Our back four this year and beyond

Green_Red said:
Rio joined in 02 and in 05 was still considered a flop by most fans. I clearly remember a red issue in 05 that listed all Fergies flops and Rio was top of the list
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Yeah i clearly don't remember that at all. Could be wrong but he had fairly decent/good seasons alongside Silvestre first and then he and Brown had a pretty good partnership around 04-05. Yes after that alongside with Vidic he became one of the best in the world, no doubt Vidic helped but he was just naturally maturing as a player also. Defenders usually peak in their mid to late 20's.

Anything written in red issue isn't even worth discussing to be honest, cover to cover bullshit for the most part that represents the opinions of only a section of the fanbase.
 
kundalini said:
I agree with your analysis. Our defensive record is due to our tendency to sit on the ball, running down the clock, typically with the score 0-0. We do look extremely vulnerable whenever we attempt to defend a lead in the last 15 mins and in other situations, such as being organised against a counter-attack when we have a corner.

However, I still believe we have the players within our squad to play at a higher tempo. For instance, I would cull nearly all the slow players (Carrick, Fellaini, Mata, Rooney), keep Blind but not necessarily select him all the time. In their place, promote younger players who can run about a bit, hopefully stopping more attacks at source.

I don't believe in Smalling + Blind as a partnership for every situation. To some extent, the injuries to Jones and Shaw may have left LVG with few alternatives, if Rojo is playing left-back. Blind's lack of pace and height concerns me.

My main point is that I much prefer to have several options then select on merit, rather than bring in an expensive new signing who has to be picked because he cost £35m.
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like Otamendi :lol:
 
Solid:
Shaw
Smalling
Blind

- I think a RB is needed. I also think Rojo/Jones should leave so another CB also.

- Mensah is doing extremely well but he is too good to be a full-back. Hope to see him operate in midfield in the future.
 
We have loads of good CBs coming through. Don't hire mourinho, hire someone who will look at the youth team and try to bring tuanzebe and ro-shaun through in coming 2-3 seasons. Smalling Shaw and whoever at rb, don't write darmian off yet I guess.

If we hire mourinho then he'll probably make a solid defense out of our current options, with someone more defensive at right back.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We have loads of good CBs coming through. Don't hire mourinho, hire someone who will look at the youth team and try to bring tuanzebe and ro-shaun through in coming 2-3 seasons. Smalling Shaw and whoever at rb, don't write darmian off yet I guess.

If we hire mourinho then he'll probably make a solid defense out of our current options, with someone more defensive at right back.
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If we don't win anything in the next 2-3 years the likes of Martial and De Gea would definitely be off and then we're dangerously close to being the new Arsenal. The nice thing about having players so young pushing for first team places is that they could all be packed off on loan for 3 years and still have plenty of time to make an impact if / when a new manager arrived after the next one.
 
The thing with Darmian Is that he has absolutely no stand out attacking qualities to speak of. His crossing is average at best, he isnt a very good dribbler or at running with the ball, doesnt overlap the best, is pretty slow and weak, etc... maybe having mata in front of him hinders him, but its not his defensive ability that has me doubting him. Hopefully he improves a lot next season with a winger in front of him, but he is nowhere near Rafael in terms of quality.

Left back is more then set, so long as shaw recovers normally.

Center back only has Smalling as a clear starter and blind/fosu mensah as possibly cover players, though Mourinho would use blind elsewhere probably. So that definitely needs fixing. Even smalling isn't without his problems. We essentially play smalling there for his height and power and he attacks every single loose ball and cross and covers for blind in that regard. Blind on the other hand takes all om the ball responsibility since smalling is pretty shit with his passing.
They're both like half players, missing a significant part of their game and the other covering for what the other lacks. Would be a lot more beneficial having both defenders capable of being that power at the back and have the ball playing ability (like rio and vidic were)
 
I think one of our biggest problem this season in our defense was we haven't settle our back four. Smalling and Blind have a good season together so far but we have been missing a proper fullback in our back four.
We have been missing Luke Shaw for two seasons in a row and we replaced him with the likes of Rojo who is not a proper full back at all and when CBJ is about to step up he also end up in the list of our injury. Can we trust both Shaw and CBJ fitness next season? If I am the manager I probably won't take this risk again for third season in a row and it's time for us to get a proper left back who can push Shaw. I will go for Cresswell or Azpilicueta.
And once again, ever since 2013/2014 we have been missing Rafael 2012/2013. Valencia and Young aren't a fullback for starting eleven. Darmian looked awful. Varela looked awful in one on one situation. None of these players are proper good quality right back for our starting eleven. Should we go for Mensah as our right back next season?
I am not really afraid with our centre back option. What we need is "World Class" to upgrade Blind but there is none available. As for youngster, I think we can say it's not a big issue when we have plenty option like RoShaun Williams and Tuanzebe or even TFM. Developing them is much better than spending 50m on overpriced and unproven John Stones and Laporte.

Next season:
Azpilicueta (TFM/Darmian) - Smalling (RoShaun Williams/TFM) - Blind (Rojo) - Shaw (Azpilicueta/CBJ)
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We have loads of good CBs coming through. Don't hire mourinho, hire someone who will look at the youth team and try to bring tuanzebe and ro-shaun through in coming 2-3 seasons. Smalling Shaw and whoever at rb, don't write darmian off yet I guess.

If we hire mourinho then he'll probably make a solid defense out of our current options, with someone more defensive at right back.
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Who?

What about van Gaal? He has done that!
 
Mike09 said:
I think one of our biggest problem this season in our defense was we haven't settle our back four. Smalling and Blind have a good season together so far but we have been missing a proper fullback in our back four.
We have been missing Luke Shaw for two seasons in a row and we replaced him with the likes of Rojo who is not a proper full back at all and when CBJ is about to step up he also end up in the list of our injury. Can we trust both Shaw and CBJ fitness next season? If I am the manager I probably won't take this risk again for third season in a row and it's time for us to get a proper left back who can push Shaw. I will go for Cresswell or Azpilicueta.
And once again, ever since 2013/2014 we have been missing Rafael 2012/2013. Valencia and Young aren't a fullback for starting eleven. Darmian looked awful. Varela looked awful in one on one situation. None of these players are proper good quality right back for our starting eleven. Should we go for Mensah as our right back next season?
I am not really afraid with our centre back option. What we need is "World Class" to upgrade Blind but there is none available. As for youngster, I think we can say it's not a big issue when we have plenty option like RoShaun Williams and Tuanzebe or even TFM. Developing them is much better than spending 50m on overpriced and unproven John Stones and Laporte.

Next season:
Azpilicueta (TFM/Darmian) - Smalling (RoShaun Williams/TFM) - Blind (Rojo) - Shaw (Azpilicueta/CBJ)
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Why would Chelsea sell him?
 
Green_Red said:
Rio joined in 02 and in 05 was still considered a flop by most fans. I clearly remember a red issue in 05 that listed all Fergies flops and Rio was top of the list
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He was in the pfa team of the year for 04/05 so I don't think calling him a flop then would have been justified
He missed the drugs test in 03 and was banned for 8 months from Jan 04 if I recall correctly as well?
 
I'd be very happy with a Darmian -- Smalling -- Stones -- Shaw back 4 next season. If we bring a new manager in, I expect Darmian to flourish.
 
Mike09 said:
True there is no reason why would Chelsea sell him but why would he wants to stay at Chelsea who doesn't have any europe competition next season?
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Because they'll probably be in it again the year after. He's first choice, probably on good wages, and he's playing for an ambitious club. And were unlikely to be in the CL next season.
 
Gopher Brown said:
Because they'll probably be in it again the year after. He's first choice, probably on good wages, and he's playing for an ambitious club. And were unlikely to be in the CL next season.
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Well that's probably. But at the same time they might lose Hazard, Courtouis and other players and not to mention they need to find replacement for Terry. It's not going to be easy to challenge Champion League spot again next season.
If he's at United he will be first choice as well. We will offer him higher wage to attract him and we are also an ambitious club. And if the rumour of Mourinho is true then that will also increase the chance of us getting him if Mourinho is looking for a fullback.
 
If we keep de gea we could have 4 sacks of potato for all we care
 
I'm ok at right back. Between Valencia Darmian Varela and currently Fosu-Mensah we have a good mix in style and experience. Valencia is decent cover and in a few years and Fosu-Mensah transitions to CB, we may need to head to the market depending how the others develop.

I'm very happy with our LB options, namely Shaw and Borthwick-Jackson. Rojo needs to feck off really, I think he's an awful player. The good thing is with Blind having the ability to move to LB in a crisis and Darmian also able to cover there, we have both quality and depth. And can get rid of Rojo.

At CB, I like Smalling. And Blind is good there too. Jones is reasonable cover, and eventually I see Fosu-Mensah going there. I do think we can add quality here though. I don't see McNair as a long term option.

It's important to note that he stats don't really show our quality. They make us look better than we are in my view. If we ever go back to playing attacking proper football perhaps they'd be more exposed. It seems right now they are good but also being over supported by our style of play. Also need to remember DDG bails these guys out so often, though I don't necessarily mind - he's a goalie and it's his job to save shots so it is what it is. Would be mighty concerned if he left though.

Overall I think we have good foundations and perhaps an investment in a top quality CB with experience for th next couple of years while Fosu-Mensah develops would be ideal.
 
rpitroda said:
I'm ok at right back. Between Valencia Darmian Varela and currently Fosu-Mensah we have a good mix in style and experience. Valencia is decent cover and in a few years and Fosu-Mensah transitions to CB, we may need to head to the market depending how the others develop.

I'm very happy with our LB options, namely Shaw and Borthwick-Jackson. Rojo needs to feck off really, I think he's an awful player. The good thing is with Blind having the ability to move to LB in a crisis and Darmian also able to cover there, we have both quality and depth. And can get rid of Rojo.

At CB, I like Smalling. And Blind is good there too. Jones is reasonable cover, and eventually I see Fosu-Mensah going there. I do think we can add quality here though. I don't see McNair as a long term option.

It's important to note that he stats don't really show our quality. They make us look better than we are in my view. If we ever go back to playing attacking proper football perhaps they'd be more exposed. It seems right now they are good but also being over supported by our style of play. Also need to remember DDG bails these guys out so often, though I don't necessarily mind - he's a goalie and it's his job to save shots so it is what it is. Would be mighty concerned if he left though.

Overall I think we have good foundations and perhaps an investment in a top quality CB with experience for th next couple of years while Fosu-Mensah develops would be ideal.
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What makes you think they we will be save in our right back and left back? We have been missing proper full back in our backfour for 2 seasons in a row.

May be I am just underestimating our current right back or may be you are overrating them. From our right back choice so far Fosu-Mensah is the only one deserve to be our starting eleven. But IMO he will play like Alaba's role which is playing both in midfield and defense so there is no guarantee he will stay as our right back for so long despite of the talent he has for being versatility.
Player like Valencia isn't a natural right back and he doesn't defend like right back. To me he's right midfield or winger who offer balance in both offence and defense. Right back is his backup choice.
Darmian is to me just hasn't show any quality to be our starting eleven right back. He's slow, inconsistent and worst in term of going forward compared to our current right back options. I wouldn't mind to see him as a backup but not first choice.
Varela is probably the worst one in term of defending especially in one on one situation. He can still improve as he hasn't reach his peak yet. But I have to admit that his crossing is deadly. I won't mind to try him as a right midfield or winger.
Either we are going to stick with Fosu-Mensah as a right back or sign a new one.

As for left back. Ever since Evra left, we have been playing a non proper left back for 2 seasons in a row. Are we going to take another risk for 3rd season? I like Shaw-CBJ but as Shaw has been injured so many times, we might need a better backup and to me CBJ hasn't show enough for consistency.
 
Mike09 said:
What makes you think they we will be save in our right back and left back? We have been missing proper full back in our backfour for 2 seasons in a row.

May be I am just underestimating our current right back or may be you are overrating them. From our right back choice so far Fosu-Mensah is the only one deserve to be our starting eleven. But IMO he will play like Alaba's role which is playing both in midfield and defense so there is no guarantee he will stay as our right back for so long despite of the talent he has for being versatility.
Player like Valencia isn't a natural right back and he doesn't defend like right back. To me he's right midfield or winger who offer balance in both offence and defense. Right back is his backup choice.
Darmian is to me just hasn't show any quality to be our starting eleven right back. He's slow, inconsistent and worst in term of going forward compared to our current right back options. I wouldn't mind to see him as a backup but not first choice.
Varela is probably the worst one in term of defending especially in one on one situation. He can still improve as he hasn't reach his peak yet. But I have to admit that his crossing is deadly. I won't mind to try him as a right midfield or winger.
Either we are going to stick with Fosu-Mensah as a right back or sign a new one.

As for left back. Ever since Evra left, we have been playing a non proper left back for 2 seasons in a row. Are we going to take another risk for 3rd season? I like Shaw-CBJ but as Shaw has been injured so many times, we might need a better backup and to me CBJ hasn't show enough for consistency.
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Regarding right back I'm not sure you read my post properly so I'll leave that. I've clearly said that we may need to go to market if the others don't develop once Fosu-Mensah moves to his correct position. That's implicit that currently they aren't good enough. I do think they are sufficient as back ups. Not to mention we have more problems to fix.

Regarding left back, Shaw's injury wasn't a niggling injury. It was a one off out of his control, not like his other injuries. I like Borthwick Jackson, so let's agree to disagree about him.
 
Need a new CB to partner Smalling and a new starting RB.

First choice: New RB, Smalling, New CB, Shaw
Back-ups's: Varela/Valencia, Jones, Blind, one of the young CB's, BJ.
 
New centre back. Maybe two. Jones and Rojo out.

I think right back is okay between Valencia, Darmian and Varela for now. I think we are still yet to see the best of Darmian and don't think he should be axed so quickly. It's been a horrible season for nearly every outfield player, so it's difficult to judge. I'd give him another year. He started very well for us, and that back four of Darmian, Smalling, Blind and Shaw was very solid until the injuries started happening and the full back position became a revolving door. Varela has a lot of quality and a lot of time to improve. Not a pressing issue, for me.

Left back should be okay, as Shaw missing the entire season was a freak occurrence. Between Shaw and Borthwick-Jackson it should be fine, along with the likes of Darmian and Blind who can step in.

I'm a huge fan of Blind, and he's done very well at CB, better than most expected, but we definitely need more quality there. We've been very fortunate with Smalling and Blind's fitness. I don't know who would be playing there if they weren't fit.

I'd like to see McNair get a loan and play every week. He's definitely talented, but there's been no middle ground with him. He either has a very good game, or he is so bad that he is hooked at half time, but he always seems to play once, and then he's gone for weeks. He needs some continuity. Wherever he ends up, I really don't think it should be at fullback though.


The dream is to finish a game with the same back four that started it. Phwoar :drool:
 
OnlyTwoDaSilvas said:
New centre back. Maybe two. Jones and Rojo out.

I think right back is okay between Valencia, Darmian and Varela for now. I think we are still yet to see the best of Darmian and don't think he should be axed so quickly. It's been a horrible season for nearly every outfield player, so it's difficult to judge. I'd give him another year. He started very well for us, and that back four of Darmian, Smalling, Blind and Shaw was very solid until the injuries started happening and the full back position became a revolving door. Varela has a lot of quality and a lot of time to improve. Not a pressing issue, for me.

Left back should be okay, as Shaw missing the entire season was a freak occurrence. Between Shaw and Borthwick-Jackson it should be fine, along with the likes of Darmian and Blind who can step in.

I'm a huge fan of Blind, and he's done very well at CB, better than most expected, but we definitely need more quality there. We've been very fortunate with Smalling and Blind's fitness. I don't know who would be playing there if they weren't fit.

I'd like to see McNair get a loan and play every week. He's definitely talented, but there's been no middle ground with him. He either has a very good game, or he is so bad that he is hooked at half time, but he always seems to play once, and then he's gone for weeks. He needs some continuity. Wherever he ends up, I really don't think it should be at fullback though.


The dream is to finish a game with the same back four that started it. Phwoar :drool:
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How many times has LVG changed the back 4 I wonder this season mid game.....I'm surprised the Media hasn't picked up on his tinkerman tactics
 
RedorDead21 said:
How many times has LVG changed the back 4 I wonder this season mid game.....I'm surprised the Media hasn't picked up on his tinkerman tactics
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I don't even think it can even be counted as tinkering. It's just constant rotation. So many games we have seen both full backs get subbed. It's maddening that we waste subs on defensive ones when we need attacking impact and goals.
 
rpitroda said:
Regarding right back I'm not sure you read my post properly so I'll leave that. I've clearly said that we may need to go to market if the others don't develop once Fosu-Mensah moves to his correct position. That's implicit that currently they aren't good enough. I do think they are sufficient as back ups. Not to mention we have more problems to fix.

Regarding left back, Shaw's injury wasn't a niggling injury. It was a one off out of his control, not like his other injuries. I like Borthwick Jackson, so let's agree to disagree about him.
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Yea but like how long are we going to wait until we know if the others don't develop? By the time we are waiting, we may be end up out from Champion League spot due to our full back issue that means again no progress in our fullback position. Your assumption is just taking another big risk. We have no proper right back who can play consistently in our starting eleven since Moyes came (3 seasons already) and we have no proper left back in our starting eleven since Evra left (2 seasons already) and the reasons are because we are waiting Rafael to develop and don't have a proper backup for Shaw. At the end of the day we sold Rafael.
 
Mike09 said:
Yea but like how long are we going to wait until we know if the others don't develop? By the time we are waiting, we may be end up out from Champion League spot due to our full back issue that means again no progress in our fullback position. Your assumption is just taking another big risk. We have no proper right back who can play consistently in our starting eleven since Moyes came (3 seasons already) and we have no proper left back in our starting eleven since Evra left (2 seasons already) and the reasons are because we are waiting Rafael to develop and don't have a proper backup for Shaw. At the end of the day we sold Rafael.
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Yes it's a risk. What isn't? Our forays into the transfer market also show there is no slam dunk.

Frankly, if you go by the logic that we shouldn't bank on potential or take a chance to let it flourish, then we need close to a brand new starting 11. It's neither practical, nor the best approach, in my opinion.
 
Mensa, Smalling, Blind, Shaw. Looks like a very good young defense IMO. Thats if Shaw comes back from his injury as the same player though which is always a big if with that sort of injury.
 
So would you be happy with a back five next season, whoever is manager, of De Gea, Shaw, Smalling, Blind, Valencia?
 
I think Rojo added £10mil to Blinds value today.
 
TheReligion said:
So would you be happy with a back five next season, whoever is manager, of De Gea, Shaw, Smalling, Blind, Valencia?
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Yes. Defending hasn't been our problem this season. I'd still like us to bring in another CB so that Blind can be used elsewhere if needed.

But the bulk of our transfer budget should be spent on a right winger and a striker
 
TheReligion said:
So would you be happy with a back five next season, whoever is manager, of De Gea, Shaw, Smalling, Blind, Valencia?
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It's as good as anything else in the league (assuming Shaw comes back well) but i'd probably get someone more dominant in the air to replace Blind to improve it. Valencia should be comfortably first choice right back.
 
Just curious, why has everyone gone so cold on McNair? He was a real player last year at times and was getting a lot of praise.
 
Mr Smith said:
Just curious, why has everyone gone so cold on McNair? He was a real player last year at times and was getting a lot of praise.
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He's not really a composed ball player. A lot of people this season seem to be prioritizing being good on the ball over actual defensive ability. Not to say McNair has been fantastic. He looks green at this level imo.
 
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