Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

Conor said:
The whole point is that you cannot claim that Conte coming in mid season is not a big hindrance to Spurs' overall performance this season, and then 2 pages later absolve Arteta of an average finish in his first season, because he came in mid season. It makes no sense.
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Sure. And if that is what I said, you would have a point. But I didn’t say that. You’ve just made up a point to have an argument with for reasons I’m unsure of.

You argued that had Conte been Manager of Spurs for the entirety of this season then Arsenal would not be sitting in fourth. I responded that I think we most likely would based on the gap between the teams being the same (2 points) 24 games after his appointment.

You’ve been debating this so long that the gap has actually increased to 4 points.

I then argued that Arsenal finishing 8th in 19/20 is mostly due to the fact that Arteta took over a team in the bottom half of the table after 18 games rather than his performance over the remaining 20 games. As his PPG would have landed us in 5th over the course of the season, that is a pretty reasonable conclusion.

I’m genuinely curious, which parts of that do you disagree with?
 
GoonerBear said:
To be honest, what does being an Ole actually mean? Why is he singled out as the manager that people get compared to now, almost like its some sort of insult? Ole done a very decent job for a couple of years, there's been a lot bigger names in terms of managerial appointments done a worse job the past few years, even at Utd post Fergie.

I don't get it.
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I think the comparison comes less from a direct equivalence between tangible accomplishments and more about the narrative that surrounded the two situations. Things like coming into a dire situation and instilling a "cultural reset", a holistic approach to the project. Many of the things Arteta is being lauded for are also some of the things Ole was being praised for at the peak of his time there, having the players playing with determination and tenacity, with a young average age and a promising future. With the way the two managers were treated in a different manner by the media and supporters in general, there's been a long history in this thread of comparing the two. FrankDebin's comment was joking of course, but with Ole's time ending not the way it was hoped, the comment's of "he's their Ole" is basically a prediction that the optimism is misplaced, the progress is an illusion and things will end badly.

It's a lazy comparison without much substance, but we're football supporters. It's what we do.
 
Cascarino said:
I think the comparison comes less from a direct equivalence between tangible accomplishments and more about the narrative that surrounded the two situations. Things like coming into a dire situation and instilling a "cultural reset", a holistic approach to the project. Many of the things Arteta is being lauded for are also some of the things Ole was being praised for at the peak of his time there, having the players playing with determination and tenacity, with a young average age and a promising future. With the way the two managers were treated in a different manner by the media and supporters in general, there's been a long history in this thread of comparing the two. FrankDebin's comment was joking of course, but with Ole's time ending not the way it was hoped, the comment's of "he's their Ole" is basically a prediction that the optimism is misplaced, the progress is an illusion and things will end badly.

It's a lazy comparison without much substance, but we're football supporters. It's what we do.
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Yep, I agree. He may well be “our Ole” in terms of not being able to take us to the next level. But the level of Managers is crazy next season:

1. Pep
2. Klopp
3. Tuchel
4. Arteta
5. Conte
6. ten Hag

We’re facing five clubs with vastly more experienced Managers working with stronger squads. Our recruitment, retention, coaching and in-game management will all have to be elite. Seeing as we can’t recruit a Pep, we’ll have to develop our own.

The odds are stacked against us, but I’m pleased that we’re at least trying. The alternative would be to hire an inferior version of the great Managers in this league. It’s a little bit like blooding youngsters into a team. You know you’ll pay with mistakes made and points dropped. But at least there is the chance, however small, that you may be into something.
 
Daydreamer said:
Yep, I agree. He may well be “our Ole” in terms of not being able to take us to the next level. But the level of Managers is crazy next season:

1. Pep
2. Klopp
3. Tuchel
4. Arteta
5. Conte
6. ten Hag

We’re facing five clubs with vastly more experienced Managers working with stronger squads. Our recruitment, retention, coaching and in-game management will all have to be elite. Seeing as we can’t recruit a Pep, we’ll have to develop our own.

The odds are stacked against us, but I’m pleased that we’re at least trying. The alternative would be to hire an inferior version of the great Managers in this league. It’s a little bit like blooding youngsters into a team. You know you’ll pay with mistakes made and points dropped. But at least there is the chance, however small, that you may be into something.
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Absolutely, I definitely think Arsenal supporters have good reason to be happy with the way things are going and how it's been done. The league is filled with great managers, and Pep and Klopp are basically unassailable to most of the sides within it. Arsenal have obviously settled on a way in which they think is the best approach to move forward and they've done so in a holistic manner. The summer window will be important but I think the last one was a good success and they'll be hoping to replicate it.

I've heard mixed things about how Chelsea plan to conduct their business but if the talk about a big window is true then it's going to be an interesting summer, with Manchester United planning to spend big under a new talented manager, if Conte stays at Spurs I imagine it'll be due to being promised funds to spend.
 
Abraxas said:
To be honest I think there's a bitterness among a section of our fans towards Arteta and Arsenal that's just a bit strange. People unwilling to be flexible and move beyond their initial thinking that he's a crap manager or maybe just because they're going to get top 4. Which no, isn't a trophy but isn't a forgone conclusion to reach.

What he's done is arguably what we need to do. I am hoping ETH can do things a little more convincingly as he will have the funds and the stature of the club behind him. But in terms of getting players that actually want to fight, revamping the side, trusting young players, booting out the odd non performer that is disruptive - it's what you need to do when wholesale change is needed. Also he clearly is happy to work within an overall club strategy without griping and moaning. We need an actual strategy and a manager that gets behind it.
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It's probably because of the pre-season predictions. It can't be easy to give credit to Arteta when people were predicting we'd finish mid table and United would be challenging for the title.

It's definitely odd though. There's valid criticisms of Arteta which I don't see mentioned all that often but you see way more clichés and lazy comparisons to Ole.
 
Three more games to play and we will see where we finish this season. It has been a good season regardless anyway.
 
Artety's first real test when he needs to juggle 2 games a week. It'll be interesting to see how he adjusts to European tactics, of course I expect he'll be able to beat the minnows but can he deal with the likes of Ajax, Villareal etc? Then there's the big boys as well.
 
He tried to rev up his players for the derby and got found out. I don't even think Wenger would be stupid to instruct his players to 'leave a mark'.
 
Could easily feck this up in the remaining games for all the credit he's getting at the moment. Newcastle in particular look tricky
 
Not bringing on a cb right after the red was odd
Not sure why there was so much discussion after the red
 
He's such a pseudo-manager. Tries his very best to look like the reincarnation of his lord saviour Pepus Christ but he's fecking clueless
 
He’ll never get a better chance at top 4 if they bottle this

United shite and Spurs terrible for half a season all whilst having no European competition
 
They face Newcastle and Everton after this while Spurs face Burnley and Norwich.

I want Arsenal to get 4th but if either of them are gonna drop points, you'd think it would more likely be them than Spurs.
 
Didn't fancy our chances tonight I must admit, thought we'd struggle to keep Son & Kane out & proved right.

Monday becomes a massive game and it looks like we will go into that even more depleted.
 
Arsenal having a considerably worse manager than Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Spurs can only be a good thing. Long may his reign continue. It’s not like we don’t need the help.
 
That could have been even more ugly. It was poor today from them. They may still finish top 4 but I still don't see a very good coach in him let alone a top one.
 
That was an utter disaster from Arsenal but it was about 95% a combination of Rob Holding being a moron and the referee being an utter clown and only 5% on Arteta.

From a tactical perspective, we were on top for the first 20 minutes until the referee decided to give a terrible penalty and Holding decided to lose his mind in response.

Arteta has a big job ahead of him to pick the team up and get ready for Newcastle, especially if Gabriel is hurt. I'll judge him more on what happens next then what happened tonight.
 
Powderfinger said:
That was an utter disaster from Arsenal but it was about 95% a combination of Rob Holding being a moron and the referee being an utter clown and only 5% on Arteta.

From a tactical perspective, we were on top for the first 20 minutes until the referee decided to give a terrible penalty and Holding decided to lose his mind in response.

Arteta has a big job ahead of him to pick the team up and get ready for Newcastle, especially if Gabriel is hurt. I'll judge him more on what happens next then what happened tonight.
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Holding was shocking but Arteta's in game management leaves a lot to be desired
 
Powderfinger said:
That was an utter disaster from Arsenal but it was about 95% a combination of Rob Holding being a moron and the referee being an utter clown and only 5% on Arteta.

From a tactical perspective, we were on top for the first 20 minutes until the referee decided to give a terrible penalty and Holding decided to lose his mind in response.

Arteta has a big job ahead of him to pick the team up and get ready for Newcastle, especially if Gabriel is hurt. I'll judge him more on what happens next then what happened tonight.
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It was a penalty.
 
Surely Ben White should've started? Dunno if he's been injured recently but you get the feeling an experienced manager would've hauled Holding off as his temperament was just a joke from start tonight, would be fining him as much as you're allowed to.

He should've gone full Mourinho and parked 11 behind the ball and time wasted from first minute as draw would've pretty much secured Arsenal top 4.

Now I can see them dropping points at Newcastle so think they'll miss out and he'll be under massive pressure start of next season.

It's very OGS with him.
 
Waiting for all the Arse fans on this board to tell us that 5th is above expectations and they’d be happy with Europa.
 
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