This!
Add Phil Jones' quote "We're finally understanding now what the manager wants of us"
It says it all. Let's hope Moyes carries on with this run of form. Would love to see him succeed after all that went on
Moyes So Far!
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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This!
Add Phil Jones' quote "We're finally understanding now what the manager wants of us"
It says it all. Let's hope Moyes carries on with this run of form. Would love to see him succeed after all that went on
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...n-exactly-position-Christmas-David-Moyes.html
Interesting comparisons with Martinez' reign and Moyes at Everton.
Interesting comparisons with Martinez' reign and Moyes at Everton.
Some sense, at least. History has almost been rewritten regarding how well Moyes has done at Everton.
You're saying Fergie deliberately didn't sign centre-mids to leave the way clear for his successor? The man is even cleverer than I thought.
It is probably the most biased article I have ever read. Even the Martinez photo is ridiculous.
People who are saying that Moyes didn't do a very good job at Everton are joking themselves, but it is unquestionable that Everton are playing now better than in the last 10 years. If this will continue or not is a big question though.
There's an awful lot of facts in it for the most biased article you've ever read. But I don't know how many articles you have read, so fair enough.
That's what I thought. I don't care about the article as a whole but you can't say the facts are biased, can you? Point-wise, position-wise it's an identical return to what Moyes did up to the christmas point last year. Can't deny that.
Nonsense, Ferguson could have left him with a proper midfield and it wouldn't hurt him in the slightest. Fergie himself didn't know he was going to retire at the end of 2012-13 until the last few weeks of the season, it wasn't some sort of a masterplan, he just consistently neglected the issue.
Just read the stats.
I think Everton had 7 points fewer at the same stage of last season.
Well, it is comparing them so let's see:
Let's the ignore the potential David Moyes saw in Phil Jagielka (£4million from Sheffield United), Leighton Baines (£5million from Wigan), Mikel Arteta (£2million from Real Sociedad), Tim Howard (3million from Manchester United), Sylvain Distin (£5million from Portsmouth) and Steven Pienaar (2million from Borussia Dortmund).
Shouldn't he mention also Martinez signings? Or Moyes bad signings?
It is a far cry from that ghastly Moyes era, where it was the hoof, the whole hoof and nothing but the hoof. Where Moyes was such a tactical ignoramus that he ordered only long balls and knockdowns, where Everton fans were trapped in a long-ball hell of Moyes' own creation.
By contrast, they are now treated only to tika-taka and liquid football on this exciting, new Spanish-infused adventure with Roberto Martinez.
Neither of these has nothing to do with reality. Ask any Everton fan you want and they say to you that Moyes didn't play fancy football. Go look even in the threads from the past. Martinez always played exciting football always (even though it had limited success). No-one is saying that Everton were Stoke and now they are Barca but I think it is very easy to see the differences from previous years in terms of style.
But do remember that David Moyes was working without a striker of outstanding potential such as Romelu Lukaku.
Seriously? In the same article when that 'journo' sarcastically attributed to luck Moyes's achievements now he is not recognizing that getting Lukaku was a masterstroke? FFS, Moyes had 11 years to find a good striker. If he couldn't do that and Martinez did it in two months then it's not luck (though Moyes did good with Johnson, Saha, Cahill etc).
Moyes' patience with Ross Barkley, resisting interest from Chelsea and Tottenham, and not exposing him before he was absolutely ready for the top flight, has also been overlooked.
I am not sure but weren't Everton fans last year criticizing Moyes for not giving the chances to Barkley? Not saying that Moyes has nothing to do with Barkley's emergence, but attributing it to Moyes is like attributing Januzaj's success to SAF.
Eight top 7 finishes in eleven years in charge, European football, an FA Cup Final, the total stabilisation and improvement of a club working on limited resources.
I don't think that this should be mentioned. Despite Everton occasionally went into UEFA cup/Europa League they were horrible there.
And FFS, just look at Martinez photo. He looks like a lunatic.
It is a very very biased article. It is sending to moon Moyes achievements and on the other side it is entirely not mentioning Martinez achievements. I think that it is very clear to see that Everton are doing better than in the last 10 years. As I said, the big question is that how long will this continue and if Martinez will be able to regenerate the team when the time comes, but until now he is doing a perfect job for Everton.
I was talking for the entire article, not the stats. With stats they are pretty much the same, but is this the entire story.
I remember last year when I was crucified on Caf for saying that Rodgers was doing an excellent job at Liverpool. The default answer was that they are in the same poisition as a year before. It is the same thing here. While the points haven't changed that much, the differences in their play are clear to see. Add to that, that most of the top teams are losing more points than last season, while Everton has the same. And this is on his year there.
Moyes did a great job there, but Everton needed to have a big change to go into the next level. It is too early to say that Martinez is the right person, but the first signs are very encouraging.
Why do I think of that japanese guy in UHF when he is screaming: "STOOOOOPID. YOU STOOOOOOOPID" ?
How do you think Moyes would have done last season if he had Lukaku, i.e.the benefit of a massive feckup by the sainted Mourinho.
Even in his Everton days, Moyes had never offered an attractive brand of footballer over the likes Martinez,, Rodgers, Laudrup, 'arry and heavens forbid even Calderwood or Hughton. At a marquee club he was expected to offer something better. But so far that has been the only failure, the remaining stick he gets are all byproducts.
Iam not arsed about the position in the league, winning or losing goes around in cycles, United have enough ammunition to pick up the pieces and finish the season strongly. But the brand of football has been appaling, with many top players seems to have lost interest, only drooping shoulders and downcast eyes whenever we drop points. From January to end of Feb is very crucial, as the team still do not have a starting XI, sturdy enough to cope a bumpy run or a dependable core that can be tagged, Ashley Young sneaking in again and again, clearly sums up the dilemma.
Moyes should sort out his team sheet first , gather some momentum and things should fall in place as we move closer to finish.
Iam not arsed about the position in the league, winning or losing goes around in cycles, United have enough ammunition to pick up the pieces and finish the season strongly. But the brand of football has been appaling, with many top players seems to have lost interest, only drooping shoulders and downcast eyes whenever we drop points. From January to end of Feb is very crucial, as the team still do not have a starting XI, sturdy enough to cope a bumpy run or a dependable core that can be tagged, Ashley Young sneaking in again and again, clearly sums up the dilemma.
Moyes should sort out his team sheet first , gather some momentum and things should fall in place as we move closer to finish.
Martinez' worth to Everton, like Moyes' to us, will become clear in the long run, people have been really keen to use Martinez' success as a stick to beat Moyes with and I think eventually they'll be shown up to be wrong. Say what you want about attractive football but the reason Everton have impressed playing Martinez' style is because he's inherited a very solid defensive unit from Moyes.
Realistically I doubt Everton'll finish top-4 so he'll struggle to attract anyone who'd either be a step-up or even a slide-across from Lukaku's level to replace him (surely by next season Chelsea will hold onto him?). Ultimately they'll lose players to CL clubs and the loan players back to their parent clubs and have a hard time replacing them on a budget. We'll see what Martinez is really capable of in a few years when the defence Moyes' built starts to age and he has to rebuild which'll further reduce what he can spend on attacking talent.
Realistically I doubt Everton'll finish top-4 so he'll struggle to attract anyone who'd either be a step-up or even a slide-across from Lukaku's level to replace him (surely by next season Chelsea will hold onto him?). Ultimately they'll lose players to CL clubs and the loan players back to their parent clubs and have a hard time replacing them on a budget. We'll see what Martinez is really capable of in a few years when the defence Moyes' built starts to age and he has to rebuild which'll further reduce what he can spend on attacking talent.
fecking hell, where you've been at?
Likely much better.
Yeah Everton played some really good stuff last season. Yes they played it long to Fellaini a lot but the general passing was excellent and set up a fine foundation for this season. And lakuku would no doubt have been a huge addition to them them as well.
A biased article which proves itself with facts repeatedly. Goddamn, the biased nature of the media
I agree that buying Eto'o and loaning Lukaku out was a mistake by Mourinho. He allowed his past work with Eto'o cloud his judgement rather than evaluating what's best for the club.
Also, the Daily Mail article reads like a flawed advocacy piece promoting Moyes. The author lists a lot of similar numbers between Moyes and Martinez, but doesn't take into account that Everton's league position this year is more impressive given that the top four have improved significantly from last year - particularly Arsenal, City, and Liverpool - which makes the overall strength of the league more competitive this year than last year when one team walked the league.
A biased article which proves itself with facts repeatedly. Goddamn, the biased nature of the media
Yep, mentioning selective stats, praising Moyes for things he has done and not doing the same for Martinez is biased.
Read my post above, when I explained it carefully the parts which were completely biased.
A biased article which proves itself with facts repeatedly. Goddamn, the biased nature of the media
It says Eveton were in the same position last season and singles out games against top teams to prove they did equally well when they are now sitting on 34 points from 17 games while last season they only had 27 points - it's a significant difference which could go on to prove crucial in terms of top 4 battle. 7 points over 17 games is a lot. The article doesn't even mention that, it uses selective stats to prove that Moyes' Everton did equally well when they didn't.
They were alright last season (it was actually the only season when Everton were actually fairly exciting to watch) but I get the feeling that Martinez has taken them a step higher. It worked into his favour that Moyes had left him a solid foundation in defence, something Martinez wasn't able to build at Wigan which ended up with relegation. Offensively Martinez sides have always been good to watch and reasonably efficient.
And I think it's fair to assume they'll finish this season with more than 63 points seeing as they already have 34 out of 51 with 63 still to play for.
To be completely honest I found Wigan under Martinez mostly a completely disorganized, fragile team. And they never excited me going forward although some people say they were good in that aspect.
I also think Moyes would have played different football if he had Lukaku up top instead of Anichebe or Jelavic. Barry, McCarthy are good additions too if you want to play on the deck.
I also think Moyes would have played different football if he had Lukaku up top instead of Anichebe or Jelavic. Barry, McCarthy are good additions too if you want to play on the deck.
Having watched Wigan a lot I'd say they played very good stuff under Martinez. Martinez' biggest problem at Wigan was finding the right striker to convert their good play into goals. Safe to say he didn't do very well in that regard. Boselli, Scotland, Sammon, Crusat, Di Santo are all pretty much outright failures and only Kone could be termed as a success.
Which is why his real test will be replacing Lukaku. Getting a striker of his caliber on will not happen every season.
And I'd say that Wigan played the most dull and boring football you could imagine, I always wished them and Bolton to be relegated because they were so fecking annoying to watch. They always did step it up in the second part of the season though.
That's right, he obviously couldn't afford top half of the table type players, but he certainly tried to get Wigan to play football. A good choice of manager by Everton. Why people are trying to talk down either Moyes or Martinez in this thread surprises me, they both did well at their previous clubs, which is why their new ones wanted them of course.
Di Santo was a good player for them. There was a period when a lot of people (including me) thought he could make a step up to a bigger side (he did go to Werder Bremen but hasn't impressed there so far).
It was far from boring and usually towards the end of season they'd become a top half side. Each to their own I guess but I find it difficult to understand how anyone could call that Wigan team boring.
Wigan were relegated.
I repeat, Wigan were relegated.
I guess being relegated isn't boring though.
Maybe all this Martinez is God stuff should go to its own thread? Or else it gives the impression of just being another point of attack for the Moyes Out! brigade.
Di Santo worked very hard but ultimately was very rarely productive. Was no surprise that when McManaman was ready Di Santo was benched immediately.
In their last season yes, also they won a big trophy the same season. With the sort of resources they had it was good enough to stay in the league for as long as they did IMO. Of course it's never acceptable to have your team relegated though and if it hadn't been for the FA Cup win the final judgement on Martinez time there might be different.
Most of this discussion regards the article posted above which questions the fact that Everton have done better under Martinez this season than under Moyes last season. It's inevitable people will talk about borh Martinez and Moyes.
Same way I would call Spurs at home boring right now, didn't fancy them at all. Only good thing ( for me, of course ) was that usually Wigan were 3 points guarantee for us.
What a ridiculous comparison.
1. Last year against those six teams Everton had 5 Home games and 1 Away - this year 3 home 3 away.
2. United may not be the same last year, but the squad/team is pretty much the same, the only difference is - Moyes.
3. Tottenham are certainly much worse in comparison to last year, but that is not mentioned of course.
4. In Moyes reign, he has never won at OT.
5. Everton this year after 17 games - 34 points, +13 GD. Everton last year after 17 games - 27 points +7GD
6. Everton in the second half of the season when they had 5 away games against the aforementioned rivals under Moyes 6 points out of 18.
7. if we compare it game to game against rivals Everton is +2 in terms of points under Martinez
They didn't have Lukaku, but they had Fellaini, not to mention that credit is for Martinez who managed to bring in Barry, Lukaku and the else. Also Baines(one of their best players) last year played the full 38 games, this year so far has been injured for great part of those 17 matches.
All in all very biased article.
Not to mention that they play better football now.
PS:
not to mention that Everton have 2 home games in the Christmas period - one against Sunderland and one against Soton. 2 very winnable games and with City, Chelsea and Pool playing against each other and Arse having 2 away games, they may even top the league, come new year.
Except one time when it cost us a fecking title! (and it turned out they didn't even need the points)
I always thought that Everton played some decent stuff under Moyes, with their best attribute being the ability to mix it up - very similar to SAF's sides of the past.
They could play a direct, physical match, making it tough for sides or they could play some exciting stuff on the ground - using width., where the only difference with United was Moyes always used narrow "wingers", as opposed to SAF's favored touch line huggers.
Martinez has done great in the loan market tbf, yet he's also benefitted from a very solid Moyes foundation (Howard, Distin, Jagielka, Baines, Pienaar, Mirallas, Osman) - & 2 much improving youngsters in Barkley & Coleman. Lukaku, Delufeou, Barry & McCarthy were good additions though.
Martinez's first big test is going to be replacing Lukaku & 1 or 2 defenders nearing the end/leaving. I think if Moyes had a striker of that calibre at Everton they'd have amassed an extra 5-10 points easily.
It's as silly dismissing Moyes' Everton as it is dismissing Martinez' positive influence since taking over.
They could play a direct, physical match, making it tough for sides or they could play some exciting stuff on the ground - using width., where the only difference with United was Moyes always used narrow "wingers", as opposed to SAF's favored touch line huggers.
Martinez has done great in the loan market tbf, yet he's also benefitted from a very solid Moyes foundation (Howard, Distin, Jagielka, Baines, Pienaar, Mirallas, Osman) - & 2 much improving youngsters in Barkley & Coleman. Lukaku, Delufeou, Barry & McCarthy were good additions though.
Martinez's first big test is going to be replacing Lukaku & 1 or 2 defenders nearing the end/leaving. I think if Moyes had a striker of that calibre at Everton they'd have amassed an extra 5-10 points easily.
It's as silly dismissing Moyes' Everton as it is dismissing Martinez' positive influence since taking over.
Each to their own as you say. I liked them so I did watch a fair bit of them just as I do now that Powell is playing for them. And for me, they were as boring, uninspiring and poor as a unit as they get. More often than not, because obviously they had decent short spells here and there.
Of course it is. I don't think Martinez would be able to build a defensive unit as solid as this one without already inheriting it from Moyes for instance and much of their success up front is also based on players brought by Moyes.
Moyes had 11 years to get a good forward too. In fact he did have a few - Saha, Yakubu and Jelavic all had periods when they were good for Everton and Johnson was good for most of his spell there. They always missed one or two ingredients which kept them from making a step up.
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