According to Sky Bet, Moyes is the 6th favourite to be sacked next
I wouldnt mind if that would mean bringing a certain director back to management.
Moyes So Far!
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I wouldnt mind if that would mean bringing a certain director back to management.
Just as it'd be ridiculous to have them finish 5th.
People seriously underestimate the quality of this side if they think that finishing outside top 4 would be in any way acceptable.
Again with the airbrushing...
I seem to remember beating QPR at OT two seasons ago in similarly laborious fashion. They parked the bus, Young won a contentious penalty, QPR had a man sent off, we scored from the spot, but only managed to secure an underwhelming 2-0 win.
The manager was none other than Fergie!
When clubs change manager regularly, from top to bottom, they become used to flux. It's clearly a different situation when United change their manager, given it hadn't happened in 27 years! I'd say the disruption caused by our managerial change is pretty much unprecedented at this level of the game. SAF is as close as you'll ever get to one man being, if not bigger, at least as big as the club.
Not to mention that any comparison with the massive imbalance in resources you get in Spain is retarded. Throw in a couple of billionaire oligarchs, share the TV money a bit more fairly and managerial upheaval at the big two would have much graver implications.
Not a chance will he be sacked.
The problem with Moyes is, hes not even picking the right team, which will make fans get on his back. Constantly picking Ashley Young in the starting line up ahead of superior players doesn't help matters. He will be questionned. Ferguson could pick whatever team he wanted, people may have moaned but his position would never be questionned, Moyes doesn't have that luxury.
Losing Rene was a huge loss, he knows the club inside out, hes a great coach and was well respected for his take on the game. We've had him replaced with a couple of people from Everton, and Ryan Giggs as a player/coach. That doesn't fulfill me with optimism, but then again, neither did Mike Phelan. Our first team isn't great, but it shows what a remarkable job Ferguson did in making these players challenge and win titles even with the weaknesses we had. With the current team now, can Moyes make these same players with the same weaknesses Fergie had win the league? I'm not so sure. Best thing Moyes can do though is plug those weaknesses, like hes tried with the signing of Fellaini (who hasn't been impressive) and pick the right team then we have a good chance.
Why do people think our first team isn't great? It is, if you get correct players firing on all cylinders.
Moyes isn't exactly helping matters though. Apart from picking the wrong lineups, targeting Fellaini and Baines as two of the major transfer targets was a mistake, not saying that they are bad players, but there were alternatives available, specially for Baines. One thing you need to do when you are accused of turning your new club into your old club is to not go after players from your old club. It'd certainly have got the media off his back. In a way it's a good quality too that he didn't give a damn about the media.
A great team doesn't need to change the way it plays depending on the opposition, great teams let the oppositions worry about them, and even if they do it's not to the extent that we have needed to. A great squad gives the option to cause oppositions problems by potentially lining up in different formations to counter their threats. Ours is a great squad, not a great team.
That's the set up though, not the quality of team, we've not utilised the sheer quality these players offer for quite a while IMO. I've seen people say that our first team isn't as good as City's or Chelsea's and it's nonsense - if you can get 3 of Valencia, Nani, Kagawa, Rooney and Welbeck on top form behind Van Persie it's an amazing side that could match any team on their day. It doesn't work when you play Young or Giggs in big games obviously so you have to work your way around limitations they bring to the table.
We are as good as any side in England, it's continental football that I'm talking about, and for a side to be considered great, they have to make a mark on Europe.
Yeah, we are miles behind Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid if we're talking about pure quality of the team, that I agree with. We could handle Barca and Madrid on our day (not with the recent set up though), we'd lose 10 out of 10 finals on neutral ground against Munich mind. Go out with Young and the same attitude we showed against City and we're shipping 5-7 goals against any of them.
Finish outside the top four with this team then he should be sacked.
Because, to begin with, our defence isn't great at all. One of the biggest myths on the caf is that we have a great defence. Rio is past it, Vida is not the player he used to be, Evra and Carrick are aging as well. And their possible replacements, the likes of Evans, Smalling, Jones, etc., are far from being world class at the moment. Further, our CM isn't great either. The only part of the team where we have world class quality is the attack. RvP and Rooney are great and (realtively ) consistently provide the goods. A great attack doesn't amount to a great team, obviously.
That's all true but the thread has gone in a direction where there's a debate about whether we'll finish in the top four and should it be a sackable offence if we don't. And with this squad it would be a fecking travesty of the highest proportions to not make the CL.
This is worth a read. A fair assessment IMO (although he's wrong about Evans)
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...united-is-just-not-that-enviable-8835616.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...united-is-just-not-that-enviable-8835616.html
Vidic has looked exceptional since his return, what are you talking about?!
Carrick only recently turned 32 which isn't old for a central midfielder - arguably Pirlo's best season came in his debut season at Juve and subsequent Euro 2012 when he was 32, same for Scholes in the 2006-07 season which is arguably his best with us and he was again 32, Makelele in Mourinho's Chelsea team was 32 - just a few examples but its clear to me that entering your early 30's doesn't necessitate immediate decline for a central midfielder particularly one like Carrick who relies on his brain not his physique.
Evans is very close to being world class, he's been our best defender for the past two seasons. Thought this underrating of Evans had stopped.
Even if you think our squad isn't all that (which I don't agree with), the article ignores the fact that we just had a summer transfer window to reshape it and we didn't sign anyone before deadline day.
The article is about Moyes, though. How much blame he gets for our summer transfer fumblings is up for debate. Ian Herbert obviously thinks not much.
It's the performances really that are the concern. Under Fergie it would be no surprise to lose at City and Liverpool and draw at home to Chelsea, but the way we have gone about those games just isn't us.
You thought we were consistently more impressive at the Etihad and Anfield in the last 2 or 3 seasons than we have been under Moyes?
That's not how I remember most of those games.
That's not how I remember most of those games.
I don't really think the team/squad is bad I just think at the moment and arguably last season as well we've looked for work ethic over flair and attacking ability and I'm not sure if we're really expressed ourselves in the way we can. When I think of the Villa game last season, sure we tailed off a bit but that start was something that was so rare, full of energy and intensity. We've not seen it that much in recent times.
Fair enough last season both kagawa and nani had injuries and in kagawa's case was trying to bed in to a new league. But towards the end he was showing he was getting to grips with the league. Nani we know can perform and whilst last season was a blip it was imo much less so than Valencias/Youngs who got a lot more games. Had Nani been fit more often we may have seen a swing in his form.
Now though they're both available and both of them have the ability to add something different to the team. RVP and Rooney are our main game changers but those two with Hernandez more than have the capability to change a game.
Evans too was someone who was making great strides, on the ball and in attack he was looking a different player and his defending and aerial ability was improving. Again I think here Moyes hopefully will look to bring him in more as he's something who can bring something to the team.
Either way I can't see how a first team that can include DDG, Rafael, Evans/Vidic/Rio Evra nani kagawa carrick RVP and Rooney is a team that can't have so much going for it. There's got to be away to get them to play well together. I don't see how it would be any less defensively secure than any of the other teams in the league, none of those players are slackers.
Fair enough last season both kagawa and nani had injuries and in kagawa's case was trying to bed in to a new league. But towards the end he was showing he was getting to grips with the league. Nani we know can perform and whilst last season was a blip it was imo much less so than Valencias/Youngs who got a lot more games. Had Nani been fit more often we may have seen a swing in his form.
Now though they're both available and both of them have the ability to add something different to the team. RVP and Rooney are our main game changers but those two with Hernandez more than have the capability to change a game.
Evans too was someone who was making great strides, on the ball and in attack he was looking a different player and his defending and aerial ability was improving. Again I think here Moyes hopefully will look to bring him in more as he's something who can bring something to the team.
Either way I can't see how a first team that can include DDG, Rafael, Evans/Vidic/Rio Evra nani kagawa carrick RVP and Rooney is a team that can't have so much going for it. There's got to be away to get them to play well together. I don't see how it would be any less defensively secure than any of the other teams in the league, none of those players are slackers.
Amazing argument from an intelligent, articulate guy.
You're a great poster mate but I don't find Ian Herbert's apology either enlightening or at all convincing.
United don't have game changers? Javier Hernandez's record proves otherwise time and again, especially in the big games. When we were losing at Chelsea in the 3-3 who scored? When we were losing away at Liverpool 1-0 the same season who scored? Who scored the winner last season at Villa, at home against Newcastle? Who scored after 36 seconds in a title deciding game? Who scored the late winner against Everton, Moyes team, in 2010/11? If Herbert doesn't think Hernandez is a game changer then frankly he shouldn't be writing about football.
Then there's Nani, another game changer. Illustrated by the fact Sir Alex brought him back into the first XI for the second leg against Madrid. Illustrated by the fact when Rooney was garbage at the start of 2010/11 it was Nani who dragged us through. Illustrated by the countless times a bit of Nani magic has opened the door for us ever since. Moyes, Herbert claims, isn't convinced by Nani. Well why doesn't he give him a chance to impress? Nani did more in the second half against Liverpool than Young's managed all season but Nani isn't getting games while Young continues to disappoint.
I'm not even going to get into the subject of Shinji Kagawa who could easily be playing the role Nasri played on Sunday for City, drifting in from the outside to bolster our midfield and help us maintain controlled possession, for us.
Then there's the verdict on Johnny Evans. A player who has been getting big game experience since 2008/09 when he starred against Inter Milan. While he did have a mare of season the year after for the past two seasons Evans has barely put a foot wrong. I'm not saying Evans is the next Franco Baresi but he's no clogger who shouldn't or couldn't be trusted to play against Crystal Palace.
Frankly that article has just just convinced me that its not worth reading anything more of what Herbert writes about United.
You think Vidic was exceptional vs City? I don't think he's had any exceptional games so far. He is still very good but not world class any more, IMO. I don't share your optimism about Carrick and Evans, either. Yes, there have been playes like Pirlo and Scholes who were consistently great at Carrick's age. But they are completely different players. For instance, Carrick is big and his mobility is under question. Carrick and Fellaini in CM is a very unimpressive combo, arguably the least mobile in the Prem. I'm a fan of Evans, he is a great bloke and a very good defender. Not close to world class though, IMO.
Moyes will have to build a new defence in the following seasons. That's going to be quite difficult. For our old defence was the best in the world.
I reckon most managers with a pair of world class centre backs in their mid thirties would give their eye teeth to have three young central defenders with as much potential as Evans, Smalling and Jones already at the club.
He hasn't rotated the two aging centrebacks enough.
Starting Young when there are better options.
Starting Young and Giggs against Liverpool and then playing Giggs right wing.
Not making changes at half time during the city game.
Signing Fellaini in a panic and overpaying for him.
Not shown any tactical awareness in the way we have been set up to play - its very much 442 wing play or bust.
He just goes one from one mistake to another at the moment.
Is he lacking confidence?
Starting Young when there are better options.
Starting Young and Giggs against Liverpool and then playing Giggs right wing.
Not making changes at half time during the city game.
Signing Fellaini in a panic and overpaying for him.
Not shown any tactical awareness in the way we have been set up to play - its very much 442 wing play or bust.
He just goes one from one mistake to another at the moment.
Is he lacking confidence?
United looked nothing of the sort then, I am aware SAF had drubbings and off days, but under Fergie you could almost be certain you would win playing poorly, even going 2-0 down you could rest assured it would most likely end up 3-2. United looked a completely different animal against Palace. I don't think you should sack Moyes regardless of where he finishes, SAF himself chose him for longevity, I dont see why finishing 4th or 5th will destroy that for one season. We finished 6th two seasons ago and bounced back.
Some people in the Newbs' are suggesting that Moyes steps down, Harry Redknapp takes over, and Dave becomes his assistant.
Some people in the Newbs' are suggesting that Moyes steps down, Harry Redknapp takes over, and Dave becomes his assistant.
And just like that, the existance of the newbie system is justified.
I was talking to someone after Moyes was appointed who was disgusted with the club for appointing him.When I asked who he thought they should have got he said Redknapp.
Whilst all the doom and gloom is (typically and understandably after Sunday) overstated, most of this is factual. I can't imagine that Ferguson would have reacted to our initial run of fixtures this season by deciding it was essential that Rio played six on the bounce. The insistence on picking Young is baffling. Fellaini wouldn't have been my choice as a United player but at the moment I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. But I just don't see why we set up in a straight 4-4-2 against City away. Does Moyes really think Fellaini is able to handle Yaya in full stride? Fellaini and Carrick needed help in that midfield area and it's not surprising that our best spell in the game came after Cleverly came on - he really should have been on at half time at the latest. I know it's not good to humiliate Young by hooking him before half time but he really was being particularly atrocious and it was clear the midfield needed sorting. The other thing which was very alarming and so untypical against City was the number of players losing concentration under the pressure from City. Valencia, Smalling, Vidic, Rio, Fellaini all guilty of real schoolboy errors in defence.
There are a lot of things to be worried about. Calls for Moyes' head are pretty stupid but he needs to get to grips with this job and start to use the squad properly.
In the 4 games since the opening game in the EPL.
Chelsea 0-0
Liverpool 1-0
Palace 2-0
City - 4-1
We have not scored from open play, 2 Rooney freekicks and RVP penalty.
Young has started 3 of those games.
Chelsea 0-0
Liverpool 1-0
Palace 2-0
City - 4-1
We have not scored from open play, 2 Rooney freekicks and RVP penalty.
Young has started 3 of those games.
Off season his record was P7 W2 D2 L3
Since the start of the season including the charity shield its P7 W4 D1 L2
Victories against Wigan, Swansea, Palace, Bayer
Losses against Liverpool, City
So he's improved!
Since the start of the season including the charity shield its P7 W4 D1 L2
Victories against Wigan, Swansea, Palace, Bayer
Losses against Liverpool, City
So he's improved!
One thing that did worry me is when he said he hadn't even thought about the next game, I'm sure ferguson always said he was always thinking 2/3 games ahead.
He might have had a team in mind, but this performance has altered his thinking. He might be thinking if I pick some of that lot we will lose.
I believe the changing of the defensive guard needs to begin this season...it's the right time. Moyes needs to be pro-active in this.
No, I don't think so. You could say that he has been lacking a very offensive attitude, but that's not the same thing. I think he has been cautious, preparing for a very tough set of fixtures. He has gone with what he thought was the safest option in the matches against Chelsea, Liverpool and City.
Now the fixtures coming up are much easier. He will experiment more freely with the players he has available to him. I'm sure he has learned a great deal from the last few weeks. Some of the players he selected the other night against City were obviously not good enough to defeat a top side on form. Only Rooney looked the business in that match. He knows who he did not play in that match - and these players will now get a fair chance to shine. There's also the matter of match fitness. We can't simply ignore that the man himself has worked on the assumption that neither Nani nor Kagawa were ready to feature against City. We didn't field our strongest team, nowhere near it - and Moyes knows this. He won't keep playing Ashley Young and Valencia on principle.
Again, he played it safe. Or that is at least what he tried to do. He doesn't have to do that anymore, the first act is over - and the fact that it was no roaring success will only make it more likely that Moyes will now start picking what many of us consider to be our best XI.
Another theory is that he believes the Liverpool game is now a must win so he'll play his "big guns" and not give Nani, Kagawa, Januzaj, Evans and Hernandez a game.
And that Ian Herbert article is complete nonsense, we have the two best strikers in the league and arguably the best centre back, a fantastic central midfielder in Carrick, along with Courtois the best young goalkeeper in the world and the best young right back in the world. It may not be a particularly flashy first team, but it's a damn effective one because we're strong in the right areas. The squad is also comfortably the best in the league in terms of depth:
De Gea
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick Fellaini
Nani Rooney Kagawa
RVP
Lindegaard
Jones Smalling Evans Fabio
Cleverley Anderson
Valencia Welbeck Young
Hernandez
Giggs, Januzaj and Zaha don't even get into our 2nd 11, the depth is unbelievable. That article is the same bollocks we've been hearing for years under Sir Alex, every year it's the worst United side ever according to these journalists. The odd thing is I'd imagine the people saying it now on here in order to "defend" Moyes were probably the same people saying it was total nonsense when it was said under Ferguson. He was left the strongest squad in the league, the resounding English champions, and supposedly given unlimited funds to add to it, the fact he decided Fellaini and Baines were a top priority indicates to me that Moyes didn't think there was too much wrong with the team. We're three points off Chelsea and City after five games having already played three of the top six, it hasn't been a fantastic start but it could have gone a lot worse, and I actually think we're in pretty good shape.
That article is way off the mark as far as I am concerned, we have a damn good squad with several 'game changers' (many sat on the bench on Sunday) - it is clear that Moyes has a difficult job to follow Fergie and is trying to make some changes to our style so needs to be given some time before we can judge.
But how much time? and what should be our minimum expectations as fans?
I dont expect Moyes to be winning trophies immediately, but this squad is good enough to compete with any other domestically at the moment so there can be no excuses for not qualifying for the CL at the very least.
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