, Bastian is better defensively than Pogba.

Other teams have speed and energy in the middle. Carrick is fine when our superiority allows the game to be played our way. Where we play Van Gaal football and have all the ball, fine, but when we have to mix it up and players are running at us, he will struggle to keep up. I'm not sure that the fact that Morgan isn't as fancy in his passing is enough of a loss to justify.

For what it's worth, I think the spell where we had Schneiderlein and Herrera together in Midfield was our best pairing last year.
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Wasn't that the game where LvG had Schwein chasing down their back 4 but nobody backing him up?
 
Rozay said:
Based on the manager's comments on his midfield.
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I remember LVG saying things about players when he took over and they didnt pan out, seasons evolve. This really is a new start for Mourinho, he is in a learning phase with his players and team. I really wouldnt place too much emphasis on comments made at the start of a new regime at the start of a new season. Football is constantly changing as are teams and players constantly evolve.
 
Carrick needs protection which he will get in a 3 man midfield, I'm hoping Schneiderlin and Pogba will form the 3 man midfield with him and all 3 will benefit from this system.

If we do something silly like play Carrick and Pogba in a 2 man midfield then I ain't looking forward to that!!!
 
It's not an obsession to "control the tempo", it's a necessity to have a player whose off the ball movement will be good enough to protect the central channels in between the lines. Morgan gets drawn to the ball very often while Blind is too aggressive sometimes for his own good. This, sadly, leaves us relying on Carrick at 35 to do the job. If physicality was the only issue, we would have just played Fellaini there and get it over with. But it's never that simple.

In the Chelsea team you use as an example you really underestimate the footballing intelligence of Essien. Easily top 3 midfielder in the world during his peak. And Toure was good enough on the ball and at reading the game to start for the best side in the history of the game. Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Juventus and PSG have holding players and deep lying play makers and they are the best teams in the world. I think we should follow their example.
 
He's surely too old and too injury prone to be relied on every week as a first choice starter. I thought that last season - and was proved right - and now he's another year older.
 
Carrick in a Pirlo'esque role in front of the back four with a ball winner like Schneiderlin one side and a dynamo like Pogba the other works perfectly, Carrick wouldn't need to do much other than pass the ball about and dictate the tempo but we NEED to play 4-3-3.
 
As has been mentioned Carrick definitely has something to offer us this season, but it Will surely be in a limited role. He can't be expected to play week in week out. Mourinho has kept him for his experience as he trusts the old guard, but he will also manage him. 1 game a week, subbing in some starting some and being sub by 60mins or so is what I expect, not to stick through games the entire 90mins.

He still has much to give in terms of composer and dictating play, maybe it has waned a bit but he creates a calmness around him. Maybe that won't be needed so much with the arrival of Pogba, as he is able to hold his own I would think. But Carrick will give stability for Herrera and Schneiderlin if they are paired together.

That said I do think that this is his last season with us as most would expect, give him a testimonial and a good send off next year.
 
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@Rozay Herrera - Schneiderlin was alright but they played against two bad sides in Shrewsbury and Midtjylland a completely flat and out of form Arsenal and scraped by Watford with Mata's free-kick. They're a far cry from Matic - (Half-season) Fibreglass or Khedira - Alonso. Not to mention Fabregas and Alonso are top playmakers anyway. Unless we are actually switching to a three-man midfield or double defensive box-to-box like Leicester and Atletico we still need a playmaker.

Also disagree that Toure wasn't a playmaker.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
It's not an obsession to "control the tempo", it's a necessity to have a player whose off the ball movement will be good enough to protect the central channels in between the lines. Morgan gets drawn to the ball very often while Blind is too aggressive sometimes for his own good. This, sadly, leaves us relying on Carrick at 35 to do the job. If physicality was the only issue, we would have just played Fellaini there and get it over with. But it's never that simple.

In the Chelsea team you use as an example you really underestimate the footballing intelligence of Essien. Easily top 3 midfielder in the world during his peak. And Toure was good enough on the ball and at reading the game to start for the best side in the history of the game. Barcelona, Real, Bayern, Juventus and PSG have holding players and deep lying play makers and they are the best teams in the world. I think we should follow their example.
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Perhaps we should follow their example, but not to the extent that we have a man with a clapped out engine in a midfield 2 (alongside a player who has little defensive nous at that). My point is, just because the only alternative does not 'dictate the game' doesn't mean we therefore have no alternative.

And Toure and Essien had very different strengths and weaknesses to Carrick, or Verratti, Modric or whoever would count as your examples. Verratti is a pit bull for a start and can more than hold his own.

And I do think there is a bit of an obsession for game dictation, but it's just an observation I've made over a number of threads. It is one way to play in midfield, and it's great if you have a technician who can do it. I just don't think a 35 year old version is up to the job in this PL, as shown by a number of players even better than Carrick. We had years of our midfield being overrun because it had talented oldies in it. Yea, if you didn't go near them, they could stand there and spray passes all game. As Mourinho said 'my pass is amazing when there is no pressure'.

Ultimately, I would like this kind of player, I just don't think Carrick is physically up to it. Alonso was much younger and fitter when he was doing it for Liverpool. The league has changed I think.
 
It is a worry that we're going into yet another season seemingly so dependent on him.
 
He is the best option to start the season. Things may change as the season goes on but if he remains the #1 guy at the DM then Mou will have to manage the minutes. sit out of cup games/mid week games and in games where United are dominating be subbed around 60 minutes.
 
ADJUDICATOR said:
@Rozay Herrera - Schneiderlin was alright but they played against two bad sides in Shrewsbury and Midtjylland a completely flat and out of form Arsenal and scraped by Watford with Mata's free-kick. They're a far cry from Matic - (Half-season) Fibreglass or Khedira - Alonso. Not to mention Fabregas and Alonso are top playmakers anyway. Unless we are actually switching to a three-man midfield or double defensive box-to-box like Leicester and Atletico we still need a playmaker.

Also disagree that Toure wasn't a playmaker.
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Didn't they play Eerton away too (probably our best game)? I'm not saying they are special anyway, Pogba has rightly come to improve it.

And Toure was no Modric or Carrick. He was a decisive player, there to influence the outcome of a game and be a difference maker, much like Gerrard. He was no playmaker for me. City have one for the first time in Gundogan. Before that they have just favoured brute force in the middle. The playmaking stuff was left to Silva.
 
joedirt87 said:
He is the best option to start the season. Things may change as the season goes on but if he remains the #1 guy at the DM then Mou will have to manage the minutes. sit out of cup games/mid week games and in games where United are dominating be subbed around 60 minutes.
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My worry is that it should be the other way around, with him playing in lesser Cup games, or being subbed ON for 20 mins.

I don't think the fact that he didn't play on a Thursday would mean he can keep up in a 2 man midfield away at Spurs or Liverpool on a Sunday. These players are just much fitter than him, and coupled with their technique, require at least energy to keep them at bay.

I don't know, we'll see what happens. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong. I just don't think history says I will, and I also think Carrick showed last season that he shouldn't be going into this one as first choice anymore.
 
Personally I think he should be out the side and replaced. People say we can put more midfielders to do the running for him, but is he a player that warrants having your midfield built around? Not for me he isn't. His age has caught up with him now, the signs were there last season and he shouldn't be our main holding midfielder now. That said, with the only other option being a massively underwhelming Schneiderlin we might not have much of a choice but to play him. But for me he is at least as past it as Rooney, if not more so.
 
Stack said:
Based on what? A short preseason? Its really early days, new manager and there will be changes and adjustments. You have jumped the gun on this assumption.
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Indeed.
A new manager will experiment and will very likely change tactics after a few games before settling on a "philosophy".
LVG started out wanting us to play attacking football. By the end of the first season, we scored 5 goals in our last 8 games (or something like that).
 
Like Rooney, he drags us down. We have all these shiny new players and look like we could make a proper go of it and then you see those two aging lads in there and it's just... eurgh.

These guys are keeping the likes of Schneiderlin, Mata, Pereira, Herrera and others out of the team. And even Blind or Fosu Mensah could easily play in Carrick's position. Mensah is a more powerful and physical too.

I don't care what anyone says, he doesn't have a place in United's Starting 11 in 2016. We need to move with the times and give other players a chance.

Imagine losing Schneiderlin cause we refused to drop a 35 year old who'll probably retire next season. Shambles.
 
he was out of contract and was given a new one. mourinho must have trusted him enough to do that and for him to do the job expected of him.
 
Prior the Pogba purchase he was still shown to be our most influential mid, the only worry is for the last year or so he's missed more games due to injury than he has done previously. All those saying he'll get protection in a 3, the theory is all well and good, but it doesn't look like Mourinho is going to go for that formation.
 
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