By the time he left Dortmund he had almost 130 appearances! He won the DFB cup with them! Certainly a lot more proven than, say, Martial was when joined us. I just don’t think this argument flies. Abraham scored 25 goals in the championship last season, Mount got into the playoffs, James was apparently imperious for Wigan etc. Dan James came in from the championship and has become an important player for us. I mean, these guys are around the age of 22. It’s obviously not the done thing at Chelsea, but big teams have been relying on their youth products for eons! This is suppose to be a really talented group you lot have, you can’t keep loaning them forever (wouldn’t put it past you lot though).
Ole & United vs. Frank & Chelsea: who will have the better season?
- Thread starter Fortitude
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I like the way you mention the key injuries you’ve suffered but decided to completely omit all ours! Slightly disingenuous.
In your haste to shit on United, you’ve neglected some other key points. This was also our managers first summer with the team. We also lost our top goal scorer, a key midfielder to PSG, our (only?) established leftback, our best midfielder and most creative outlet, our only established number 9. I mean, we’ve clearly both suffered.
Chelsea have had these young players lingering about in your reserves and in Holland for God knows how long.
The transfer ban is one of the best things that have happened to your club & is underestimated what it can do to in its ability to build an understanding of how the club needs to run long term. It has also reduced the stress and pressure of achieving things to Chelsea's normally high set standards.
Having an ex player manager who is a great legend and fan of the club is going to do this more than a manger like Sarri or Conte. You can see the difference between Jose & Ole in how they wanted to run United too.
Just one last thing on Lampard and general management - I have this feeling that midfielders in the modern day make slightly better ex player managers. Of course this isn't going to be scientifically correctly across board - but the fact that midfielders play in a position where a vast majority of them have to balance a defensive aspect and an attacking aspect of their game makes me feel that they are able to get that just right - a balance of attack & defence when managing their team.
Lampard is doing alright. But it's unfair to say if he able todo well against city away to measure his ability.
One thing for sure he won't assemble the team to park the bus like all against city. He will try to win the game to consolidate points to gain advantage over chasing pack for top 4 spot.
He is not afraid to lose which is breath of fresh air considering the managers we had in the past. He always try to win the game by playing attacking game. Nothing wrong in that in my opinion.
Come on blues. Let's get one over guardiola and city to make us favourite for top 4 spot.:-)
You are forcing it to suit your argument. I could say the same thing.
What about us? We lost Lukaku our 2nd top scorer last season & also our best top scorer 2 seasons ago, we lost Sanchez, we lost our 2nd best midfielder Herrera, despite of losing those three we didn’t sign a replacement. We finished below you last season and we lost those three without a single replacement, in your argument it should make our team worse then. Why are you ignoring that?
We also lost our manager Jose Mourinho.
We lost Pogba our best midfielder and most creative player due to injury & we lost Martial our only centre forward due to injury, and I haven’t even include the others like Shaw, Tuanzebe and the others for injuries.
Why are you ignoring the fact that we also create a new team with very young player, in fact so far this season we have fielded the average of youngest starting XI, it wasn’t Chelsea.
Let’s be honest, Higuain wasn’t any good anyway. Oh by the way you did spend money on Pulisic and Kovacic. You are only looking at your situation but ignoring that United has been suffered worse.
I didn't ignore United's situation. My whole argument was based around the fact the guy I initially countered implied the main reason we were in a better position than United is we were lucky with injuries and players we had available, which couldn't be further from the truth. If we were told at the start of the season at the point of the 3rd international break that Rudiger was only going to play 45 minutes, Kante was only going to start 4 games and Abraham would be number one striker and I tried to claim despite all that we would be joint 2nd and above City at that point can you honestly hand on heart say you wouldn't have laughed hysterically at me? Look at the pre season predictions thread, many expected us out of the top 6 with those two playing let alone without.
Regarding Higuain, he may not have been that great but let's be honest, compared to Alexis he was like prime R9. Lukaku from a goal scoring perspective is a fair point however.
I think everyone here appreciates that Frank is doing a great job at Chelsea at the moment. But you are also forgetting 'new manager bounce'. Your team deserves to be where it is at the moment, but I'll be surprised if a young team like yours can keep this up for the whole season.
United's youngsters are about 2-2.5 behind yours. This is showing much more with our injuries (as compared to yours). I'm not saying that you didn't have injuries, but having Mount / Pulisic to come in for Pedro/ Willian, is much better than having 18-yr old greenwood and 19 year old Chong coming in for Martial.
The base which Ole is working with is currently lower, and that's reflecting in the league positions. On the basis of the first XIs, I think it's neck and neck between both the clubs and managers.
The guy that you countered before only mentioned injuries not the players that you had available from the start of season. You are then went to extend by mentioning you lost some players from transfer window but at the same time we also lost some players from transfer window.
Let's be honest. We signed Sanchez for purpose to make him as our starting XI players. We didn't go sign a new attackers last season under Jose because we signed Sanchez. We didn't make it into top 4 for many reason and one of the reason is because Sanchez has failed us, it makes sense to sign a replacement for him and at the same time it makes sense to sign a new striker after losing our only centre forward in the team Lukaku. It also makes sense to sign a replacement for Herrera or even Fellaini.
But what we did was the same as Chelsea, we didn't go sign the replacement but we have faith in the young players like Rashford, Martial, McTomminay and etc.
The difference is that we lost two our best player due to injuries, I don't even go crying like what you did on Rudiger for losing our left back because imo Shaw is not considered as crucial player. Not best player in the certain position but actually 2 our most crucial player, our most creative player & also our only centre forward. Which reflects the reality that we have been struggling to create chances to score but we have the best of less goal expected which reflect our defense.
Did we even have a bounce ? We won two in our first eight.
The quality of football we're playing can't be explained away with just a bounce, some of the passing and combination play especially under pressure requires some excellent coaching to pull off (for example, look at the shit Arsenal are getting themselves into trying to play out under pressure and they have the player that was supposedly crucial to the chances of us doing it so well).
That said we will have a blip at some point, it's inevitable with only 4 players in the entire squad in their prime, that's why I hope the media don't hype us up as title dark horses because realistically it's not happening.
His point is Chelsea have suffered more. Which is clearly true.
The ban has so far proven to be fortuitous for Chelsea and yes it has shown the board there is another way. Frank has done well so far but the young players may hit a wall later in the season. This is when we may find Franks true credentials. I think a managers playing position isn't so important. The ability to learn is more important.
I'm aware Utd have suffered with the loss of a manager and players but it can be argued Chelsea have suffered just as much if not more. Utd haven't had a transfer ban either.
I'm not against that Chelsea has suffered too in fact in term of the loss manager & players are the similar which is why I don't know what's the point the original poster is trying to make there. My point is that our injuries was the one do more damage. We lost two our most crucial players in the squad due to injuries which reflect our attack & creating chances.
Ugh, that wasn’t his only point? He also made the point the point that United ‘only’ lost Lukaku and Sanchez. If we’re going to talk footy, let’s at least be fecking honest. We have standards here!
I hear what you are saying but it's not as clear cut as that because Chelsea have been without RLC and Rudiger since the start of the season and have also had Kante out for most of the season. If you add in the injuries to Christensen, Barclay and now Pulisic Chelsea have had and continue to have injuries to key players. Attack, defense it doesn't matter where the injuries are. If they are to key players the team won't function properly and this is reflected in Chelsea's goals conceded stat.
I concede Utd haven't been scoring enough but isn't this down to them not having decent attacking options and not injuries?
The season before last our only first team signing was Fred. We also brought in a prospect in Dalot (and ol’ Lee Granty Pants). Despite the ban you brought in Pulisic, and had Abraham, Mount, Tomori and Reece James (any others that slipped through the net?) come back from successful loans. These were promising youth players ready for integrating into the main team. It’s just really weird to see a group of fans keep complaining about a transfer ban when you’ve got a great crop of young players ready to come into the fold! As I’ve already said, this is something other teams have been doing for awhile. Yeah you could have made a couple of extra transfers, but just is the case with playing academy boys new signings also carry a risk.
Also, this ‘our woe is greater than your woe’, from both sides, is a bit tiresome.
Again I have said this before your injury reflect what happened to your defense while our injury reflect what happened to our attack.
But what I am mentioning is we lost two our most crucial players due to injuries which greatly impact to our game play since one is our most creative player while the other one is our only centre forward.
I am not just picking every players who got injured. I don't go cry making excuse that we lost Luke Shaw our main left back just like what you did on RLC & Rudiger because I don't think Shaw is our crucial player and I don't think RLC & Rudiger are your crucial players. And again I could mention McTomminay, Matic, Bissaka, Tuanzebe and so on. Imagine if you lost Mount & Abraham due to injury, would Chelsea still be the same?
It is a bit.
4 losses in last 5 games. They can go behind Us and Spurs in the next two matches if the results don't go their way.
Top 4 race is now opened, as far as I'm concerned.
Lampard is having a mixed bag season, wonder what is their fans views on that?
Toxic like us, or patience?
Lampard is having a mixed bag season, wonder what is their fans views on that?
Toxic like us, or patience?
We're doing better than most thought and every fan with half a brain knew there would be a few wobbles.
If sure you can go to Twitter or Reddit and find some toxic stuff but let's be honest, you can't really take those opinions seriously.
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This is to be expected from a team with young players just like ours. There is no way they will maintain a consistent form all the time. I expect Lampard to stay at Chelsea at least until he gets his first summer transfer windows unless if he fails to even give Europa league qualification.
However, it still chuckles me how some of Chelsea fans overrated their players just because results have gone their way and said that they won’t even think some of our players like Pogba, Rashford, Maguire, Martial and etc will make it to Chelsea squad, the reality is that their players aren’t that better in current ability.
However, it still chuckles me how some of Chelsea fans overrated their players just because results have gone their way and said that they won’t even think some of our players like Pogba, Rashford, Maguire, Martial and etc will make it to Chelsea squad, the reality is that their players aren’t that better in current ability.
I don't get this young squad thing. Are Rudiger, kante, kovacic, pedro, willian, jorginho, barkley, zouma and kepa 'young players'? Add to that Tammy abraham has been on loan for ages (both PL and championship), pulisic(been playing since 16 or 17 in the bundesliga) and you see that there is experience in the squad. People made it sound like Lampard just plucked all these players straight from the reserves to the first team. The reality is that Chelsea have been hoarding talent for many years and used that as another revenue stream by selling them to other teams. It is only because of the transfer ban that they made this whole show of 'playing the youth'. You can already see chelsea fans online clamouring for signing Koulibaly, zaha and others.
I’ll take my words back about their squad are full of young players like us.
However, I do think Chelsea the club right now wants to develop some of their young players instead of spending too much on too many players. I remember that Abramovich wanted the club to focus on that after Jose won his 3rd PL with Chelsea which no manager (Conte & Sarri) had balls or the skills to do it. I think Lampard is the perfect fit for it.
Regarding the fans online glamouring those type of players. Just like some of our fans also do the same thing that those people want glamour signings. I prefer us to develop young player which something we normally did in the past under Sir Alex.
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It's not a few, the majority of this place is hysterical as feck when we lose.
Well in my opinion, hundreds of 'Ole out' posts on an anonymous football forum cannot be used as an accurate representation of the general Manchester United fans' view on Ole. As Duffer said if you measure 'fans' only by RedCafe, Reddit, Twitter or <<insert any other online discussion platform here>> then there will always be overreaction (e.g. calling your manager an arsehole after a loss) because there's no consequences for that. They just want to let out their frustration.
Regardless of this wobble Lampard needs a big result, if you look at Ole one of his first results at United was winning at Spurs and he followed that up with a win at Arsenal. Conversely Lampard has lost to United twice this season, lost to Liverpool twice (ok once on pens) and lost to City. It'll be interesting to see what happens in their upcoming games against Spurs and Arsenal both away from home IIRC
That is absolute rubbish sorry.
We may have had a ban but every single youth player bar Hudson Odoi has had a senior player let go to make space for them.
The ban didn't state we had to sell Luiz and give his space to Tomori, nor did it state we were obliged to play Abraham over a world cup winning striker, nor did it say we had to loan out Zappacosta to give James a clear run at a spot or use Mason Mount loaning title winning midfielder Drinkwater out in the process. It certainly never stated we had to bring on Billy Gilmour with a slender 2-1 lead.
Apart from Odoi, we had enough players to totally avoid using the young lads if we really really wanted too.
Fair enough. Brave of any manager to get rid of stalwarts such as Zappacosta and Drinkwater.
Frankie really going for the sack if this wiiiild and dramatic downturn in results is not arrested asap? The fourth CL spot is open again for a lot of clubs, which helps make Ole a lot stronger now. Fascinating.
No Chelsea fan with half a brain wants to sign Zaha. Admittedly, this qualification rules out a significant portion of our fanbase.
This is looking interesting, isn't it?
3-4 months ago Lampard was evidence of how easy it is to implement your style of play and how clueless OGS was.
There still seems to be a narrative like this. Lampard has now lost 3 of his last 4 home games.
By the way, I like Lampard and I would like to see him do well in his career. It's just worth noting people really need to stop being so quick to label managers are geniuses and others as poor.
I was convinced there was going to be a Europa League showdown with them but maybe we'll meet in the FA Cup.
Lampard does seem to be used on here by Man United fans as a stick to beat OGS with, to the point that it's turned many against Lampard.
I personally don't think it's a fair comparison, one is a rookie and the other had a decade of managerial experience.
Lampard v Gerrard and OGS v someone who had been managing for around a decade (Brendan Rodgers?) would make more sense.
OGS hasn’t had a decade of experience, Molde barely even counts. It’s a totally different game. What experience does he bring from Molde that is applicable to managing a club like Man Utd? Hardly anything tbh.
They are struggling for goals now, their style of play is good and they commit more players for attack but for some reason they are not scoring enough goals and in some games they are not even creating good chances.