I agree with the last bit especially Ederson isnt all that as a pure GK and has made howlers against us in multiple games in the past, the reason he gets less scrutiny is because the control City have in games he very rarely has anything much to do especially against the lesser teams, United have 0 control of games against the lower end of the table teams let alone the teams at the top so Onana is open to more shots and better quality chances for the opposition than some of his peers.
Onana has not worked out. We need a new keeper.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I agree with the last bit especially Ederson isnt all that as a pure GK and has made howlers against us in multiple games in the past, the reason he gets less scrutiny is because the control City have in games he very rarely has anything much to do especially against the lesser teams, United have 0 control of games against the lower end of the table teams let alone the teams at the top so Onana is open to more shots and better quality chances for the opposition than some of his peers.
Rather than concentrate on if he’s shite or not, can we think how we’d have to set up our team to get the best out of him. What do we need to change or who do we need to bring in to maximise his performances? Let’s not forget, he was getting rave reviews last year at Inter. What we’re they doing differently?
That performance is way more than just doing "fairly well in playing out from the back".
Calling others dumb, simply because don't understand what he brings to the table and why it's so important.
We need to be able to build out from the back and have more technical, and press-resistant players whilst also maintaining (and upgrading, tbh) physicality levels.
Right now, I'd say only Onana, Shaw, Martínez and Mainoo can do the job to the required level. The whole right side is lacking, especially AWB and Varane, I would say.
The off-ball movement and getting into optimal positions when Onana has the ball could also improve as well.
Outside of a few nice passes up through the middle, he's doing the bare minimum in that clip. And again, it's one game. Meanwhile we can make a compilation of his first 30 games here, where he has cost us around ten goals due to his individual errors, which has pretty much directly led us to being knocked out of European football. That doesn't go away by looking at a few decent passes from one game. Simply put, what he might have added in our build-up has not nearly compensated for what he has cost us as a shot-stopper.
You simply cannot have a keeper at the top level who isn't good at stopping shots. He single handedly cost us CL progression over 3 different games. Doesn't matter if you look like Messi with the ball at your feet if you can't be relied on 99% of the time when it comes to shot stopping.
I was of the opinion that he wouldn't be as good as DDG at saving shots but if he was good then the trade off for his passing was worth it. Unfortunately he has cost us far too many goals already this season. Not just from comically bad mistakes, but from poor positioning and decision making.
I was of the opinion that he wouldn't be as good as DDG at saving shots but if he was good then the trade off for his passing was worth it. Unfortunately he has cost us far too many goals already this season. Not just from comically bad mistakes, but from poor positioning and decision making.
Just what I was thinking. Brilliant distribution but he had nothing to do from an actual goalkeeper point of view.
How is it just one game when his passing has been great at all of United, Inter, and Ajax for several years straight?
You're just not able to assess how difficult it is to make those passes when you and your teammates are getting pressed, especially by a team like City.
You also aren't able to realize that these qualities are essential for a keeper that plays for a possession-based team, which we are trying to become long-term.
I also don't know why you bring up his howlers when I myself have said several times on here that Onana has knocked us out of the CL basically single-handedly this season, and the frequency these howlers happen with simply cannot continue and he has to make them go away very soon. He's also never been this prone to making these types of mistakes, so that would suggest that it's a mental thing, meaning they can indeed go away. But that's not what I'm trying to discuss at the moment if you read posts.
If the passes Onana makes are so simple, then why couldn't De Gea do 10% of what Onana does in that regard? Why are technical goalkeepers so coveted these days?
Rather than defending him to the death, Liverpool swiftly replaced their meme-worthy goalkeeper shortly after their CL finals loss.
What do you even mean? That clip was literally from one game. That's why I called it stupid in the first place, because one game of highlights was being used with the caption "this is who you are hating on". One game proves nothing.
Yes, I am able to realize that. It is important, and Onana is good at it. Whoop-de-doo. Now if only he didn't cost us a goal every other game.
It's probably partly a mental thing, yes, but we have also now seen numerous examples of just really, really poor techinque as a goalkeeper. Not just from the goals he has let in, but also from his saves, where the ball bounces in all kinds of weird directions. I'm not holding my breath waiting for these mistakes to disappear, because it seems fundamental.
De Gea was quite bad at that aspect of the game, that's probably why. I'm not really sure what your point is. Onana is good at distribution, but way, waaaaay too bad at shotstopping for it to matter.
Football is about ability and confidences and Onana has lost all confidence at the moment so it may be good to give him a break
I hope he can come through this spell but I guess his days here might be numbered
I hope he can come through this spell but I guess his days here might be numbered
If we have to change the whole team (more or less) to suit the goalkeeper, is he really the right goalkeeper for us? Add that to his error proneness and risky style of play and that’s a pretty unappealing package.
It's absolutely not to suit the goalkeeper, how can that be your takeaway from this?
Who said we’re trying to be a possession team
You won't get anywhere if you're not.
It’s literally what you said in your post. It’s also a widely reported/acknowledged reality that our players aren’t suitable for the style of game ETH is known for.
We showed some positive signs last season, and played a handful of really impressive games. Our issue was scoring enough goals and being clinical with the chances we created. We were crying out for an experienced striker.
I get the arguement about DeGea, but he would have been serviceable for another year or two, then we could have sold him for actual money (even a small fee is more than nothing) and upgraded when we were playing the style of football ETH wants and scoring goals.
Spending all the transfer kitty on Onana was absolutely the wrong move, and the bit that really rankles is he was sold as somebody who would revolutionise our play, and he isn’t living up to the billing. He’s not even as good as a declining DeGea. We’ve gone backwards, and we STILL aren’t scoring goals. Even Rashford has dried up again.
We should have shown some pragmatism, but it’s just a symptom of the rudderless nature of the club until now.
they don't press the keeper because they cut off his passing channels. Going long is not unrelated, he is going long because he's no options. Going long effects our build up play as we ideally want to play out from the back. He also needs to move the ball a lot quicker at times. The longer he takes to pass, the more time the opposition get in place to cut off his short passing options. Pep did it in the CL final v Inter with City and was very open about it.
Just like @Remember the geese said, we're going to have to become a possession-based team...or bust, basically.
Every single elite team is very good at building out from the back, and playing out of a high-press in their own half. We aren't trying to become better in these things in order to please Onana and accomodate him into our tactics. We have to become better at these things in order to evolve as a team and be able to exert control over most of our games.
That will lead to more possession. More possession leads to more chances created and less chances conceded. It's that simple.
From our current keepers, backline and midfielders, only Onana, Martínez, Shaw and Mainoo are at the required level to start for a top team based on their press-resistance, and ability to play out from the back, and to play out of a high press. Other players such as Dalot, AWB, Maguire, Malacia, etc. have some good attributes but they wouldn't be regular starters for a team that's serious about winning the Champions League or Premier League.
We have been looking at right backs for ages, by the way, and are looking to recruit a right-footed centre back as well this summer, so it's not like I'm talking out of my ass here. The manager and scouting department have identified these problems a long time ago.
Regarding what you said about De Gea: I don't believe that at a club of United's size, with the resources we have available, a new manager has to resort to a pragmatic style of play after 2 games (Brighton H & Brentford A last season) and abandon his ideas for several seasons before he can assemble a team that can play the way he wants. It was evident to ten Hag as far back as summer 2022 that De Gea cannot be his starting goalkeeper. He stuck it out with him for a whole season. Having a technical goalkeeper is absolutely essential these days. De Gea had to go, no matter what. Also, whether you are ETH out or not, it doesn't matter regarding this situation: most managers would identify DDG's weaknesses as a major issue on day 1 and the search for a new goalkeeper would've started with basically any manager in charge.
If not pressing the keeper was the optimal choice for disrupting build up then teams would simply stop pressing the keeper entirely, it wouldn't be an Onana specific tactic. It's not that straight forward to cut off passing angles regardless of whether you're pressing the keeper or not - football is a dynamic sport and build up is all about bypassing the pressure from the player that presses and creating passing angles through movement and positional rotations. The problem is we're not smart enough to do the latter.
Pep admitted that the keeper was a wildcard and his ability on the ball would negate pressing effectiveness - they didn't press him because they could not (or rather the risk / reward ratio is not in their favor - if Onana manages to bypass pressure from, say, Haaland, Inter would immediately have the man advantage and will be able to break the press easily resulting in a counter attack). Inter still had a decent amount of the ball and were able to build up fine that game.
I like Onana but he has to be on the chopping block if our new CEO is to be believed along with:
Antony
Martial
Casameiro (age)
Sancho
Eriksen
McTominay
Antony
Martial
Casameiro (age)
Sancho
Eriksen
McTominay
How would we know if he never plays? Though I wouldn't put it past EtH to play Heaton this weekend.
Inclined to agree with this but I also believe we could have saved the money spent on Onana and promoted Kovar who was also very comfortable in a possession based system. I know Ten Hag wanted to make a change but it seems that we zeroed in on Onana very early on and no alternative would do and we were sold the idea that this was because he was so much better than the alternatives despite some less than flattering reports from those who had seen him regularly for Ajax. The evidence from his time here so far suggests that he is not the player we were told he was and the eye test reveals a player who has some worrying flaws in his technique and who is desperately uncomfortable coming for the ball at corners which has been the death knell for many continental keepers moving to the PL.
I think you might be right. He's been an expensive player in more ways than one.
A sensible post. Reasonable minds can disagree on whether it was time to get rid of De Gea, but once the decision to withdraw the contract offer -- that, to be fair, De Gea dithered over for months -- which was disgraceful business practice on the part of the club, we had better options than Onana, who was flying high with his magical performance against City. Yet ETH was determined to bring in Onana despite warning signs about his professionalism and consistency, so he did, and Onana vindicated those concerns beginning in pre-season.
If getting rid of De Gea was absolutely essential, we had a much better option than Andre Onana -- Diogo Costa. Yes he would have cost more than Onana, but Costa simply is the better keeper. And he's three years younger, 24. Costa is, in every sense, the quintessential modern keeper whose command of the box is outstanding and makes top saves.
But back to your point, we could and should have saved the money and promoted Kovar, who by all accounts -- including that of Xabi Alonso -- has been outstanding for Bayer Leverkusen. I get the fear of promoting a promising young keeper and seeing him fail, but ETH should have also understood that Onana was no sure thing either. He has been erratic in his career and at 27 he is set in his ways, and now here we are stuck with a keeper who has become a meme who has disgraced us in European competition and in no way has our competitors in the PL in awe of our keeper.
Typical case of hindsight always being 20/20, but had we got Costa instead, after every howler or mistake he would make, ETH and the scouting department would've been criticized about how he's shown that he's prone to them at the World Cup, and why didn't we get Onana instead, as he's doing well for Inter and was MOTM against City in a CL final. You just know how the United fanbase is.
Same with Hojlund. Clearly a great player but people who can't judge talent just regurgitate the stats that strengthen their argument, but had he went to PSG, City, Arsenal or Liverpool, he would be on double digits already in the league, and the club and the manager would be fools for letting another hidden gem talent go to a rival like Álvarez...that's what this forum would say.
The reality is that Costa and Onana were by far the 2 best candidates to replace De Gea based on their reputation and age. There's no evidence that Costa wouldn't have cost us points the way Onana has done, and it's very likely that Onana would be doing as well for Inter as he did in his only season there.
I don't rate him and have seen enough where he'll have to become a totally different keeper to convince he's at the level. In a team that by the managers admission is preferential to transitions, it's not a surprise he's been a poor performer this season.
It does reflect terribly on the clubs recruitment and the managers own suitability in assessing talent because it's not an area that's short for options, there are countless choices across varied leagues where a consensus could have been made.
It does reflect terribly on the clubs recruitment and the managers own suitability in assessing talent because it's not an area that's short for options, there are countless choices across varied leagues where a consensus could have been made.
Dude will live of that CL final perfomance his whole career.
Inter bought Sommer for peanuts and they never looked back.
Inter bought Sommer for peanuts and they never looked back.
You can't use the "hindsight is always 20/20" argument. There is never a guarantee with any new player. Veron had all the credentials, but he was a flop for us. Carrick was promising, but no one foresaw him ever becoming a United legend.
The calls for Costa over Onana before Onana was signed were very loud, as were concerns about Onana not being up to the demands of the PL. Yes of course it looks clear now, but it also looked clear then as well. Apart from that one performance against City the case for Onana was actually pretty weak and it turns out that the concerns about Onana before he signed for United have been vindicated by his performances, which have been, to put it mildly, disappointing.
As for Hojlund, it's a vastly different analysis. Onana is 27 and was expected to be the polished gem, a world class keeper who would substantially improve our possession and the number of chances created. Hojlund is only 20 and was understood by everyone to the raw gem to be polished under ETH. There's no way to know how Hojlund would have performed for City, Arsenal or Liverpool but in each case they already had established strikers that Hojlund could play behind and be cultivated, whereas with United he was thrust into the spotlight right away even though everyone understood he was nowhere near ready for it. His slow start was expected and we're being appropriately patient with him because of his age, whereas with Onana youth and inexperience in no way can be used as excuses for his performances and behavior this season.
https://tribuna.com/amp/en/news/man...ave-success-rate-at-afcon-after-two-rounds-0/
this is just horrific reading.
this is just horrific reading.
A 0% save rate is not impressive, no matter what Onana’s apologists may argue.
Honestly, I could see if he was a youngster, and made out to save the team/season/job of the manager (like Hojlund..) but he's not a great, future prospect. He's 27 and should be entering his prime in a few years. If this is as good as he gets, it's not the right goalie for us.
I said we would regret getting rid of DeGea. For all his supposed faults, his numerous saves per match kept us in games. This isnt happening with Onana, and thats why i predicted our lowest league position in years this season.
Lets see what happens.
Lets see what happens.
People over here were crying last year for a keeper who was “good with his feet” even if he wasn’t good at shot stopping. You got what you wanted, someone who “can play from the back”, but can’t stop shots for his life sake. The damage Guardiola made to the keeper position is extreme: what matters most in a keeper is shot stopping ability, not “being good with his feet”, we are talking about a keeper not a goddamn midfielder.
I wasn’t crying, I wanted De Gea to sign a renewal!
Meanwhile Kovar is starting for top of the league Leverkusen after we let him go for £7m. Another Ten Hag masterclass.
Benched again by NT
Why’s he not playing for Cameroon?
I've only heard good things about him. Now Onana is a different matter
Cos he’s shite and shipped 3 goals in their second group game. Song has no qualms dropping him after they fell out. Maybe his late arrival at the tournament has something to do with it too.
Don't worry, there's a private jet on standby to bring him back if they go out tonight. Like straight away, no time to get changed or anything.