Something like "at least the referee can see the funny side of it". Wait, there's a funny side of a player being booted and the person not getting punished. May as well turn this sport into something else and laugh then.
Nani
- Thread starter Domzi
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I thought he had a good game too. His decision making was erratic at times, but he was definitely our most positive attacker and he linked well with Neville too.
Good to see some sensible and balanced posters in this thread.
He didn't get booked somehow. It was a rather odd refereeing performance. I remember one freekick against Welbeck when it was shoulder to shoulder which kinda summed the ref up.
I agree the fullback got away with far too much foul play but my gripe with Nani is that when he gets the better of the defender, which he does more than most, he doesn't deliver the final pass or cross with any consistency.
What makes him so bloody frustrating in my eyes is that he has the talent to become a top player for us but does he have the mental strength and desire to achieve it?
Strange time for this thread, but the sentiment's correct, Nani's been extremely frustrating over the last year. After his first year I was excited about him and thought he'd end up being quality but last year he was very poor, Park and an out of position Rooney were both preferred to him on the wing in all major games, and he didn't impress against anyone above Championship level. His decision making's always been shit, in his first season I thought there was room for it to be improved but two years later it still hasn't. He's still fairly young but he needs to step up and fecking do it sooner rather than later.
I always got the impression, even in his first season that when people had said he was the next Ronaldo, he thought that he was already there when he was nowhere near, and tried to do things he had no business thinking about doing. I noticed this particularly in crucial games against Barcelona and Chelsea in 2008 when he made two quality runs all the way up the pitch and took the shot on when he should have passed it, and the shots didn't even go on target. After winning the European Double that sentiment probably exploded leading to his failures last year.
I always got the impression, even in his first season that when people had said he was the next Ronaldo, he thought that he was already there when he was nowhere near, and tried to do things he had no business thinking about doing. I noticed this particularly in crucial games against Barcelona and Chelsea in 2008 when he made two quality runs all the way up the pitch and took the shot on when he should have passed it, and the shots didn't even go on target. After winning the European Double that sentiment probably exploded leading to his failures last year.
Good post there mate.
A fair point, you are never really sure what he's going to produce even when he gets himself into a good position. The thing with Nani is though, that he's capable of making a game-winning cross from just about any position. Left foot, right foot, having beat a man, from deep cutting inside, etc. And usually, usually, if he messes up from a good position he'll make up for it with a superb cross or two later on. He does deliver regularly when played, even though he has the talent to deliver far more often than he does.
I'm pretty sure there are certain players in the Prem referees love to see take a kicking and don't even bother to protect
Yup, though i'm not surprised by the negativity. Nani's always had shit thrown at him right from day 1. There are matches where that shit is justified. Today was not one of those days, he was our most dangerous and consitient player on the night. I was actually impressed that the majority of our attacking play came through him, I've always felt in the past that he seemed to drift in and out of games. But he proved me wrong today, sure his final ball was a little erratic, but what can the fella do when he's just got Owen to aim at.
I was pleased with him tonight and was my MOM.
It really was the classic Nani performance.
Gives us a good attacking thrust down the wing, forces the opposition backwards and always looks like he's just a moment from doing something genius...and then he stops, doubles back, stops, goes forward again, stops again, feints, then hits a cross into the nearest opposition player.
Extremely frustrating and difficult player to rate. Yes, he regularly ruins attacking situations because of a bad decision, but often they are situations that he created. And if he weren't there it's arguable that we wouldn't be forcing the opposition back as much as we did. So do you rate his performance as good or bad?
In many ways it's like a young Ronaldo, except the ceiling is nowhere near as high and it's less certain that he'll 'make it'.
Gives us a good attacking thrust down the wing, forces the opposition backwards and always looks like he's just a moment from doing something genius...and then he stops, doubles back, stops, goes forward again, stops again, feints, then hits a cross into the nearest opposition player.
Extremely frustrating and difficult player to rate. Yes, he regularly ruins attacking situations because of a bad decision, but often they are situations that he created. And if he weren't there it's arguable that we wouldn't be forcing the opposition back as much as we did. So do you rate his performance as good or bad?
In many ways it's like a young Ronaldo, except the ceiling is nowhere near as high and it's less certain that he'll 'make it'.
no post in the world can describe Nani's career/performances with United better than that one I feel! really accurate description.
Nailed right on!
How about starting with getting at least 1 cross past the first defender?
I must admit to being utterly gobsmacked by some of the reactions here, probably even the majority of opinions. For me, Nani's performance last night was no better than an average SWP / Lennon / Pennant performance. Plenty of speed, even some trickery, but absolutely no final product whatsoever. It wasn't that his crossing was erratic, it was totally non-existent, so many crosses just hit the first defender. Its all well and good finding the space and running into it, but if there is no final product what is the point?
To sum up Nani, he'll make about 2 out of 10 crosses look dangerous.
He'll beat his man about 3 out of 10 times but will lack the final ball.
He'll just make all those errors but pop out and score a screamer.
He needs to improve his dribbling, about five times that he tried to take on fullbacks where he just got too close to him before trying to jerk off somewhere. He's just got to fool the fullback or try something else. It's just not working. To add to that even when he doesn't go for tricks he goes for pace but just loses the cross and he'll hit the first the defender almost everytime. He's a player that needs to much space to actually be a threat unlike Ronaldo who creates his own space. He'll need to improve on that imo.
His shot is there and to be fair it has looked more accurate than a young Ronaldo.
His crossing is actually good when he has space but he has to improve when he doesn't.
That's my summary, still he needs more games and alot more training to be considered our best winger.
He'll beat his man about 3 out of 10 times but will lack the final ball.
He'll just make all those errors but pop out and score a screamer.
He needs to improve his dribbling, about five times that he tried to take on fullbacks where he just got too close to him before trying to jerk off somewhere. He's just got to fool the fullback or try something else. It's just not working. To add to that even when he doesn't go for tricks he goes for pace but just loses the cross and he'll hit the first the defender almost everytime. He's a player that needs to much space to actually be a threat unlike Ronaldo who creates his own space. He'll need to improve on that imo.
His shot is there and to be fair it has looked more accurate than a young Ronaldo.
His crossing is actually good when he has space but he has to improve when he doesn't.
That's my summary, still he needs more games and alot more training to be considered our best winger.
Modric
Bit harsh dragging Pennant into the equation but I agree with the SWP/Lennon comparison. As it happens, if we were offered to swap Nani for either of the above two players I'd take it in a heart-beat.
This doesn't mean he couldn't go on to be a better player than both of them, mind you. The thing about Nani is that there's such an enormous margin for improvement. The fact that he remains fairly effective despite constantly making bad decisions tells us a lot about how incredibly naturally talented he is as a footballer. SWP and Lennon lack a consistent final ball but their decision-making and general football intelligence is streets ahead of Nani's. This means IMO they've got less room for improvement, they're closer to making the most out of their talents than Nani is.
The reason I'd take the swap-deal, however, is that there's no guarantee Nani will ever fulfil his potential. With SWP and Lennon you've got two players who are, IMHO, already more effective as wingers than Nani is right now. A bird in the hand and all that...
With regards to Nani being the best he can be, I think Domzi's original post makes an important point. The timing of the thread was slightly odd and quickly got side-tracked into an un-winnable argument about whether he will make it at United or not but the point remains, can anyone remember a more annoying/frustrating player at the club? Because I struggle, I really do.
I also think this annoyance factor might actually be hindering his development. Fans are getting so pissed off at his self-indulgent, pointless tricks and flicks, his play-acting and his repeatedly poor decision-making that you can actually sense the antipathy towards him from the stands. When he got karate-choppped in the throat last night and reacted with his usual histrionics the response of the crowd spoke volumes. Usually a United player getting hacked down would provoke howls of indignation and dog's abuse for the referee who didn't blow up. Instead all you could hear was an embarrassed silence, a communal puffing out of the cheeks and a shared moment of "oh for feck's sake lad, will you stop that rolling now, please?"
If I can pick up on that vibe through my TV screen, it must be blatantly obvious to Nani that he's not particularly liked. This is not a good thing. He's a confidence player and I reckon that if he felt a lot more love from the stands it would fire him up to be twice the player he is today.
Which brings me back to the original question. Who was the last player to piss me off so much? The obvious answer is Cristiano Ronaldo. I don't think it's a coincidence that his breakthrough season came when he was bonded with the United fans through a common enemy, the Ingerland boo-boys. That season was all about a player firing himself to greater and greater heights bouyed by the passionate support of his own fans who backed him all the way in giving two fingers to the people who'd questioned his heart, his desire and his integrity. Goes without saying that Ronaldo is/was a far better player but we neither need nor expect Nani to be as good a player, we just need him to show a similar degree of improvement.
I think it's incredibly unlikely we'll get another "winkergate" to make us fall in love with Nani, the same way we did with Ronaldo. This means there's a very real chance he'll get forced into that Kieran Richardesque vicious circle where a talented but dislikable player under-performing causes the fans to get on his back and this, in turn, causes more poor performances. I think he's a much more talented player than Richardson and some (but not all) of his performances this season give reason to be optimistic. The doubts remain though, he's made a rod for his back by the way he approaches the game and he faces an uphill struggle to win the fans over on his side. If he can achieve this though, I think he'll go from strength to strength.
So basically what I'm saying is, I hope Nani knocks England out of the world cup.
I think Nani is treated harshly on this forum as well as Old Trafford like Pogue as mentioned, I really do. I didn't see the first half last night and only saw bits of the second but by the sounds of it he had a decent game.
Every time he gets into a decent position he's not always going to be able to find that final ball, thats not possible for the majority of footballers, let alone Nani. He'll get better as he matures as a footballer like practically everything other footballer - We just have to be patient with him as fans of Man Utd.
I really like him if I'm honest. I think he's a very talented player and yes, he can sometimes be frustrating but I think that comes with most tricky players, in fact most players in general. I just don't think the fans are as tolerant towards Nani for whatever reason.
For the record, I wouldn't dream of swapping him for SWP or Lennon.
Every time he gets into a decent position he's not always going to be able to find that final ball, thats not possible for the majority of footballers, let alone Nani. He'll get better as he matures as a footballer like practically everything other footballer - We just have to be patient with him as fans of Man Utd.
I really like him if I'm honest. I think he's a very talented player and yes, he can sometimes be frustrating but I think that comes with most tricky players, in fact most players in general. I just don't think the fans are as tolerant towards Nani for whatever reason.
For the record, I wouldn't dream of swapping him for SWP or Lennon.
Standing ovation for that one Pogue.
I reckon Nani's performance last night needed an Evra and a Rooney (although Gaz was good).
He didnt have many options, if you watch the match you'll notice that.
He didnt have many options, if you watch the match you'll notice that.
No, not really. I don't think he deserves half the flack he gets from the fans.
Every player in the United team frustrates me at some point or another, I'd imagine its the same for everyone else too. I just think that Nani is different for a lot of people and I think thats unfair, which is was I was eluding to in my previous post.
I just hope he can win the fans over, although I'm not convinced he will which might be more to do with the fans than Nani himself.
We shall see.
Well, we were left with 10 people.
Nani had a superb 1st half though, still I expect more of him. He still can improve and by some fair margin. Crossing, Dribbling and awareness. Still not a finished article yet. Hope he shines from the trust SAF is giving him.
He doesn't frustrate you more than most players?
Obvioulsy, every player frustrates at times but Nani is in a league of his own when it comes to tooth-grinding irritation, for a number of different reasons.
I feel quite the same. Nani is in a league of his own when it comes to tooth-grinding irritation, for a number of different reasons
I think it's incredibly unlikely we'll get another "winkergate" to make us fall in love with Nani, the same way we did with Ronaldo. This means there's a very real chance he'll get forced into that Kieran Richardesque vicious circle where a talented but dislikable player under-performing causes the fans to get on his back and this, in turn, causes more poor performances. I think he's a much more talented player than Richardson and some (but not all) of his performances this season give reason to be optimistic. The doubts remain though, he's made a rod for his back by the way he approaches the game and he faces an uphill struggle to win the fans over on his side. If he can achieve this though, I think he'll go from strength to strength.
Brilliant post Pogue, and the above bit is a great insight, and something I'd never considered.
Hand on heart, no, he doesn't.
Infact, I get more frustrated with the more senior players generally as they should know better!
I had the most extraordinary conversation with a friend of mine who supports Spurs last week. I know Spurs fans are renowned around the country for being an especially delluded bunch, in terms of their prodigous levels of optimism in the face of an overwhelming dearth of evidence, but this conversation took the biscuit.
It centred on Lennon. My mate reckons he will be England's most important player during the World Cup. More effective than Rooney or Gerrard. But he went further. He said when we are old, looking back on this period for football, we will remember Lennon in the same category as we remember Gazza. As the outstanding footballer of his generation and (icing on the cake, this bit), the man who, more than anyone, won us the World Cup.
You have to laugh.
You're not friends with GlastonSpur by any chance?
If he is, he has never admitted as much to me. My experience is such idiocy is widespread, if not quite ubiquitous, among Spurs fans though.
Top post there Pogue, me ol' Irish pal. The point you made about Kieran Richardson is interesting actually. From where I stand in the stadium, I don't think I've ever heard one positive comment about. He's one of those characters you find it really difficult to like, be it through his play acting or frustrating play. I have no qualms if the players a cnut, as long as he delivers on the pitch.
Didn`t see last nights game so can`t comment. However every game Nani has featured in this season (other than last night evidently) he has played extremely well. Brings much MUCH more to the team than the limited Park who if you want an object lesson on how to hit the first man with a cross you need look no further.
Nani didn`t feature enough last season to warrant the kind of criticism he receives on these boards. Personally I believe one minute of brilliance is worth 90 of dross. Nani is capable of producing breathtaking skill & should be given a proper run.
Its a tired argument & United fans are always going to be polarised on this one.
Nani didn`t feature enough last season to warrant the kind of criticism he receives on these boards. Personally I believe one minute of brilliance is worth 90 of dross. Nani is capable of producing breathtaking skill & should be given a proper run.
Its a tired argument & United fans are always going to be polarised on this one.
Oh he was by a country mile our biggest threat last night. The frustrating thing is how he can do something so brilliant and then something so pants straight after, negating the usefulness of his first bit of brilliance. The guy has truly breathtaking skill. But so often it all comes to nought. I think that is what has held back my praise.
But seriously, almost everything good we did, he had something to do with it, and more often than not it was him actually doing it.
This saying
needs to stop, he has it or he doesn't
needs to stop, he has it or he doesn't
That's not true though, is it?
We don't know if he has it yet. He has the ability, whether he knows how to apply it well enough is another thing.
We don't know if he has it yet. He has the ability, whether he knows how to apply it well enough is another thing.
When people say Nani has the ability, what do they mean? Does it mean they see flashes of a World beater?
You're sounding a bit like Scholesy there.
To be fair, he's no Modric.
"World beater" is an impossibly vague target to aim for.
I think we all see flashes of a player who is plenty good enough for Manchester United. Which is the main thing.
He clearly needs to produce more than just flashes but he does seem to be going in the right direction. He's probably produced more effective pieces of play in the last month than he did in almost the whole of last season.
He's not far off producing as many pointless and annoying pieces of play as well, to be fair, but I reckon we'll always have to take the rough with the smooth where Nani's concerned.
Players can develop after 21 you know. Fletcher wasn't a player aspiring to be a "world class" midfielder at 21.
Of course it is. Nani should be able to find the heads of two midgets surrounded by a bunch of 6'2" defenders.. Duh!
Yup, I don't really know where the "no end product" argument came from. The end product has always been there for all to see.
Was going to write the exact same thing. That's what frustrates me the most about Nani, that when he gets past his defender he doesn't get the cross in but twists and turns a couple of times until the defenders re-group and force him to play a backwards pass.
This boy frustrates me like no other player. There were several times just yesterday when he got the ball out wide and players were in the box, but instead of crossing early he seemed to look for a defender so he could take him on before he was going to cross. The times he did cross early though they were pretty poor but we know he can do it, his decision making is pretty bad, but that can come with time. He does have the ability, he just needs to cross early instead of trying to take on half the defense first before inevitabley losing the ball after trying one too many times to get across the defender.
If he can improve his decision making, he has all the attributes to be a top player. But for now i think he will continue to frustrate.
If he can improve his decision making, he has all the attributes to be a top player. But for now i think he will continue to frustrate.