No Mata no problem

Raoul said:
Nah...its just bored people trying to build a weak argument. Once he knocks in or assists a goal or two, it will be tumbleweed city in here.
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Sorry but it isn't. Ignoring his recent poor form, even before that he masked poor results with a goal here and there. He's doing exactly what Rooney did for a while, not effecting the game at all but then suddenly popping up with a goal.

It's a great talent to have but we need more than that, we need people to be involved and a THREAT the whole game. Playing him on the right wing makes us completely toothless.

The problem is he smiles and does his blog and everybody ignores it.

If we are going to play him as a 10 then he can mask his lack of athleticism more, but this isn't a thread about being a 10.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Sorry but it isn't. Ignoring his recent poor form, even before that he masked poor results with a goal here and there. He's doing exactly what Rooney did for a while, not effecting the game at all but then suddenly popping up with a goal.

It's a great talent to have but we need more than that, we need people to be involved and a THREAT the whole game. Playing him on the right wing makes us completely toothless.

The problem is he smiles and does his blog and everybody ignores it.

If we are going to play him as a 10 then he can mask his lack of athleticism more, but this isn't a thread about being a 10.
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Most of our players aren't affecting the game. Its a sad byproduct of Van Gaal's ineptness. The extravagant thesis of Mata being not good enough will evaporate after his next good performance.
 
saivet said:
I disagree, Herrera gets a lot of credit for not doing much, credit which no one else would receive.

I do agree that he suits midfield 3, and that would be my preference, but thought he was pretty average yesterday.
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Agree. The most movement herrera did was jumping out of challenges.

I think hes a squad player at best for us.

As for mata and the topic in general, i fear for him. Did not miss him last night sadly.
 
I feel like the fans are starting to turn on him now cause they believe Mourinho is coming in, so they're making their choice now.
 
I agree with the OP. We are a far better side without him in the team.
 
Raoul said:
You can't really evaluate any player with any degree of accuracy this year because of Van Gaal's management. He clearly isn't able to bring the best out of players and has generated considerable negative sentiment if comments by the likes of Nani, RvP, Di Maria et al are anything to go by. The likes of Mata and Herrera and several others are clearly victims of poor management, so coming up with threads like these is pretty pointless.
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Luckily my evaluation isn't based on this season alone but you certainly can evaluate players based on this season, I know Smalling, Martial, Rashford, Shaw and De Gea are good players based on this season.
 
Fergus' son said:
Luckily my evaluation isn't based on this season alone but you certainly can evaluate players based on this season, I know Smalling, Martial, Rashford, Shaw and De Gea are good players based on this season.
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You can't really use last season either. Our squad has been unhinged for nearly three years by perpetual changes in managers, formations, tactics, and injuries, which doesn't really lend itself to any sort of objective player analysis. The problem at this moment is Van Gaal, not Mata or any of the usual kneejerk suspects.
 
Raoul said:
You can't really use last season either. Our squad has been unhinged for nearly three years by perpetual changes in managers, formations, tactics, and injuries, which doesn't really lend itself to any sort of objective player analysis. The problem at this moment is Van Gaal, not Mata or any of the usual kneejerk suspects.
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:lol:

Let's hope our next manager doesn't think like this and does actually judge some of the players, otherwise we'll be going into the season with a lot of deadwood - Mata included.

Have you also been similarly reluctant to judge the players that are doing well?
 
Fergus' son said:
:lol:

Let's hope our next manager doesn't think like this and does actually judge some of the players, otherwise we'll be going into the season with a lot of deadwood - Mata included.

Have you also been similarly reluctant to judge the players that are doing well?
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De Gea and Smalling have been outstanding, despite Van Gaal's idiotic philosophy meddling. Other than that, you'd be hard pressed to say anyone has fared well. The young players are still too new to be adequately evaluated.
 
Perrick Dubois said:
To be fair, no 4-2-3-1 and no problem is more the case in my opinion. We have 4 (BFS is probably to old to play a select role and would benefit from freedom) box to box midfielders and not a single proper playmaking ten who can play at an exceptional level but we've continued to bang this 4-2-3-1 drum all season with two midfielders who barely get past half way when we have the ball.

A boggler of a season this one has been really.
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This.

#10 is a very specialised position, and we don't have anyone who can play there effectively. Mata is the closest but he isn't good enough. I suggest we forget about this formation and go back to 4-3-3 (point backwards).
I don't see a place for him in first team. He can stay as a squad option but shouldn't be starting.

I see a lot of people criticising Herrera, but he is a midfielder (unlike Mata, who is more of a striker to me) and can be very good if used correctly, for example on the right of midfield three. I don't think we'll get someone better this summer, and I think Mourinho will love him.
 
I'm not his biggest fan, to be honest, but what was mentioned above is still a good point: You can't properly assess any individual player in a team that struggle collectively to the extent we often do whenever we face a less than ideal opponent.

To me, his best run came in a certain role for a Chelsea team that set up in a way I sincerely hope we won't ever try to replicate. So, there's that. He's a good player, but not someone I personally would consider building a team around, or even rely on to perform an important part as a regular starter.

I'd keep him around, maybe, and let him try to impress his way off the bench and into the starting XI – but there's no way I'd count him among the must-keeps if I were the next manager.
 
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Red Defence said:
How many assists has he got for us this season? How many has everyone else got?
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Mata 8 goals (Including 2 pens), 9 assists, in 3,531 mins on the pitch, 43 starts + 4 sub

Martial 13 goals (including 1 pen), 6 assists in 3,550 mins on the pitch, 39 starts + 3 sub

Lingard 5 goals, 4 assists in 2427 mins,

Herrera 5 goals (including 2 pens), 5 assists in 2128 mins

Memphis 7 goals, 6 assists in 2239 mins (classic flat-track bully, great numbers against crap opposition, minimal impact so far against decent sides)
 
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Raoul said:
You can't really evaluate any player with any degree of accuracy this year because of Van Gaal's management. He clearly isn't able to bring the best out of players and has generated considerable negative sentiment if comments by the likes of Nani, RvP, Di Maria et al are anything to go by. The likes of Mata and Herrera and several others are clearly victims of poor management, so coming up with threads like these is pretty pointless.
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So close every thread in the player performances forum until we get a new manager then.
 
kundalini said:
Mata 8 goals (Including 2 pens), 9 assists, in 3,531 mins on the pitch, 43 starts + 4 sub

Martial 13 goals (including 1 pen), 6 assists in 3,550 mins on the pitch, 39 starts + 3 sub

Lingard 5 goals, 4 assists in 2427 mins,

Herrera 5 goals (including 2 pens), 5 assists in 2128 mins

Memphis 7 goals, 6 assists in 2239 mins (classic flat-track bully, great numbers against crap opposition, minimal impact so far against decent sides)
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Thanks for those figures.

Seems like Mata's worth keeping then. He plays so many good through balls into the penalty area that if someone got on the end of a third of them we'd be up there challenging for the title. Just not at his best on the wing. (but we all know that he's not a winger)
 
Gazza said:
Knee-jerk? One of the most frequent and consistently-made complaints on this forum over the past two seasons, more like.
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Has it ? I've never noticed that.
 
He's been at United for over 2 years and has had, by my reckoning, 1 truly great performance, against Liverpool. He's had nice touches, scored good goals and had a collection of fine moments, enough to give the impression of a major talent in one of those deceptive YouTube compilations. But he flatters to deceive and wouldn't be missed if we sold him.
 
I bet Mata's haul is similar to Memphis in coming mostly against weaker sides. In fact I know it is because he only has 5 goals 4 assists in the Premier League, from 32 games (29 starts). Three of those goals were at OT against Watford, WBA and Sunderland. The assist return is fairly pathetic for a player of his type, especially one who takes all the damn set pieces.

In terms of his key contributions against the bigger sides he only has two. An assist away at City and an important goal away at Southampton.

He has been nothing but a passenger in almost every away match and in almost every match against a top 8 side. He's on £140k/week or so, and he's probably worth exactly half of that. I don't rate Lingard as a future United starter but he's less of a passenger.
 
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Borys said:
This.

#10 is a very specialised position, and we don't have anyone who can play there effectively. Mata is the closest but he isn't good enough. I suggest we forget about this formation and go back to 4-3-3 (point backwards).
I don't see a place for him in first team. He can stay as a squad option but shouldn't be starting.

I see a lot of people criticising Herrera, but he is a midfielder (unlike Mata, who is more of a striker to me) and can be very good if used correctly, for example on the right of midfield three. I don't think we'll get someone better this summer, and I think Mourinho will love him.
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Correct. I think personally (pie in the sky here) that #10 is more a state of mind. But with Van Gaal's insistence on positional rigidity and discipline it has been a bit of a thorn in our side this season. No player can nail it down at a high level and you can see that. Depay was very poor, Januzaj was positionally indisciplined and didn't like to defend as much. Herrera is more a free-role player who prefers operates in between the system (who also had to be groomed to play at #10 by Van Gaal, vangalized) and Mata just doesn't have the athletic ability to be dynamic and open up play with unpredictability. Jesse Lingard just looks like a winger who is playing in the middle and much the same as Depay. Then there is Fellaini who unfortunately becomes a hoofball target when he is there. It isn't really his fault but it is more about the rigid discipline that he becomes the out ball and people start lumping it up to him when they are in trouble in defense/defensive midfield.

The squad looks to be set up to play 4-3-3 all day. This isn't slinging shit at Mata either, I would have no problem with him playing in the 4-3-3 on the right because the extra mobile body in the center that allows interplay and to drop in through the middle when we don't have the ball means that he can break on the last man (something that in my opinion would also critically help Depay). He (Mata, great shout by the way), for me is more of a poacher-type striker so you want to be opening up the play and allowing him to get free at the back post without being tied down to a position. Wherever I look there are little messy pieces of our system that don't fit properly and this/he is one of them. (Not him as a player, I just mean how he adapts to the role itself.) Last season we had 6 strikers we couldn't keep happy so we forced ourselves to play 3-5-2 and this season we have all these midfielders who aren't water-carriers having to slot in and do these things for whatever reason.

This is probably the main reason why I think Van Gaal has been wrong for our club the entire time. We've always thrived on players being able to play the space, trust themselves on the ball and positional discipline and awareness was a state of mind. Not a physical entity that must be adhered to in a system. Like a martial arts strike, discipline is about tightening the fist for the point of impact and being able to flow like water at all other times.

I think it really says a lot about his management when he had to come out and say that he physically had to substitute a player (remember, a like for like substitution) onto the field to provide a structural change. Running in behind, as he said it should be taught on the training pitch and a manager should allow his players to utilize it at his discretion. (Slight nod to the debate surrounding Rooney who never makes runs in behind I think the door is definitely closed on why he doesn't do that, now.) It wasn't even a case of removing one DM and providing an extra body in attack to run in behind it was a like for like player change. Pretty arcane stuff if you ask me.
 
hobbers said:
I bet Mata's haul is similar to Memphis in coming mostly against weaker sides. In fact I know it is because he only has 5 goals 4 assists in the Premier League, from 32 games (29 starts). Three of those goals were at OT against Watford, WBA and Sunderland. The assist return is fairly pathetic for a player of his type, especially one who takes all the damn set pieces.

In terms of his key contributions against the bigger sides he only has two. An assist away at City and an important goal away at Southampton.

He has been nothing but a passenger in almost every away match and in almost every match against a top 8 side. He's on £140k/week or so, and he's probably worth exactly half of that. I don't rate Lingard as a future United starter but he's less of a passenger.
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Exactly what I was getting at. He can only play the RW position acceptably against teams who camp in their own box. It lets the RB be the width and he can roam around inside the box.

Against half decent teams who won't gift it to us he struggles so much it's literally pointless him being on the field. I know he's a fan favourite because he's a charming man but we need much, much more. Watching Douglas Costa for bayern and then seeing Mata makes you realise how night and day it is :lol:
 
Unfortunately not the superstar footballer we thought we were buying. At least his entrance in a helicopter was great.
 
Kostur said:
I'd still have him as #10 above anybody else in the squad if we insist playing 4231 for some idiotic reason.

It was just one of those games where we, surprise surprise, played well for some reason. As per usual people try to overanalyse/overthink it and look for SpaceGoats where there's no need for it. If we played without Fellaini yesterday and won, we'd hear how we play slick shit without Fellaini and he's the reason why we play shit 99% of other games.
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This made me laugh so much more than it should have done! :lol:
 
The problem for Mata is if we play him wide he is so predictable. He doesn't have the pace or dribbling to go on the outside so he will always come inside. Also we know he is never going to be a great defender. He is short, relatively weak, lacks pace and no aerial prowess. Basically he is only useful in one position which is the number 10 role. Failing that even someone like Valencia makes more sense on the wing.

Next season we need to make a choice. Play Mata centrally behind a striker with good movement (and wingers who actively look to get beyond the last defender) or we may as well get rid for his sake as much as ours
 
So, Mourinho was right after all and we are the suckers who fell for it.
I like Mata, good player decent person. He would be better suited to play in spain.
2 excellent seasons he had at Chelsea. I cannot see him reaching those heights again playing for UTD.
 
Jinn said:
So, Mourinho was right after all and we are the suckers who fell for it.
I like Mata, good player decent person. He would be better suited to play in spain.
2 excellent seasons he had at Chelsea. I cannot see him reaching those heights again playing for UTD.
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Except his reasoning was BS. He claimed Mata doesn't work defensively. And Mata was in top 3 of distance covered in most matches last season.
 
Ramshock said:
I love Mata, if he had pace and some strength this thread wouldnt exist.
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It wouldn't exist because he wouldn't be here.

RaptorSlo said:
Except his reasoning was BS. He claimed Mata doesn't work defensively. And Mata was in top 3 of distance covered in most matches last season.
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Distance covered has absolutly nothing to do with defensive work.
 
I wouldn't complain if he was sold. I could barely count on one hand the amount of stand out performances he's had for us.
 
RaptorSlo said:
Except his reasoning was BS. He claimed Mata doesn't work defensively. And Mata was in top 3 of distance covered in most matches last season.
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Much of the time pretending to shut players down!
 
How much do you think we'd get for Mata? 18-20m? I take the point that he's not the most serious problem we have but, as a policy, we should not be keeping big wage earners into their late 20s if they have not proven themselves. And the evidence of the last 2.5 seasons is that he isn't someone good enough to play a big part in a side challenging for the title.
 
Freak said:
I really like him, but I can predict with 90% accuracy what he's going to do most of the time, which is a side ways pass.
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That goes for pretty much every player in the squad right now with maybe the exception of Martial.
 
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