I don't think anyone has said otherwise or tried to re-write anything, it's just now it isn't relevant to us because he's our player.
Negativity about RVP
- Thread starter Hectic
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I don't think anyone has said otherwise or tried to re-write anything, it's just now it isn't relevant to us because he's our player.
Ah yes, and just like Torres he came from his worst season last season as well. The signs do not look good.
Why did all the other players in our squad that once played at a different club decide to join Manchester United? A passion for Cheshire real estate? Or are they all mercenaries too?
Why? Rooney has been deployed in almost every position except as a centreback while he's been at United. Why do we know for sure he's going to play in a 442? It's very likely he will against weaker team but Fergie will have a completely different formation when we line up against a Chelsea or City.
442 against the best teams in the world isn't going to work with our midfield...so i doubt we will see it being used.
Just in relation to this point, it's up to Hernandez to develop himself also. If he's good enough, he'll make it. If he has to be better than players we have to get into the team, then that's what he has to do. If he can't do it, or isn't willing, then he doesn't deserve it. I always have the opinion that if a player is good enough, he'll get there in the end. Buying RVP shouldn't stop Hernandez developing. It will stop him getting as many games in the short term, but that might spur him in to improve and develop to earn his place in the team.
All players come to us to get trophies and money. Lets not kid ourselves.
No footballer in the world would play for just cheers and songs.
So if he's a cnut, he's in a good company because every team is full of them. As supporters we just overlook ours most of the time.
Rooney welbeck Chico Berba/macheda
Rooney RVP Chico Welbeck
I can see the logic for Fergie wanting him....
Rooney RVP Chico Welbeck
I can see the logic for Fergie wanting him....
Welbecks ahead of Hernandez to be honest.
yes sorry..not putting them in order...just the foursome...
I find the stuff about Kagawa "not being in his best position" a little bit odd. For a start, what is a better proposition... Kagawa playing as an AM or RVP playing as your striker?! I reckon I could guess what the majority of people would take...
Also, even if we hadn't signed RVP, it's wishful thinking to believe that Kagawa was always going to play behind Rooney and nowhere else. The lad has a shred of versatility about him, and Fergie knows this and so will exploit it for all he's worth. The lad would have popped up in all manner of positions... and he will still do so know we've signed RVP.
Also, even if we hadn't signed RVP, it's wishful thinking to believe that Kagawa was always going to play behind Rooney and nowhere else. The lad has a shred of versatility about him, and Fergie knows this and so will exploit it for all he's worth. The lad would have popped up in all manner of positions... and he will still do so know we've signed RVP.
Not to mention the disconnect between 'non-development of Hernandez / Welbeck' v 'we must buy a CM, despite the development of Cleverley' from the same, straight-faced people.
it's funny, 'cos it's true...I do recognise that but its the extent of his disloyalty to Arsenal, its been his dream club since he was young and he's been there for so many years.
I can't imagine him ever truly loving this club or becoming a legend.
It's just a gripe really as I love players who are united through and through.
If we get four or five really good years out of him, scoring a tonne of goals and helping us win lots of trophies I think everyone will change their mind about him. If we can end up calling an ex-Leeds player our "king" I'm sure we can find it in our hearts to warm towards Van Persie at some point.
Exactly what I said in the other thread.
Cleverely featured in 15 games last season though, while Welbeck played 40 and Hernandez was in 35. Cleverely still got to prove he can remain fit and be a real influence in midfield, something our strikers have done in the last two years.
I'm not arguing there's a disconnect...but anyone who says we don't need a CM because we have Cleverely needs to have a bit of a rethink.
Agreed, and pretty much what I said on page 1... you just articulated it much better!
Yes but signing Kagawa already meant more competition for places upfront, adding RVP now means a hell of a lot more competition. We haven't signed anyone in midfield who will provide competition for spots, unless you count Powell.
Then there's also last season, when we always had two fit strikers (at least) at our disposal, yet in midfield we were forced to play Jones and Rooney, and eventually bring Scholes back from retirement.
They are incomparable.
Because he was injured, he'd obviously have played in a lot more had he not been. His injury record was terrible, but if Fergie has faith he can stay fit, and thus is planning on using him regularly, then the argmument remains valid.
But 90% of people who wanted a midfielder (me included) wanted an alternative to Michael Carrick, not someone who plays the sort of role that Cleverley and Anderson do. RVP on the other hand will directly replace Welbeck in the starting XI, will he not?
For the record, I don't see RVP being a problem here, being 3rd choice at this club isn't a bad thing for a striker, he'll still play lots, but it's stupid to draw comparisons to the midfield situation.
That seems to be the problem though. It's often the case that when a player is versatile, he is played in all sorts of position, and ultimately this could affect their overall development or turns them into a jack of all trades. Gerrard and even Rooney's versatility has been taken advantage of both at national and club level, for better or worse I don't know. But I guess at the end of the day though, if the player shines enough in one position he will force his way in a position, like Iniesta.
More importantly though, besides the priority of other areas to strengthen, fans are just worried with the RVP signing that it may end up as too many cooks spoil the broth. The Tevez Berbatov situation wasn't that long ago for fans to remember what too many strikers can lead to.
Right...but that's my point. People don't think buying a CM will halt Cleverleys development because there just isn't that much competition for places.
Fletcher future is unknown.
Anderson is like Cleverley - full of promise but injury prone.
Giggs and Scholes are in their last season. They are excellent but nobody expects them to play every week.
Powell is a youngster who has never played at this level.
So how exactly will buying a CM hamper Cleverley's development? His own injury record does a pretty good job of preventing him from developing anyway. (same is true of Anderson as well).
Hernandez and Welbeck on the other hand really do have genuine competition. Neither can play midfield and neither is good on the wings (where we already have Young, Nani and Valencia)....and now they have RVP, Kagawa, Rooney ahead of them. Kiko, Berbatov and Will Keane behind them.
So yeah, I can see how someone can make the point that buying more strikers can stop the younger players from developing (even though i don't subscribe to that view).
The same definitely can't be said about a central midfielder though. We need a midfielder because our centre is weak. It's the weakest part of our team (aside from our defensive wings maybe).
That's a fair point, though I'm not sure i'd go as high as 90%, especially not for an alternative? I think a lot of people just wanted a star name like Modric or Moutinho (two random examples based on nothing) who could play in our midfield... and haven't neccesarily thought about who they would play with/instead of.
Personally, I wouldn't want anyone replacing Carrick... he was our best player last year for my money.
RVP adds a whole new dimension to Uniteds Attack
Other teams will be shitting themselves now having to face Rooney RVP Kagawa nani and Valencia running at them!
I think we are going to get a record goals haul this year!
I don't want anyone replacing him either, I want someone who can play in his position if he's (heaven forbid) injured or forced to play at center back, and preferably quite young so that they can take his place in a few years (he's 31 after all). I've been one of the largest advocates for getting a central midfielder on this forum, but I've said all along that it should be more of a defensive one than an attacking one, and it doesn't necessarily have to break the bank either.
There are always transfer muppets who will want every top midfielder out there but I think most of us wanted more of a Martinez (just an example) than a Moutinho.
I don't want to enter a debate about our midfield here, it has been done to death, I just think that comparing the Cleverley and Welbeck situations is daft because they are completely different.
Exactly! No one would have thought Saha would have kept Ruud out of the team, but he did ...
Exactly.
Welbeck and Hernandez have Rooney and RVP ahead of them. Two of the best strikers in the world, both in their prime.
Cleverley has Scholes / Giggs. Both are on their last legs.
As long as Cleverley manages to stay fit, he will see 25-35 games this season. There simply isn't enough competition for places in our midfield. You just have to stay fit and you'll get a game. Hell, last season you just needed to have legs and you'd get a game. Just ask Park, Rafael and Jones.
I think our left-back position could make a solid argument that would dispute the factual nature of such a claim... but I digress.
Fergie is and was always going to play the majority of games with 2 people in the centre of the pitch... that's just how he operates, and there's nothing really to suggest he would change his way of thinking.
So, for two midfield spots you have Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Anderson, Cleverly, and a seemingly on course to return Fletcher... with Powell and possibly Kagawa also in the frame. That's 6-8 players for 2 places... you can argue about personel, but in terms of numbers, that's pretty well stocked. Yes, Clev and Ando have poor injury records, but they're part of our squad... and so we must treat them as if they are going to remain fit and contribute to the team. If they're not, then we should be selling them...
If Fergie thinks Clev/Ando can only play in 10 games this season, I doubt he'd be keeping him around, and nor should we. We can't treat them as if he's going to spend the season injured, I mean, what if he manages to remain fit for the whole season? and what if Ando did too? Wouldn't a new CM hamper their development in that scenario? Again, people will say "but that's not going to happen because they're crocks" ... but if they're part of our squad, we shouldn't be treating them that way.
It's a different issue if people think we need a central midfielder to improve our current ability (i.e, a better player then Carrick, Clev, Ando et al) in the centre.
I actually edited my post a few seconds after I posted and added defensive wing is the weakest...
In terms of our midfield scenario. I'm not sure I agree about SAF always having 2 in the midfield. He's shown in the last few years that he's more then willing to load up the midfield (even if it means dropping Rooney into the midfield). But tactics aside lets look at our midfield.
While we may have 6-8 players not all of them are ever going to be considered as equals. What I mean is that Powell will be lucky to get even a single game in the regular season. He's more then likely going to only feature in the cups. I can't see many games where Giggs and Scholes feature in a midfield together unless we are playing a 451 and even then I reckon one will be a sub. I have a feeling SAF will rotate Giggs and Scholes so every game has one veteran presence. As far as Ando and Cleverley, their own fitness will likely dictate how many games they play. We can only judge from past seasons and we'll be lucky if either breaks the 40 game mark. We can count on Fletcher returning...but again, just how many games can he start this season? Could be 40...could be as many as Hargreaves did.
So while on the surface it looks like we have A LOT of players, competing for 2 spots I think the reality is we don't. I'm not sure Kagawa can play in a 2 man midfield. I may be wrong, but we've yet to see it in action. So the way I see it there are plenty of unknowns and plenty of opportunities for players to step up and claim those places.
We might operate with a 451 / 4411 for a large number of away games so there's every chance for 3 midfielders to be on the field at some point in the game (even if it's as subs).
My point is we could do with getting another midfielder. In fact, it'd probably be prudent if we did given the likelihood of injury problems in that area.
The Hernandez thing gets on my tits, I cannot understand how people can't grasp the concept of depth in a squad. Its ridiculous but not as ridiculous as people who think he will or should be let go. Apparently its common for a player to play three solid years of football without much of a break and stay on top form the whole time. Chicharito didnt get the memo obviously so lets flog the fecker. 
Nani, Van Persie, Rooney, Valencia
(with Welbeck, Hernandez, Young or Kawaga to step in as and when needed)
As close to the vitality of Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez and Giggs of 2008!
Yep, that is mental
The Hernandez thing gets on my tits, I cannot understand how people can't grasp the concept of depth in a squad. Its ridiculous but not as ridiculous as people who think he will or should be let go. Apparently its common for a player to play three solid years of football without much of a break and stay on top form the whole time. Chicharito didnt get the memo obviously so lets flog the fecker.
It's a bit stupid isn't it. People seem to forget that competition for places is a damn good thing, and that they couldn't play constantly anyway. It's good because the games Hernandez was going to play anyway, comes with an extra incentive for him now. We need to be able to rest and rotate players, even better that they know their places aren't set in stone. Not to mention the benefit he will have of playing with a player of Van Persie's ability as well, that's never a bad thing for our prospects to learn from, or the partnership Rooney and RVP will surely form. People thinking we would sell him are just being ridiculous, why would we possibly do that?
Given the 2 strikers we've bought this week Im delighted.
The Henriquez deal is done?
Yeah, said so himself, as I recall he wants to go back on loan to his old club.
We strengthened in area we didnt need just like when we bought Berbatov.
With all these strikers is fergie going to stick to 4-4-2 - if so then he will be found out once again in the Champions League.
Hernandez and Welbeck might as well accept they will be playing in the Carling Cup from now on.
So far we have not strengthened the fullback areas or in central midfield.
He's a good player but just like when we signed Berba he isn't the player we need.
With all these strikers is fergie going to stick to 4-4-2 - if so then he will be found out once again in the Champions League.
Hernandez and Welbeck might as well accept they will be playing in the Carling Cup from now on.
So far we have not strengthened the fullback areas or in central midfield.
He's a good player but just like when we signed Berba he isn't the player we need.
The apparent low-ball offer of 90k that's been offered by the Glazers, according to the press is shocking imo. Before, he was willing to accept 120k, now, like you, I think that he's got every right to be arguing for something far closer to what RvP and Rooney are getting.
On a side note: Thanks for nursing me back up to the mains!
There's no way he'll get parity with them, should definitely be our closest player to them though.