Why don't you think Alonso is in the top bracket?
Paucity of great centre midfielders today
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Why don't you think Alonso is in the top bracket?
If you're limiting the top bracket to such a small number then he is not in the same class as players like Xavi, Iniesta and Sneijder.
If you are extending the top bracket to include players like Essien, Schweinsteiger, Busquets and Ozil, then by all means include Alonso.
In the thread about definition of world class, I listed Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas and Sneijder as the best centre midfielders. Alonso is just outside that bracket but he is consistently excellent and the best of the rest in my opinion.
Essien was at his rampaging best from 2005-2009. The past two years, injuries took its toll and he has regressed, dropping down a notch or two.
I concur that Schweinsteiger had an outstanding World Cup but in my opinion, he has to show more on a sustained basis before he is regarded as one of the great midfielders of his times. He could reach there in the near future though, I reckon he is still learning his trade as a centre midfielder after being converted by Van Gaal two years ago and his prime is ahead of him.
Mascherano is very good midfield destroyer but he has not improved other aspects of his play and it appears that he has reached his limit/peak in his present standard which is not quite of the quality to make him one of the great midfielders of his times. Comparing him against a fellow Argentine defensive midfielder, Cambiasso reads the game better, wins the ball more cleanly and has superior distribution.
Concur with your opinion that centre midfield is the most important area (I opened a thread on it before)
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/centre-midfield-331510/
If you are including Zidane, Nedved and Rui Costa as CM's then why not include the likes of Ozil in today's times? But I agree with your general consensus that there were much more quality about those times, especially the Redondo, Effenberg, Keane, Vieira type characters
Also, in which section will you put the likes of Gattusso, Riquelme and Pirlo? or were they mid-2000's?
I also think the key is that unforutnately at the turn 2010, alot of the big hitters from the 2000's are entering the twilight of their careers - Gerrard, Lampard, Cambiasso...so what I am saying in conclusion is that I am now confused if I agree or disagree with you
Davids was already in the original list
Ozil has shown plenty of promise and if he continues to progress as he has done so far, he will surely be up there in a year or two.
With regard to Essien and Schweinsteiger, I made my points above
Yes I would place Gattuso, Riquelme and Pirlo in the mid-2000s
5 years ago, in 2006, the crop of quality centre midfielders was richer than today too
Scholes
Kaka
Pirlo
Vieira
Seedorf
Riquelme
Essien
Gerrard
Deco
and some very good ones as well
Ballack
Cambiasso
Lampard
Gattuso
Xavi (at that time)
Alonso (at that time)
Maybe its misplaced nostalgia, but it certainly does feel like there is a drought of top notch central midfielders.
I learnt a new word thanks to this thread 
Seriously it is misplaced nostalgia. If you look at my post on the last page, 3 of the people posted did nothing great after 2001.
Is the premier league the be-all end-all yardstick of judging how good a player is?
Some players struggle to establish themselves in a new league for various reasons - foreign culture, footballing style etc
See Rush at Juventus, Hughes at Barcelona, Papin at Milan, Bergkamp at Inter, Van Der Sar at Juventus
It does not make them lousy players
Did you watch the 1999-2000 Champions League campaign? or at least the game against Real at OT where Redondo was at his imperious best? Redondo was severely hampered by serious injuries at Milan. Quoting his appearance record without context is either down to ignorance or mischief
In 2000, Deschamps was captain of the reigning world champions and led them to triumph at Euro 2000. By the way, Valencia were one of the best teams in Europe then (CL finalist in 2000 and 2001)
When SAF forked out a British record £28.1m for Veron in 2001, he along with many United supporters believed we were signing one of the premier midfielders in the world. His subsequent struggle to settle in England does not change what he was in 2000 - one of the very best midfielders in the world.
Carrick is a very good midfielder but you would struggle to find another person rating him shoulder-to-shoulder alongside those players on the list
No Gattuso?
As of 2000, they were great midfielders.
If Sneijder moves to United and struggled after that, does that mean he was not a great player today?
If Xavi moved to Milan and suffered career threatening injuries before seeing his career peter out, does that mean he was not a great player today?
To be honest, I wasn't watching football abroad much back then, as I was only a child effectively, but you're being very loose in what you define an era. You're going by what the players did throughout their career, rather than what they did in that specific year. To claim that the "early millennium" was dominated by the players is very misleading, as many of these players had their best players either in the mid 90s or later on than you're claiming.
We all look at previous eras and lump in the best of those eras together. According to wikipedia (I know I know) Redondo didn't play once in the 2000-2001 or 2001-2002 season. It's like me claiming Hargreaves is one of the best midfielders since 2008.
There is always going to be a set number of players who are looked up at as the best in the world at the time. It'll almost always be the same amount of players, as there always needs to be a "best".
Do you think in 2001 that Redondo was thought of as the same as Roy Keane? Or Vieira? Now we look back on their whole career, most certainly we can say they're fantastic players, but no-one would look back on last season and say Scholes was one of the best midfielders on the planet.
please see post #43
If Sneijder and Fabregas belong in the top bracket, then Alonso does aswell. There is no better deep lying CM than him.
Really the way I see it is.
Xavi
The rest.
For Gattuso, see Mascherano. Good destroyer, limited footballer.
See this is what I mean, you're looking through it on the perspective of a career not the year itself. I mean I can remember this year much better than 2000, and in 2006 Scholes missed half the year with that bloody eye problem. In 2006 I think Vieira had just moved to Inter, and was no means one of the best midfielders in the world. You're even struggling to put Gerrard there IMO, after a poor year from Liverpool in general.
Ok that's your opinion. I gave mine. I never said it was hard to comprehend.
If I were looking at the whole careers of players, I would have included the likes of Matthaus, Hagi, Ballack, Makelele and possibly Simeone.
I did not include Matthaus and Hagi, even though they were footballing legends with stellar careers and had continued to represent their countries at Euro 2000, simply because they were no longer performing at a very high level.
I did not include Ballack (age 24 in 2000) and Makelele (age 27 in 2000) simply because they have yet to reach a very high level then.
I did not include Simeone despite his career achievements simply because his quality just fell short of the threshold
And I did not say early millennium which you erroneously claimed I did. I said at the turn of the millennium in 2000. You are the one going on about post-2001 when I gave you examples of the level Redondo, Deschamps and Veron were at in 2000 which I shall regurgitate
The 1999-2000 Champions League campaign, especially the game against United at OT, Redondo was at his imperious best. After he moved to Milan, Redondo was severely hampered by serious injuries in the next few years.
In 2000, Deschamps was captain of the reigning world champions and led them to triumph at Euro 2000.
When SAF forked out a British record £28.1m for Veron in 2001, he along with many United supporters believed we were signing one of the premier midfielders in the world. His subsequent struggle to settle in England does not change what he was in 2000 - one of the very best midfielders in the world.
As of 2000, they were great midfielders performing at a very high level, just as of today the great midfielders performing at a very high level are Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Sneijder and possibly Alonso.
If Sneijder moves to United and struggled after that, does that mean he was not a great player today?
If Xavi moved to Milan and suffered career threatening injuries before seeing his career peter out, does that mean he was not a great player today?
It is not about the best midfielders of each era, it is about great midfielders in each era. Is there a fixed number of great forwards, midfielders and defenders in each era?
Again, as my OP stated explicitly and clearly the list is as of 2000. Redondo as of 2000 is certainly up there with Keane and Vieira. He and Hierro were the main pillars of the Real team that won the Champions League in 1998 and 2000. His subsequent injuries at Milan has nothing to do with how good he was as of 2000. If Iniesta is unfortunate and an injury practically ended his career in 2012, does that mean that he was not a great midfielder as of 2011? To address your Scholes example, he has not been playing at an equivalent level to Xavi, Iniesta on a sustained basis since 2009. The ravages of time but it does not change the fact that he was a great midfielder circa 1998 to 2008 and one of the best players ever to grace the English game.
Iniesta missed months in 2009. So as of 2009, he was not a great midfielder?
Fabregas missed months in 2010. So as of 2010, he was not a great midfielder?
Ditto Ferdinand who has been missing playing time since the 08-09 season and was absent for the majority of the past two years. So as of today or 2010, he is/was not a great defender?
In 2009, Eto'o just moved to Inter (after being unceremoniously dumped by Barcelona to be used as makeweight in the Ibrahimovic transfer) and was shunted to the right wing. So as of 2009, he was not a great striker?
Inter had a poor year, so as of today Sneijder is not a great midfielder?
You are missing the point. It is not a midfielder of the year list. It is a list of great midfielders ie players who have proven their quality and continue to play at a very high level
Lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that
It seems like we might be in the bust part of the boom-bust cycle.
Another factor is perhaps that the game has moved on, midfields and teamwork are better now than they were 10 years ago, and it is harder to stand out. I wonder if the great box to box midfielder is a thing of the past and nowadays the players have more restricted roles.
And another factor could just be nostalgia. Was Veron really any better than Carrick? He wasn't for Manchester United.
Another factor is perhaps that the game has moved on, midfields and teamwork are better now than they were 10 years ago, and it is harder to stand out. I wonder if the great box to box midfielder is a thing of the past and nowadays the players have more restricted roles.
And another factor could just be nostalgia. Was Veron really any better than Carrick? He wasn't for Manchester United.
That is the discussion i want to stimulate
What are the factors that have contributed to this paucity and the evolution of the roles and types of midfielders in relation to the demands of modern football, changing tactical trends and the prevailing setup of elite teams?
Was Veron a better midfielder than Carrick? Yes
Was Veron better for United than Carrick? No
I shall reiterate a point i made earlier
Some players struggle to establish themselves in a new league for various reasons - foreign culture, footballing style etc
See Rush at Juventus, Hughes at Barcelona, Papin at Milan, Bergkamp at Inter, Van Der Sar at Juventus
It does not make them lousy players
Excellent post
Decent points, but Veron was a far better player than Carrick. From 1997 until 2000 he was one of the foremost midfielders in the world and a standout for Argentina at the 1998 World Cup.
Twigg must be on the WUM
what is this word paucity of which you speak? great word
maybe its nostalgia but i feel that around 2000 we had better strikers playing as well - ronaldo, rivaldo, raul, morientes, batistuta, balbo, lopez, crespo, inzaghi, trezegol, henry, sheringham, solskjaer, shevchenko, yorkie, romario and eduardo at vasco, ruud at psv, kluivert, del piero, bergkamp, totti, owen and even robbie fowler!
maybe its nostalgia but i feel that around 2000 we had better strikers playing as well - ronaldo, rivaldo, raul, morientes, batistuta, balbo, lopez, crespo, inzaghi, trezegol, henry, sheringham, solskjaer, shevchenko, yorkie, romario and eduardo at vasco, ruud at psv, kluivert, del piero, bergkamp, totti, owen and even robbie fowler!
Thank you
Yes, any football watcher worth his salt in those days would not have an opposing view
I for one was delighted when SAF signed him in 2001 but it was not to be...
paucity means scarcity or fewness in numbers
Shearer, Vieri, Del Piero were also playing in those days
I think the 4-2-3-1 - with two holding midfielders who rarely venture forwards - probably finds room for more technically limited players at the base of the midfield. And coaches keen on that tactical model (Marwijk, Dunga, Mancini) are likely to select two distinct types of midfielders - grizzly ball-winners (e.g. De Jong, Melo) and lightweight playmakers (e.g. Gago, VDV, Silva). And while midfielders have always fallen into those categories, a traditional 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 at the top level would demand better all-round skills from your central pair - see United's Keane/Scholes, Milan's Rijkaard/Ancelotti, Holland's Davids/Cocu.
The 4-2-3-1 formation has gained popularity in the last decade. I agree with you that it allows for specialisation of roles and managers pick distinct types of players to fulfill those roles. Two deeper-lying midfielders shielding the defence offer extra security. When in possession, one of them can hold while the other has more licence to venture forward and support the attack. Over the past few years, it has also gained currency at international level, including among prominent teams such as France, Portugal, Netherlands and most recently Germany at WC 2010. I think it is a viable formation for United. Hernandez upfront supported by the trio of Rooney, Nani and Valencia/Young, with Carrick and Anderson/Fletcher forming the midfield base. Carrick is the only natural holding midfielder in our ranks and we need a long term successor to him, regardless of whether we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1.
I just think you're letting the past effect your judgements.
I really don't think there is going to be much different in the amount of top players in each position in the world. There is always going to be say 2 or 3 in every position who arguably could be seen as "the best in the world" at the moment if you said name the best three central midfield players in the world, I'd say
Xavi,
Iniesta
and potentially one of about 4/5 others. Fabregas. Busquets. Alonso etc etc
But I bet you'd be looking at the same in 2006/2000. I think we can look back at some players and say they're fantastic, and they definitely were. Players like Scholes was never up with the worlds best in 2006 though. And players like Vieira definitely weren't.
I guarentee in 2020 we'll look back and think "in 2009 we had world class players like Scholes playing" or "world class players like Fabregas" when in all fairness he's had a very average season by all accounts.
I think we're being very hard on the current crop of footballers. Especially in central midfield.
From the late 90s, you could add Hierro and Adams. Montero and Frank De Boer were very good and there were solid ones like Couto and Naybet as well
How ironic coming from you who in the last day has managed to slag off Evans and O'Shea, insisted you're not content with being "local" champions and also claimed we don't need to improve our squad as it won't help us beat Barce. I am not on the WUM at all, but one of us is almost certainly a completely clueless muppet.
I disagree. The quality in a given position definitely fluctuates. Full back is probably the clearest example imo. About a decade ago we had Zanetti, Cafu and Thuram all in or close to their prime at right back, plus the likes of Gary Neville and Zambrotta. At left back there was Madlini, Lizarazu and Roberto Carlos all performing at a high level. There's nowhere near the same quality or depth in the full back positions today.
He was in the shortlist for PL POTY and was the best midfielder in the world in 06/07.
No offence meant but if my judgement is affected by the past, may i ask what is your judgment based on?
You first alleged that my judgment was based on what they did in their whole careers. I have disproved that by pointing out to you that I had omitted Matthaus and Hagi from the 2000 list because I deemed them to be no longer performing at a very high level; and that I had omitted Ballack and Makelele from the 2000 list as well as Xavi and Alonso from the 2006 list because they were not yet great midfielders then.
Putting aside the fact that I actually watched and followed these players, I gave you circumstantial evidence which strongly suggest that Redondo, Veron and Deschamps were performing at a very high level as of 2000. And I may add that Redondo was the UEFA club midfielder of the year in 2000. Seeing as now you allege that my judgment is affected by the past, what is that based on and what are you backing up that with?
You are making the same 2-3 world best players argument which I have refuted in earlier posts. I have quoted them below so that you can read through again, one of which was the exact same post which you had just responded to (but this time round i bolded the most relevant point for you). We really should not be going around in circles.
You do not have to take my word for it but you can find out from others who have watched and followed those players, you can borrow tapes, discs since you were too young at that time. As for Scholes and Vieira not being great midfielders as of 2006, i disagree and we shall leave it for people to judge.
Ultimately, I respect your entitlement to your opinion and I will not force mine on you. Cheers!
Perfect archetypal example
With regard to Scholes, it really should not be debatable from 1999-2007 even when his form suffered in 2001-2002 after his position was moved to accommodate Veron in a new system.
Yaya Toure looks on his way to becoming a really top consistent player. Didnt see anyone mention his name here
He was mentioned in one of the earliest posts
Very good player but has to add more strings to his bow in order to make the step up imo
If you are going to include that man\y who were obviously past their peak in 2000,hadn't yet impressed at the highest level, or just not all that great it's not hard to make a comparative list for now:
Torres, Drogba, Villa, Zlatan, Rooney, Van Persie, Muller, Ronaldo, Messi, Higuain, Berbatov, Suarez, Anelka, Forlan, Tevez, Benzema, Pato, Rossi, Lorrente, Eto'o, Totti, Falcao, Cavani, Di Natale, Lisandro Lopez and even Raul!
ffs, Balbo disappeared in the mid 90s.
Well that bald number isn't even half. And it drops to about 30% if you don't include the first season when Benitez was working out he was shit at it and about 15% if you take out home games v weak opposition in the subsequent seasons.
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