Our team identity/team cohesion

[poisson]

I think we need to write this season off in terms of winning the league. Any cup trophies would be a bonus.

Next season, when Moyes gets the players he wants and gets the team playing the way he wants is when we should be challenging.

 

[Hannibal]

I think we need to write this season off in terms of winning the league. Any cup trophies would be a bonus.

Next season, when Moyes gets the players he wants and gets the team playing the way he wants is when we should be challenging.

The winning mentality has to be ingrained before you can even talk of Moyes getting the players he wants. If Moyes has Gundogan, Iniesta & Xavi in his squad, he would bench them for Valencia, Welbeck & Jones. He cannot even inspire his team to hold to a league. At 2-1, I was expecting to see players built to counterattack & punish the risks Cardiff were going to take at the death - I thought wrong!!!

 

[Il Prete Rosso]

A clearout wouldnt hurt. Watching us this season is just fecking painful. I don't even care anymore whether we win, but just hope that we finally play some proper football, but we don't.

A lot of deadwood in the team. Get rid and get quality in.

The problem with a clearout is finding clubs who's willing to purchase the players you don't need, especially if they're still under contract.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I sometimes do wonder how much we work on short passing interchanges as compared to other teams. We're awful at it. Players constantly needing a few extra touches, other players not making themselves available, the guy on the ball not taking options if they're even slightly surrounded by defenders.

 

[Will Absolute]

A lot could have been done this summer, but, unfortunately, DM used his recent arrival and 'lack of familiarity' with the players - as if he'd just landed from Mars rather than a few miles down the road - as an excuse to do nothing. As it turned out, that inertia was something we couldn't afford.

If he's been managing Everton with blinkers on for the last few years, and really didn't know much about our players, he could have taken the views of the existing staff about personnel changes. I suppose he assumed he had plenty of time, which may not be the case.

 

[Rozay]

The problem we have isn't that complex in my view, it is largely down to rubbish football players.


Ans by rubbish, I am exaggerating and mean 'not good enough'

 

[Bestie07]

The problem we have isn't that complex in my view, it is largely down to rubbish football players.


Ans by rubbish, I am exaggerating and mean 'not good enough'

It's really not that. Teams like Southampton and Everton seem to have an identity and a way they seemingly want to play. They don't have better players than us while we seem to have no gameplan as such.

 

[Aboutreika18]

It's not so much about quality of players as it is our footballing philosophy. Or lack of it these days.

 

[kouroux]

I think we need to write this season off in terms of winning the league. Any cup trophies would be a bonus.

Next season, when Moyes gets the players he wants and gets the team playing the way he wants is when we should be challenging.

Since Moyes appointment, I've been thinking that a top 4 place would be a great achievement and it was before all the summer stuff. More than ever I think that it would be a good achievement by the end of the season in the league.

 

[Commadus]

Combination of average midfielders and a nothing manager. Our defence and attack are world class, our midfield is not.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's really not that. Teams like Southampton and Everton seem to have an identity and a way they seemingly want to play. They don't have better players than us while we seem to have no gameplan as such.

Exactly. The poor players claim is simply untrue.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

It's not necessarily poor players as such, perhaps more the wrong players in midfield. Other than Carrick the players we have (combined with the way we set them up) in CM just aren't going to provide the lovely passing game we all seem to want. If our wingers were firing then the good old counter game would be on except we miss a Scholes in there to get the ball up and out to them.

 

[Amir]

It's not so much about quality of players as it is our footballing philosophy. Or lack of it these days.

Indeed. We don't look like a team, just a bunch of individuals playing off the cuff. It's not that we're playing negative or defensive football. It's just bad.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's not so much about quality of players as it is our footballing philosophy. Or lack of it these days.

This, IMO.

 

[Rozay]

Oh I agree we have a collective problem. I'm just not sure we have the individuals to change it to one that will be better.

 

[Kag]

It's really not that. Teams like Southampton and Everton seem to have an identity and a way they seemingly want to play. They don't have better players than us while we seem to have no gameplan as such.

Exactly. The notion that a squad boasting the likes of De Gea, Rafael, Evans, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Kagawa, Januzaj, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez and Van Persie can't collectively work together as a team, with an identity, with some progressive, exciting and possession-orientated football due to an inherent lack of ability is fecking laughable. This squad is jam-packed with talent.

If midfielders like Wanyama, Steven Davis and Lallana at Southampton, Barry, Osman and Barkley at Everton, and Britton, De Guzman and Jonjo bloody Shelvey at Swansea can pass the ball effectively, there's no reason why our current midfield, even in it's relatively average state, cannot do the same. Unfortunately, this identity stems from the management and coaching. And with each passing game, all I am seeing is a manager that doesn't even value these characteristics. He'd sooner see his players hoof it up the pitch and bypass the midfield altogether. The likes of Fabregas would be wasted here at the moment.

 

[Kag]

Oh I agree we have a collective problem. I'm just not sure we have the individuals to change it to one that will be better.

We do. That's why inferior players at inferior clubs can manage just fine. We don't have the manager, that's the problem.

 

[Rozay]

We do. That's why inferior players at inferior clubs can manage just fine. We don't have the manager, that's the problem.

It isn't just about 'inferior' and 'superior'. It is about the right players. We have players suited to playing 442. And in any case, not all the lesser teams in the league that play better football have inferior midfield players anyway.

 

[Amir]

Unfortunately, this identity stems from the management and coaching. And with each passing game, all I am seeing is a manager that doesn't even value these characteristics. He'd sooner see his players hoof it up the pitch and bypass the midfield altogether. The likes of Fabregas would be wasted here at the moment.

While I agree management and coaching is the problem, I doubt Moyes has been looking at the way we've been playing thinking: Yep, well done, that's the way I want it. He may not be after brilliant football, but what we're producing isn't conservative or old style. It's just crap. I'm sure he'd like to see us playing differently. I don't know why it isn't happening.

Also, we're seeing the same problems we've seen under Sir Alex for a while. We're just not getting the results - that's the main difference.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Why did anyone expect us to employ a pass and move philosophy when Dave came in? Did you guys even watch Everton? You get in a coach with the philosophy of football you want to see, its clear we weren't planning on moving away from this type of football hence we hired Moyes.

 

[roseguy64]

ANd hopefully people won't bring up the argument that it takes time to change things. Martinez at Everton and Pep at Bayern have made immediate changes at their clubs with the majority of the squads of last season and the players have taken to it quickly. Hopefully he'll realise sooner rather than later what he needs to do and does a Rodgers and adjusts his plans.

 

[Lawman]

Hard when we have Smalling at full back and Rio at centre back both them struggle to pass the ball nowadays. Then we have Fellaini and Cleverley who are devoid of any confidence. Then we have the Rooney dilemma of having to play him behind the striker and that leaves us outnumbered in our weakest area!

 

[Kag]

Hard when we have Smalling at full back and Rio at centre back both them struggle to pass the ball nowadays. Then we have Fellaini and Cleverley who are devoid of any confidence. Then we have the Rooney dilemma of having to play him behind the striker and that leaves us outnumbered in our weakest area!

All of which Moyes himself can change by not playing Smalling at full back, not playing Rio at centre half, and then actually operating with a genuine #10 that can link the midfield and attack. Our problems are self-inflicted.

It isn't just about 'inferior' and 'superior'. It is about the right players. We have players suited to playing 442. And in any case, not all the lesser teams in the league that play better football have inferior midfield players anyway.

Such as? Look, it may be 'hip' to tear into our players at the moment but I still refuse to follow that line of thought. We have the most consistent midfielder in the Premier League over the past two seasons in Carrick. He probably has the best range of passing, with both feet, out of every single midfielder in the division. We have him. Then there's Fellaini. Admittedly, he's out of form, however, this is a player that has been one of the most effective midfielders in the league for around 3 years now. And people can pretend that he "only looked good in the hole" all they like, but the reality is that it isn't true. The vast majority of Everton fans preferred him in the centre of midfield and for good reason. He was good there. Then there's Cleverley. Generally, he's tidy on the ball, has previously shown he can keep the ball, keep it ticking, and make very quick, accurate short passes. They're not world beaters, but they are good footballers. They are more than capable of playing in a system and set up that actually advocates passing the ball to one another. Suggesting otherwise is nonsense.

What it requires is a manager that can get the best out of these players. In Moyes, I see nothing of that. Our players are miles apart. Our defenders are pumping it up the park at any given opportunity. Our wide men get the ball without a hint of an option near, and either run with it and make an arse of things - see Adnan yesterday - or do absolutely nothing at all with it and pass back to the full back - we know who I mean here. With our clear lack of style and ideas, we could throw Xavi into the centre of the park and even he would look relatively useless. What good are these players when the coaches clearly don't instruct our players to actually pass the ball? Do we even work with the ball? Only two weeks ago, Kevin Mirallas was on SSN boasting about how Everton now do a lot more ball work and the training is "less Scottish." I kid you not. Look, I don't want to sit here and tear into Moyes either. But the long balls have increased and our style of football has regressed further. We all know the midfield needs work, but that is no excuse for what we see now. I'm fecking sick of reading about how bad our title winning players are, while our no mark manager needs tens of millions of pounds to "sort them out." He needs a couple of midfielders and could maybe do with a nice, shiny winger. He isn't managing Fulham and he has more than enough resources already to achieve some progressive football that actually involves passing the ball a bit.

If Leon Britton, De Guzman and Jonjo Shelvey can pass the football about, I'm pretty sure Michael Carrick, Tom Cleverley and Shinji Kagawa can.

 

[Raoul]

People keep harping on about needing a midfielder when in reality our biggest problem is what Wenger calls "squad solidarity" (or in this thread, cohesion). Simply put, Moyes must get this group of players to play as he wants them and in the process, instill a sense of solidarity where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Fergie could do it, and Moyes did it well at Everton, and must now replicate it here. At that point, buying the glamorous players often discussed in the transfer forum will actually make a difference.

 

[Rozay]

True, but it may also not be possible to develop the squad and the style with the existing group he has. Like when Rogers went to Liverpool, his ideas would not work with Carroll amongst others. They left, and the likes of Coutinho came in. Only then could you see his plan taking shape. If we don't have the tools, we won't see the vision.

 

[Twigg]

People keep harping on about needing a midfielder when in reality our biggest problem is what Wenger calls "squad solidarity" (or in this thread, cohesion). Simply put, Moyes must get this group of players to play as he wants them and in the process, instill a sense of solidarity where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Fergie could do it, and Moyes did it well at Everton, and must now replicate it here. At that point, buying the glamorous players often discussed in the transfer forum will actually make a difference.

You've articulated my thoughts better than I ever could. We're no longer Fergie's machine, we're in a transitional period from that into what Moyes envisions, from there we can go ahead and buy glamour players.

 

[Isotope]

People keep harping on about needing a midfielder when in reality our biggest problem is what Wenger calls "squad solidarity" (or in this thread, cohesion). Simply put, Moyes must get this group of players to play as he wants them and in the process, instill a sense of solidarity where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Fergie could do it, and Moyes did it well at Everton, and must now replicate it here. At that point, buying the glamorous players often discussed in the transfer forum will actually make a difference.

Exactly. Glad to see fellow fan could see the difference between this season team than last one under Fergie. Moyes is hired not just because for the longevity purpose, but by being able to build a team punching above their individuals ability at Everton. We aren't seeing it right now at United. Knowing and admitting a weakness is the first step on getting it rectified and make it better.

We are not a sugar daddy's club, so we either need to build our own 'world class' players, try to find a bargain, or buying potential. We shouldn't make buying expensive world class players season after season as a habit, as it's not sustainable for a club in debt.

 

[Sky1981]

The way I see it :

1. SAF was an old school, he's been playing 442 since the dawn of ages, and although we shifted into more continental approach, the core of the team lies in wing play and slick counter attack. It'll took a while to dismantle that attitude (or if DM wants, he can continue the tradition, but I doubt it suits his phylosophy)

2. Keane and Scholes weren't replaced until now : we can get away with it due to the generally weaker competition in the EPL back in the 90s, with the arrival of Chelsea and City, it'll take more than just 442 with guts and glory approach (again, Keane wasn't replaced), kinda make sense we're not that dominating in Europe back then.

3. Keane and Scholes, again was the backbone of our play for decades, and much of the teams now have been too accustomed to them playing in the side, and once the motor in the midfield is gone, everyone look clueless.

It's up to DM how he wanted to shape United for the next 5 years, if he wants to persist with the old value he should get 2-3 Midfield to properly function while engraining the collective attitude among other players, or he can incorporate whatever formation he wants. The way I see it, he can't possibly fix this issue this year, and opted for the "beef up defence and pray for now"

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It isn't just about 'inferior' and 'superior'. It is about the right players. We have players suited to playing 442. And in any case, not all the lesser teams in the league that play better football have inferior midfield players anyway.

That's a a myth IMO. Only Valencia is very suited to a 442. Nani, Kagawa, Rooney, rvp, Januzaj etc are all versatile footballers. How are Everton for example well suited to playing the way they are right now?

 

[Sky1981]

Hard when we have Smalling at full back and Rio at centre back both them struggle to pass the ball nowadays. Then we have Fellaini and Cleverley who are devoid of any confidence. Then we have the Rooney dilemma of having to play him behind the striker and that leaves us outnumbered in our weakest area!

Who are they gonna pass to?

Before they have Keane running up and down, Scholes who can keep the ball, then there's options of lumping it to wingers (Ronaldo, Valencia, Giggs all at their prime, and years ago Ronaldo Tevez and Rooney were running the defender all over the park.

Nowdays all it takes is carrick to get marked and we're fecked, there's no team movement whatsoever. Furthermore, Smailing are a CB and Evra is a penetrator down the left, they're abit shit with their ball passing ability. Literally Vidic and Rio have no one to pass the ball other than lump it forward

 

[RedRonaldo]

I strongly felt that in last couple of years Fergie intentionally implant this "waste no time on style and focus on winning the game and doing only what it matters" type of approach and mentality instead. In fact, I was almost convinced it was the ultimate approach and Fergie was the mastermind of greatest tactics known in football. Afterall, how would you defend a team without a style but keep on winning?

 

[Hannibal]

Hard when we have Smalling at full back and Rio at centre back both them struggle to pass the ball nowadays. Then we have Fellaini and Cleverley who are devoid of any confidence. Then we have the Rooney dilemma of having to play him behind the striker and that leaves us outnumbered in our weakest area!

We could buy Yaya Toure, Schweinsteiger & Javi Martinez and still struggle in the midfield. Our biggest problem is the centre-halves. They make life difficult for the midfielders. Rio & Vidic sit too deep because they don't want to be left for dead by pacy wingers. Sitting too deep means our midfielders have to close the gap between the midfield & defence thus isolating our strikers.

One of the reasons Cleverley/Anderson combination worked at the start of 11/12 was because we had Smalling/Jones/Evans in the defence. These defenders are not afraid to push up as they have pace to burn if they were to be under attack. Same cannot be said if any of Vidic or Rio is on the pitch.

I cringe in disbelief when we labour to even pass the ball out from our defence. Rio has to be the laziest player ever with his horrible back-passes to De Gea & De Gea hoofs it out of touch. Lesser mortals like Swansea, Sunderland, West Brom can knock it around with confidence - I dunno why these problems haven't been addressed.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's not just centre backs lacking pace. Pique isn't the quickest nor was terry when Chelsea were at their best under mourinho nor is mertersacker these days. Two of those players teams play good possession football and all three never had problems with regards to fluidity and cohesiveness.

It's more than that for me. You can afford one slow centre back in a fluid cohesive passing system. We don't play vidic and rio that often together these days.

There are many issues. We probably play way too far apart and stretched out as a team to be able to open teams up with short passing. We often don't play with two mobile fullbacks who are comfortable on the ball. We play effectively with a second striker. And finally, our team genuinely looks like don't bother with extensive ball retention training (I find that hard to believe). And then there's the over reliance on wing play that were obsessed with to the point where passing through the middle seems to be of no importance.

 

[Ryan's Beard]

And finally, our team genuinely looks like don't bother with extensive ball retention training (I find that hard to believe). And then there's the over reliance on wing play that were obsessed with to the point where passing through the middle seems to be of no importance.

These. Pretty much everyone one of our players is static and isolated when we have the ball. It's only when it bobbles up to our forwards that we start to look a little bit more fluid.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

These. Pretty much everyone one of our players is static and isolated when we have the ball. It's only when it bobbles up to our forwards that we start to look a little bit more fluid.

What I also find interesting is that if an attacker isn't in a completely free position to the point where the pass is an extremely easy one for him to take, our passer tends not to make the pass and prefer to go sideways or backwards,whereas a lot of top teams trust their passing options to be able to deal with defenders closing them down and essentially find a solution whether that's a first time pass or taking a touch into space or whatever. We simply don't like our players in possession in tight areas.

 

[Rozay]

That's a a myth IMO. Only Valencia is very suited to a 442. Nani, Kagawa, Rooney, rvp, Januzaj etc are all versatile footballers. How are Everton for example well suited to playing the way they are right now?

In addition to Valencia, we have two strikers of starting level. Which means 442.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

In addition to Valencia, we have two strikers of starting level. Which means 442.

This is ultimately what it comes down to. I think our problem is that we're very reliant on key players rather than the fluency of our system. RVP and Rooney are two of the best players in the league and if they're both fit they'll both expect to be starting in important games. To fit them both in without playing them out of position we play 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, which has obvious weaknesses that we've largely gotten away with because of Carrick being class, as well as Rooney and RVP being able to pull something special out of the bag regardless of how well we play as a team.

The issue comes when these players are out for whatever reason, we play the same system with inferior personnel and struggle. I think the question is whether the advantages of setting up the team in a 4-4-2 when everyone's fit outweigh how much our play suffers when we're forced to play the same system with Hernandez for RVP or Fellaini for Carrick.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

In addition to Valencia, we have two strikers of starting level. Which means 442.

Yes, it's the number of strikers really that makes it hard for managers to experiment with formations and systems. There's only so much room to manoeuvre when you have so many good strikers warning games. But I do think we have the squad to play other formations.

 

[Lawman]

We could buy Yaya Toure, Schweinsteiger & Javi Martinez and still struggle in the midfield. Our biggest problem is the centre-halves. They make life difficult for the midfielders. Rio & Vidic sit too deep because they don't want to be left for dead by pacy wingers. Sitting too deep means our midfielders have to close the gap between the midfield & defence thus isolating our strikers.

One of the reasons Cleverley/Anderson combination worked at the start of 11/12 was because we had Smalling/Jones/Evans in the defence. These defenders are not afraid to push up as they have pace to burn if they were to be under attack. Same cannot be said if any of Vidic or Rio is on the pitch.

I cringe in disbelief when we labour to even pass the ball out from our defence. Rio has to be the laziest player ever with his horrible back-passes to De Gea & De Gea hoofs it out of touch. Lesser mortals like Swansea, Sunderland, West Brom can knock it around with confidence - I dunno why these problems haven't been addressed.

I agree with the defence sitting to deep but can't be having this myth of Cleverley and Anderson in reality how many games did they do well together?

 

[Rozay]

This is ultimately what it comes down to. I think our problem is that we're very reliant on key players rather than the fluency of our system. RVP and Rooney are two of the best players in the league and if they're both fit they'll both expect to be starting in important games. To fit them both in without playing them out of position we play 4-4-2/4-4-1-1, which has obvious weaknesses that we've largely gotten away with because of Carrick being class, as well as Rooney and RVP being able to pull something special out of the bag regardless of how well we play as a team.

The issue comes when these players are out for whatever reason, we play the same system with inferior personnel and struggle. I think the question is whether the advantages of setting up the team in a 4-4-2 when everyone's fit outweigh how much our play suffers when we're forced to play the same system with Hernandez for RVP or Fellaini for Carrick.

Spot on.