Arsenal will struggle next year when they have to play in Europe. They may scrape by into top 4 this year by virtue of having no european football and a favourable schedule. Next year the wheels will come off.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Said ages ago he has to be given some serious time because of the strategy Arsenal are taking and it wasn't popular, it was already decided the man is shite. Well..maybe he's not so shite after all. Nobody has any patience. It was all Emery did this, Emery did that...well who cares about Emery, he's a boring manager that plays depressing football and they took a gamble on Arteta, there was no point harping on about that water under the bridge and yet it became a very silly stick to beat Arteta with.
Young manager learning his trade, young players, transfer strategy aimed at the long game = time absolutely necessary. Even if they have a decent season it's not exactly time to get giddy, there's a long way to go to get them back playing well in Europe and an actual threat to win things. But it looks like they actually have a plan so fair play to them. It seems like they've managed to block out a fair bit of noise and they have backed Arteta.
If you're a club like Arsenal you've got to have some vision.
Young manager learning his trade, young players, transfer strategy aimed at the long game = time absolutely necessary. Even if they have a decent season it's not exactly time to get giddy, there's a long way to go to get them back playing well in Europe and an actual threat to win things. But it looks like they actually have a plan so fair play to them. It seems like they've managed to block out a fair bit of noise and they have backed Arteta.
If you're a club like Arsenal you've got to have some vision.
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Odegaard is an extremely good buy for £30m. Credit to Edu and Arteta.
Let's also see how Arse do when they go back to playing 2 times a week. It's OK when you have a week between matches but when the games are every 3-4 days it's difficult to give it your all.
People want to applaud Arteta but he's overseen some miserable stuff in his time there. I think he's lowered the standard so much that Arsenal now look good bring back to where they were at the end of Arsene's reign.
As I said before he's managed to stop losing to dross and he's cleared out a lot of trash. He might actually leave Arsenal in good shape but I don't think he's going to make Arsenal compete for the title nor finish top 4 regularly.
People want to applaud Arteta but he's overseen some miserable stuff in his time there. I think he's lowered the standard so much that Arsenal now look good bring back to where they were at the end of Arsene's reign.
As I said before he's managed to stop losing to dross and he's cleared out a lot of trash. He might actually leave Arsenal in good shape but I don't think he's going to make Arsenal compete for the title nor finish top 4 regularly.
No argument here. If he can do that he will be tier 1 manager/head coach in line with Klopp with the resource Arsenal has compared with Man City, United and Chelsea.
Arsenal have spent about 575m since 2017/2018. United about 660.
In fact in 2 of last 3 seasons arsenal have had the highest net spend in the league
Yeah, I keep reading Man Utd is a victim of the high spending of Man City, Chelsea, Liverpool and soon Newcastle too. It must be hard for Man Utd playing catch up in transfer fee and wages with these clubs.
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What standard? I see Arsenal as much like ourselves, whatever the standards once were some time in the distant past...they no longer exist. There seems to be a constant harping back to where we both once were, but it's not Arteta that has overseen that collapse, the entire club has been on that trend.
They've become a team that flirts with the top four, is an occasional cup threat. A team that was once a top 4 shoe in but much like ourselves has seen their decline coincidence with a stronger depth in the league such that it's not automatic. That's about the height of their standard. Then you get into the detail, a team that wastes money, that is notorious for soft football, a club with off field problems, a club that has struggled to connect with its fans.
I think Arteta is the one starting at setting a standard. Not necessarily one that is hinting at immediate trophies but one that says we're not going to stockpile lazy, overpaid big name players that are an anchor on the club. One that will back youth despite the inconsistency that can arise. One that is happy to work with a speculative transfer strategy that he probably has a small say in without moaning and griping about it, which is not a given (hello Conte). One that seems to be very steadily improving players.
Whether all this becomes something tangible in the way of impressive league finishes and trophies I don't know but I don't think there ever was an Arsenal in a great situation in at least a decade. They need to build a standard to think about setting it any lower.
myth. Most arsenal fans I spoke to start of the season, most on social media platforms were adamant their squad was better than spurs and they’d be right to think that. The fact spurs sometimes line up with a midfield of skipp and winks says it all really. Also nobody rated Emerson Royal or Bryan Gil. Your greatest ever player came out last week and said you should be finishing 4th in these circumstances. I agree on the United squad being better but as routinely mentioned, theyve been such a bunch of feck ups that the opportunity is there for someone to take 4th and if Arteta can’t get it done this year, you’d seriously have to question his credentials having previously finished 8th twice.
Yup, circumstances through a season can change expectancy. We came 2nd and a good half if not more of this forum weren’t particularly enamoured by Ole even then. Had Ole been 2nd currently in touching distance for city the outlook on him would be very different to how it was finishing 2nd last season.
Also find this a bit rubbish. I'm on many forums, of which 95% said Spurs had a better squad at the start of the season and they'd finish above us. And.. what? Most people rated both those Spurs signings quite a lot.. especially more than our signings.
You seriously don't remember people mocking about how we got Spurs 2nd choice RB target in Tomiyasu??
He is going to stay long enough to become a Wenger isnt he?
Well that's a bizarre detour from what you were actually saying in the first place
schoolboy arguingcredit to them for sticking to the manager even when it’s been really really tough at times, looks like the vision they had for him is starting to come through. They could of easily sacked him and got a conte.
I love this narrative that Arsenal fans build in their heads that they do not spend.
Last 3 years net spend, United are about £294m, Arsenal are £281m. I guess if if Arsenal had the extra £12m to spend over 3 years, they'd be competing with City/ Chelsea.
Nobody said we don't spend. It's how we're spending so not sure what narrative you're saying. This window gone we spent a lot of money on players who in reality won't peak for a few years with the aim of them developing at Arsenal. Nobody expected instant success.
Besides, there's many factors to spend. Look at the Varane vs White debate. Varane costs £110m over his contract with barely any resale value. White costs £75m over his contract, with a high resale value potential. Yet your net spend will only look at White cost more than Varane.
Looking at net spend alone is pretty daft really. Not to mention we just haven't had any real assets to sell.
Oh you want to look at resale value? There is no re-sale value if you take it on history where Arsenal players run their contracts down.
Also, Varane is a bigger commercial player than Ben White, if you want to look into that detail.
I was just referring to the poster who stated that If Arsenal had same resources.
I mean if Arsenal don't have ability to generate sales, they shouldn't look at other clubs like Chelsea saying they have more resources. Chelsea had a net spend of 0 last summer because they sold players and then they can spend £100m on a player.
Not entirely against you on that, we need to get much better at selling players, we seem to be piss poor at it.
You can look at the contract running down theme but seems to just be a theme across every side now and will probably only get worse.
It's silly to say we haven't had resources, so anyone who said that I agree is a bit wrong. But, equally people who just say on Arsenal spent loads of money in the summer they should be in the top 4, that's pretty daft too. We spent money on trying to build the squad for the future, not really right now.
You can look at the contract running down theme but seems to just be a theme across every side now and will probably only get worse.
It's silly to say we haven't had resources, so anyone who said that I agree is a bit wrong. But, equally people who just say on Arsenal spent loads of money in the summer they should be in the top 4, that's pretty daft too. We spent money on trying to build the squad for the future, not really right now.
Arsenal fans are saying we've spent a fair bit, but have spent it poorly previous years.
We are also saying that we have changed strategy, to buy younger hungrier players who have still to reach their peak, as the strategy of buying older players for big money on big contracts evidently wasn't working, either in terms of product on the pitch and also to try and run a self sustaining model as we end up hoarding players with no resale value.
Don't think anyone is disagreeing with your points but at least on the face of it we are actively trying to do something about it.
It also wasn't "unimaginable" at all. Many pointed out that being out of Europe and having a lot more time for coaching and less games would help them and it wouldn't be unrealistic for them to challenge for top 4, on top of being the biggest spenders of the summer. It's ridiculous what people make up to suit their agenda.
Yeah ofcourse, its the same as United of a few years when we had a gungo ho approach on players, paying stupid amounts on fees and wages.
At the moment, I do not think anyone will reach City / Liverpool levels because the gap between the coaches is too much. I don't think there is a manager out there that is even close to their ability.
I was Arteta out for a long time but I'm now fully onboard the Arteta train. There's a big differences between Arteta and Ole's management. Ole was really good at the man management of the dressing room but he didn't instill a style of play. Arteta has Arsenal playing as a unit in and out of possession. Defensively we've become hard to score against. Our pressing has seen us control games in the early play. We create far more now. As a group of individuals we don't have anyone who can produce magic like a Pogba or Ronaldo or Martial or maybe Greenwood. We don't even have a proper striker. Arteta is also creating a club culture that does not accept low standards. He's basically done a Fergie/Guardiola and booted out anyone who's a trouble maker. The only people left are those with the highest standards and are playing for the manager. The club culture at Arsenal has been soft for a long time and in Wenger's later years it was described as a 'holiday camp'. United have had the same problem, just recently your players leaking that they don't like the training. At the moment it feels like the players will run through walls through the manager.
Also bare in mind the mess Arteta took over. The club was mid-table when he took over and was conceeding 30 shots per game against the likes of Watford. The squad he took over was dire and full of flops and ageing strikers who would be well past their best by the time his first full season started. That's currently still the case and if he makes top 4 without a decent striker that's testiment to his methods working.
That bit in bold is spectacularly wrong. Arteta has been fortunate enough to inherit Saka and ESR, who are comfortably as good as Rashford/Greenwood and neither of whom seem intent on wasting their talent with a lack of application, or being a vile human being.
Odegaard is clearly a far better player than Martial and as for “not even having a proper striker” the striker that Arteta drove out of your club would be an instant upgrade on our geriatric pair, as we can see from his immediate impact at Barca. Lacazette would also improve us a lot, even though he’s not scoring many goals.
As for Pogba, I don’t know how you can hang out on this website and not be aware what a poisoned chalice he’s been for every United manager he’s worked with.
I agree that Arsenal have a recognisable style of play under Arteta but I’m not buying into this “cultural reboot” crap any more than I did when people said the same thing about Ole. Arsenal have a better squad now than they did before, which is to be expected after a MASSIVE spending spree. Arteta has to crack top four this season with this squad of players, no European football to think about and with your rivals all in the shit. He won’t get a better chance again. The fact he isn’t already comfortably ahead speaks volumes.
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I'm not Arteta's biggest fan, and I wanted him binned after last season (in fact by Christmas).
I think Ole and Arteta are quite the opposite when it comes to their "cultural reset."
Ole seemingly wanted to be everyone's friend, and it could come across as being weak at times. Whereas Arteta is (too) ruthless. It's either his way or you're out, no questions asked. This can come across as him being a kn*b - especially when you've proven absolutely nothing as a manager as yet.
I wish Arteta was a mix of the two, as we have lost two players in particular due to his hard-headedness that would be really helpful for this top four push - both PEA and Guendouzi. Admittedly PEA wasn't playing well, but when your other options are Laca and Eddie then it's surely a no-brainer keeping PEA for the rest of the season? Even as a back-up.
It's 2022 and we still have El-Neny at the club AND he's essentially 4th choice at the moment. That is unbelievable. Guendouzi is so much more talented and could play multiple midfield roles.
I fear we may lose Saliba too due to Arteta being a totalitarian. This kid looks like a star CB in the making and he may leave without ever being given a chance at the club.
If only Arteta would not be so hard headed and work with those last three, then we would be in a better place in the immediate future, and a much better place in the long-term future.
Our squad is way too thin.
Players you'd want to carry into next season:
CF - None
LW/RW - Saka, ESR, Martinelli, Pepe
AM - Ødegaard
CM - Partey, Lokonga + maybe Xhaka
LB - Tierney, Tavares
RB - Tomiyasu
CB - Gabriel, White, Saliba (hopefully) + maybe Holding
GK - Ramsdale
We still need:
- two forwards
- at least one starting quality CM
- a backup RB
- another CB if the relationship with Saliba is ruined
- a backup GK if that random American lad isn't ready
Maybe AMN and Guendouzi return from loan, though I think their papers are stamped. And will hopefully see Patino (CM), Omari Hutchinson (wing) and Balogun (CF) get some time in the senior side.
But really there is still a lot more work to be done with the squad. Especially if we are playing in Europe.
I mean he's the US number 1, i'm sure he's ready to be our backup or at least that's the aim.
We have RB in the academy who is impressing on loan, so we might wait on that one.
2xST and DM are main ones. I think Saliba will have a role next season.
I don't rate Arteta or the work he is doing with Arsenal it's eerily similar to what was Sold to United fans Under Solskjaer ,but if they get top 4 and also hit 70 points marks this season he would have done done fantastic job for this season without reading too much into it for their future prospects .
Ps I don't think they will make top 4 or hit 70 points and Arteta would be sacked around 12-15 games into next season.
Ps I don't think they will make top 4 or hit 70 points and Arteta would be sacked around 12-15 games into next season.
He's managed to change the culture and he's very clear on what he wants on the pitch. I really think Vlahovic would have given that team a major boost. It's hard to find top strikers in the modern game anymore.
I strongly disagree. One of the things we all knew about Arsenal was the toxic culture around the club, it's staff, it's players and even the fans. He's managed to change that which in organizational transformation is the hardest thing to do...CULTURE CHANGE. After that, you can clearly see by the transfer window last summer that he wants a young squad and he got rid of many players who were obviously not performing over a period of time. If I were rating him thus far I would give him a 7/10 for that alone. The team is playing well, there's a togetherness in the squad that you weren't seeing for years and most importantly, he's willing to make the tough decisions for the good of the team. What I saw during yesterday's game was an Arsenal team I haven't seen in many years...conceded in a must win game early and basically applied pressure for the rest of the game and won it. These are things I usually saw in a Fergie's Man Utd team. They are definitely missing a top, clinical striker and it's clear they wanted to address that in January with their bid for Vlahovic. Who they get in the summer, I don't know but I think what Arteta managed to achieve and what Ole didn't was change the culture at the club.
This is a classic example of the knee-jerk plaudits Arteta gets every time they get a half-decent result. That was the one and only time this season they won after going behind. It’s far more typical of Arteta’s Arsenal to do the exact opposite. They’re an outlier in the wrong direction here. There are teams much further down the table with a better track record of responding well to adversity. Trying to portray last night as somehow typical of that team is fecking nuts.
The other classic knee-jerk is the “turning point” result. We saw the same bollox after they player well and lost to City (something Spurs have already surpassed since) which somehow got forgotten about when they promptly followed it up with a boring nil all against Burnley.
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Agreed. Without heavy investment next year will be a challenge (for United and Arsenal both!)
Yeah, I agree with all this. We'll see how he does but the club clearly believes that they've sorted the backup GK position. I also doubt that backup RB is much of a priority. Cedric isn't ideal by any stretch but he's not awful and both White and Saliba could also do a job there.
I am pretty confident about Saliba returning. He has been saying the right things, he fits our system well, and he hasn't made any real money in his career yet so he has a big incentive to sign a new deal with a pay rise and lock in "take care of your family for life" money.
We are playing a tactic more like 4-3-3 recently so I think we need an all action 8 more than a DM to take Xhaka's starting place and push him to a backup role. Then I'd say one striker and one forward who can play across the front line and we are in good shape.
The wild cards would be selling either Xhaka or Pepe. I think there is some chance of them going (I wouldn't mind personally) and if we did that we'd need to replace like-for-like with a CM or a winger.
We will get some money from sales this summer as well. Torreira to Fiorentina seems all but guaranteed, we'll get the small amounts from Guendouzi and Mavropanos' loan-to-buy transfers, and it looks like Bellerin and Betis are a good marriage although I bet the fee is small. Somebody will buy Leno, although again probably for a small fee. No idea about AMN.
All in all the squad management has been really good. We'll have essentially turned the entire roster over in the span of 2-3 years and if we get the recruitment right this summer we'll have a young cohort of players that can stay together for an extended 3-5 year stretch and only needs a little tweak each summer to follow rather than major surgery.
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Yeah, don't agree with the Arsenal don't spend narrative. Last nights best players were a 50m Partey, 45m Laca and a 70m Pepe.
60m Aubameyang was pretty good again, too, last night.
We didn't have room for 2 strikers and Laca is a better fit for an Arteta team.
Do you really think the likes of Ramsdale and White are good enough for you to kick on and win things? I think most of your first XI are squad player material tbh. I like Smith-Rowe, Saka and Martinelli and Odegaard is starting to look pretty decent but I don't think there's anyone who looks likely to go on to be world class really.
What on earth is wrong with Ramsdale?
This.
It's like people haven't learnt from Liverpool. People said the same thing about most their team.. yet.. look at them. Organised and all playing their roles perfectly.
People who slate White also have no clue at all and just go off hearsay. He's been our best defender this season imo. And this is a defense in which where he has played has been one of the best in the league. Yet apparently he isn't good enough. And honestly even if he isn't Saliba could be.
Ramsdale is a fantastic keeper, but time will tell if he keeps it up.
Saka and ESR are good young talents that in my view are players good in a functioning system that great players in their own right. They had poor end product for a long time. I think if they went to a better team than us they'd flop. In the last 5 months they are seemingly improving on their end product but it's more team goals rather than winning a match on their own. I tend to think Bruno, Pogba, CR7 and to a lesser extent Greenwood/Rashford are better match winners who can make something out of nothing. Ofcourse you have the huge talent of Sancho too, who's had a difficult start.
I imagine Pogba is an Ozil type of player who needs licence to roam in a fairly free role and not have too many defensive responsibilities. I think he wants to drift into space, run past a player or 2 and pick a pass and hit and reset without messing about with midfield tracking back and building off passes from the centre back. I suspect part of United's problem is pairing Pogba with Bruno because neither does enough defensively. I think playing Pogba as a fixed 8 is part of your problems. I'd be curious if you think I'm right about this, or it's more nuanced than this.
As for Auba being a good striker. He hasn't been near that for the last 18 months which coincided with him signing a new contract. We also started playing far better after we dropped him because when he isn't scoring it's like playing with 10 players. It's possible Auba could be a good striker without the demands of defensive responsibility.
As for the 'massive spending spree'. We replaced Luiz with White, upgraded our goalkeeper, made a loan deal permant, bought a right back many did not rate, but a young inexperienced left back. There is a load of money spent and the players look like decent buys but it's not really game changing transfers. We've not got anyone playing for us as good Alexis, Ozil, Cazorla
Balogun had no goals in 8 games and Boro fans thinks he needs benching. Guen and AMN are pretty much guaranteed to be off
Arsenal are the most annoying fanbase ever