Paul Pogba

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devilish said:
And yet you wont find Barca/Real getting players out of retirement and playing defenders in midfield because time and time again they failed to find a quality midfielder on value and must therefore rely on kids to sort CM out wouldn't they? Agents are bitches expecially if they sense some kind of leverage

At the end of the day this is just business. We cant really play the moral card here. I mean there aren't many big clubs who are owned by business men who know nothing about football and who had plunged us into a mountain of debt in a bid of getting the biggest 'brand name' in football.
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Just two or three posts back you were bitching about us not giving Pogba enough games, now you're moaning about us needing to "rely on kids".

If we had spent a load of money on one or more CMs last summer, Pogba would see himself getting even fewer opportunities over the next few years. Which seems to be one of the main reasons you're giving for him wanting to leave.

Make your fecking mind up.
 
devilish said:
We've got a good youth academy and we probably pay better then Le Haivre. However we're not alone. There's life after United just ask Platt and Pique.
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As I said, there were others in for him at the time, he could have joined them and their academies. I'm not doubting there is life after United, I am questioning why someone would join United (or be allowed to join United), one of the biggest clubs in the world where you can't play at a higher standard, become famous in a way that 99% of Celebs could only dream about and make so much money that you won't know what to do with it all, to then want to leave when the door is being opened to all of this?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Just two or three posts back you were bitching about us not giving Pogba enough games, now you're moaning about us needing to "rely on kids".

If we had spent a load of money on one or more CMs last summer, Pogba would see himself getting even fewer opportunities over the next few years. Which seems to be one of the main reasons you're giving for him wanting to leave.

Make your fecking mind up.
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In my opinion, we should have signed a midfielder this summer. Scholes was gone, we knew of Fletch illness and Giggs was growing old. We didnt because we've got Pogba (official excuse to that) and I respect that. Now dont you think that since he's the reason why we didn't sign anyone then we should play him more often? That was my point all along

Anyway my present argument is different to all that. The argument im raising is whether all players around us are being cnuts or if the wage structure needs to be revised.
 
devilish said:
And what makes you think that we're the only club with a good youth academy and faith in kids? Pogba was given bits and pieces in meanigless games. Others may give him more games.

The football world doesn't rotate around Manchester United.
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The question is where do you get the bigger payoff? Ramsey went to Arsenal over us even though he's a United fan. In his eyes, he would get the bigger payoff at Arsenal because he'd be getting more games. For a while, it looked like as if he made the right decision. That injury definitely had an impact on him but even with the amount of games he's had already, doesn't necessarily seem as if he's going to get that big payoff that he expected. We dont know the future and it very well could work out for him later on down the line.

Who knows what it would have been like if he had decided to stay with us. Going to a club to get regular games doesn't necessarily mean that it will be the making of you as a player. Some things have to go your way and right now, Arsenal isn't at that point where a player like Ramsey will get the most out of his career. If they improve in the near future or in 5 years or so, then maybe that will change. A couple years ago, it was all about how he would play a part in Arsenal becoming the best club in the world. Look at where we are now.

So just because Pogba may get more games elsewhere doesn't necessarily mean we were in the wrong for not doing so. No we're not the only club that has a good academy and has faith in kids but we've definitely fared a lot better compared to the ones that do. I think that counts for something.
 
devilish said:
In my opinion, we should have signed a midfielder this summer. Scholes was gone, we knew of Fletch illness and Giggs was growing old. We didnt because we've got Pogba (official excuse to that) and I respect that. Now dont you think that since he's the reason why we didn't sign anyone then we should play him more often? That was my point all along
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SAF knows when to play him, he's quite a successful manager, you know?
 
I feel bad for devilish right now.

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devilish said:
In my opinion, we should have signed a midfielder this summer. Scholes was gone, we knew of Fletch illness and Giggs was growing old. We didnt because we've got Pogba (official excuse to that) and I respect that. Now dont you think that since he's the reason why we didn't sign anyone then we should play him more often? That was my point all along
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We didn't because we had Cleverley, believed Fletcher was coming back, and had a variety of prospects to make the step up, what no one could have forseen was the unbeleivable amount of injuries and illness we were picking up or some of the kids being idiots. Who was there to buy (no Sneijder, no Nasri)?
 
devilish said:
In my opinion, we should have signed a midfielder this summer. Scholes was gone, we knew of Fletch illness and Giggs was growing old. We didnt because we've got Pogba (official excuse to that) and I respect that. Now dont you think that since he's the reason why we didn't sign anyone then we should play him more often? That was my point all along

Anyway my present argument is different to all that. The argument im raising is whether all players around us are being cnuts or if the wage structure needs to be revised.
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Either you do or don't think we should have signed more midfielders in the summer. If you do, then you think we should have done something which gives Pogba fewer opportunities. As such, it's ridiculous to complain about Pogba not being given enough chances.

Besides, the most annoying thing in that whole tangent is that most people complaining about Pogba not featuring enough have barely watched him play. I've watched him loads and I don't think he's ready to feature any more than he has done. What I think doesn't matter, though. Fergie knows exactly how to bring through young players. He's amongst the very best in the world at it. Grinds my gears when you get internet muppets deciding that, actually, they know more than he does about how many games Pogba should/shouldn't have played this season.
 
devilish said:
In my opinion, we should have signed a midfielder this summer. Scholes was gone, we knew of Fletch illness and Giggs was growing old. We didnt because we've got Pogba (official excuse to that) and I respect that. Now dont you think that since he's the reason why we didn't sign anyone then we should play him more often? That was my point all along

Anyway my present argument is different to all that. The argument im raising is whether all players around us are being cnuts or if the wage structure needs to be revised.
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And your point is flawed because in Fergie's eyes, Pogba's not fully ready yet. What do you want the club to do about that? We're now just beginning to get out of a major injury crisis and in the process of giving those players who have been out some game time, but we need to give a youngster who isn't quite ready for first team football more games?

I agree with you that we should have signed a midfielder this summer but guess what? It didn't happen. We cant do anything about that now so at the moment, we're going to have to work with what we have and move on from there. Morrison is no longer on our books and it's possible that the same could happen to Pogba. While this isn't the best situation to be in, we've also got a talented midfielder in Petrucci that hopefully we can see him feature in the next couple of years.

Also, I dont think Pogba is the only reason we didnt buy a midfielder. We were close to buying 2 but neither case worked out for different reasons. Imo, I think we would have signed a CM by now except for the fact that SAF is being particularly picky about who be brings in for that position.

I think our wage structure is fine and that Pogba and Morrison don't necessarily represent the rest of the set of youngsters that we have. Nonetheless, it does present the potential conundrum that we will have to deal with for some time. Like you said it's annoying, but we have to deal with it somehow. I think we've done alright so far.
 
devilish said:
Everyone wants stupid money these days...and yet, you wont here Barca or Real complaining about that and no one is resorting to former retired players and defenders to sort their weak midfield.
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I bet there's a Barcelona version of you bitching about resorting to playing midfielders like Mascherano and Busquets in defence just because the club haven't replaced the ageing Puyol.

You're an unbelievable muppet.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Either you do or don't think we should have signed more midfielders in the summer. If you do, then you think we should have done something which gives Pogba fewer opportunities. As such, it's ridiculous to complain about Pogba not being given enough chances.

Besides, the most annoying thing in that whole tangent is that most people complaining about Pogba not featuring enough have barely watched him play. I've watched him loads and I don't think he's ready to feature any more than he has done. What I think doesn't matter, though. Fergie knows exactly how to bring through young players. He's amongst the very best in the world at it. Grinds my gears when you get internet muppets deciding that, actually, they know more than he does about how many games Pogba should/shouldn't have played this season.
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Agreed, when his time comes, his time will come. It seems like it's the type of advice he's getting though (he should be getting more games). This is why it's key to keep yourself grounded as much as possible.

I think if he takes Rio's advice to heart, then he has an even better chance of staying around.
 
gambit28 said:
We didn't because we had Cleverley, believed Fletcher was coming back, and had a variety of prospects to make the step up, what no one could have forseen was the unbeleivable amount of injuries and illness we were picking up or some of the kids being idiots. Who was there to buy (no Sneijder, no Nasri)?
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Wasn't Nasri all but agreed to join us? We had Clev, Fletch etc at that point didn't we?

My argument here is pretty simple. Is it the case that we're surrounded by cnuts or is it more the case of our wage structure being too rigid at the moment? I never wanted to cause such havoc in this thread.
 
Devilish is alright, I've enjoyed many a long chat with him.Nothing wrong with wanting the best at Old Trafford.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Either you do or don't think we should have signed more midfielders in the summer. If you do, then you think we should have done something which gives Pogba fewer opportunities. As such, it's ridiculous to complain about Pogba not being given enough chances.

Besides, the most annoying thing in that whole tangent is that most people complaining about Pogba not featuring enough have barely watched him play. I've watched him loads and I don't think he's ready to feature any more than he has done. What I think doesn't matter, though. Fergie knows exactly how to bring through young players. He's amongst the very best in the world at it. Grinds my gears when you get internet muppets deciding that, actually, they know more than he does about how many games Pogba should/shouldn't have played this season.
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I think that we used Pogba as an excuse for our failure in not buying. As Gambit said, Nasri's deal was all but sealed but it fecked up in the last minute.

However the Pogba theory is true then we should have played him more, in my opinion
 
devilish said:
Wasn't Nasri all but agreed to join us? We had Clev, Fletch etc at that point didn't we?

My argument here is pretty simple. Is it the case that we're surrounded by cnuts or is it more the case of our wage structure being too rigid at the moment? I never wanted to cause such havoc in this thread.
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If that is your question, then I'd suggest that United's wage structure is fine, and they aren't surrounded by cnuts, rather that footballers in general are quite often surrounded by cnuts, who often have ulterior motives, rather than the happiness and wellbeing of the players.
 
devilish said:
Wasn't Nasri all but agreed to join us? We had Clev, Fletch etc at that point didn't we?

My argument here is pretty simple. Is it the case that we're surrounded by cnuts or is it more the case of our wage structure being too rigid at the moment? I never wanted to cause such havoc in this thread.
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Nasri was in place to join us before the season ended, him and his agent apparently after agreeing to join us tried to renegotiatefor more money or he'd join City where we told him to feck off to City then, We were considering Sneijder and had sounded him and his people out but then Ferguson saw Cleverleys form for us and decided (correctly) that he didn't need Sneijder (including his stupid wage demands) and this lad would do the job and be a first team regular. Going into the season I thought we looked fantastic and all was well, we just couldn't have forseen the injuries.
 
The Neviller said:
If that is your question, then I'd suggest that United's wage structure is fine, and they aren't surrounded by cnuts, rather that footballers in general are quite often surrounded by cnuts, who often have ulterior motives, rather than the happiness and wellbeing of the players.
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Players has always been greedy and we struggled with wage structures before (Edwards time). However dont you think that the fact that we're struggling now, then maybe its time to tweak our wage structure a bit as we did during Kenyon time?
 
devilish said:
Players has always been greedy and we struggled with wage structures before (Edwards time). However dont you think that the fact that we're struggling now, then maybe its time to tweak our wage structure a bit as we did during Kenyon time?
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We have tweaked it though, with Rooney, we just can't afford to pay what the likes of City and Madrid are paying nor should we want to. There is a level of pay where money should become meaningless.
 
gambit28 said:
We have tweaked it though, with Rooney, we just can't afford to pay what the likes of City and Madrid are paying nor should we want to. There is a level of pay where money should become meaningless.
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I never asked that.
 
devilish said:
Players has always been greedy and we struggled with wage structures before (Edwards time). However dont you think that the fact that we're struggling now, then maybe its time to tweak our wage structure a bit as we did during Kenyon time?
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I don't get how we're struggling though? You've mentioned Morrison and Pogba. Morrison went because he is a bit of a moron seemingly, and Fergie had had enough of him. Pogba is currently still with us, and may well sign on. If he doesn't, and it's for money, then more fool him, and fair play us for not kowtowing to a kid who has done feck all to justify being on massive wages. Our players are very well paid, I don't see many complaining. And if you're referring further, to Nasri or Sneijder, then neither of them are worth the wages they are on/were demanding, and I'm glad we didn't stump up the cash being asked for either. Where exactly are we struggling?
 
devilish said:
Players has always been greedy and we struggled with wage structures before (Edwards time). However dont you think that the fact that we're struggling now, then maybe its time to tweak our wage structure a bit as we did during Kenyon time?
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Absolutely not.

First of all, we're not "struggling". We've got fantastic depth in our squad and are having a decent season, despite a ridiculous amount of injuries.

Arsenal are struggling. Chelsea are struggling. We're not struggling.

Second - and more importantly - our wage bill increased by more than 17% in the last quarter. The inflationary effect of sugar daddies paying stupendous salaries has made players wages almost unsustainable. We need to cut our wage bill, not increase it. Now is the worst possible tome to "tweak our wage structure"
 
It seems to me that clubs like us (doing well, needing to pay established players a competitive wage) are always going to be vulnerable in terms of youth players. A club take Juventus is in a much better position to take a gamble on someone like Pogba because of where they are. It is not a bad strategy given their lack of a sugar daddy to start trying to buy up hugely talented players whose value might be underestimated because they haven't played that much and because their current club can't make the best use of them right now (think of Barca and Fabregas and their problems last summer with Thiago) . It's a gamble but you have to take those kind of gambles to improve rapidly without paying huge sums for established players. It's almost like an option. The actual downside for Juventus is quite small but the upside is very large.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
It seems to me that clubs like us (doing well, needing to pay established players a competitive wage) are always going to be vulnerable in terms of youth players. A club take Juventus is in a much better position to take a gamble on someone like Pogba because of where they are. It is not a bad strategy given their lack of a sugar daddy to start trying to buy up hugely talented players whose value might be underestimated because they haven't played that much and because their current club can't make the best use of them right now (think of Barca and Fabregas and their problems last summer with Thiago) . It's a gamble but you have to take those kind of gambles to improve rapidly without paying huge sums for established players. It's almost like an option. The actual downside for Juventus is quite small but the upside is very large.
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It's the approach Arsenal have been taking for years. Very risky, though. Seeing as it carries the risk of losing the best youngsters once they come good and you can't pay them the wages you want because it's all going to pay unproven kids.

Is that Juve's strategy, though?

I don't follow Serie A, so have no idea what their transfer strategy is.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's the approach Arsenal have been taking for years. Very risky, though. Seeing as it carries the risk of losing the best youngsters once they come good and you can't pay them the wages you want because it's all going to pay unproven kids.

Is that Juve's strategy, though?

I don't follow Serie A, so have no idea what their transfer strategy is.
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Well the same wanker agent just poached one of the best guys to come through Ajax's academy in years.

I can understand our position but it does leave us vulnerable unless the player has a particular loyalty to the club (although that didn't help with Morrison either but I think that was a different situation).
 
Donkey's Ears said:
It seems to me that clubs like us (doing well, needing to pay established players a competitive wage) are always going to be vulnerable in terms of youth players. A club take Juventus is in a much better position to take a gamble on someone like Pogba because of where they are. It is not a bad strategy given their lack of a sugar daddy to start trying to buy up hugely talented players whose value might be underestimated because they haven't played that much and because their current club can't make the best use of them right now (think of Barca and Fabregas and their problems last summer with Thiago) . It's a gamble but you have to take those kind of gambles to improve rapidly without paying huge sums for established players. It's almost like an option. The actual downside for Juventus is quite small but the upside is very large.
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Your example with Juve doesn't hold much ground as they spend over 60m euros in 2011. Granted, they were spread over numerous players, the wage bill will rise too and there has to be room for that, too.

Again, this is all Raiola's doing. He's a piss human being and only wants to thicken his wallet.
 
Skywarden said:
Your example with Juve doesn't hold much ground as they spend over 60m euros in 2011. Granted, they were spread over numerous players, the wage bill will rise too and there has to be room for that, too.

Again, this is all Raiola's doing. He's a piss human being and only wants to thicken his wallet.
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I think the point does hold. They are rebuilding and rebuilding teams have more opportunities or incentives to take a punt on young, talented but not quite proven players. You see it all the time in sports.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
I think the point does hold. They are rebuilding and rebuilding teams have more opportunities or incentives to take a punt on young, talented but not quite proven players. You see it all the time in sports.
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Sorry but I cannot see where you are coming form. Juve brought in quite a lot of players above 24 last season and their depth in midfield is well-covered for the 4-5 years to come. How is that suppose to be any easier to break through as a youngster compared to our team?
 
gambit28 said:
Then what is there to restrusture, outside of those 2 and Barca maybe we pay incredible wages.
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City are bankrolled by Oil and their wages alone are higher than their turnover and Madrid took out huge loans which are often interest free or written off. Barca have had times where they have struggled even to pay the players wages.

Not only are we very competitive, we're pretty much the only ones who can afford to be.

I'm much happier paying within our means than being one of the clubs constantly paying over the odds for players and driving the already astronomically lucrative wages of the professional footballer.
 
I think Pogba is very close to breaking into the first team and we should be doing everything to keep him here. Special talent demands special treatment and that includes a higher than usual salary.
Otherwise we'll struggle to hold on to any of our best youngsters.

In a couple of years we'd most likely be going through the same crap with Daehli and the other highly rated kid.

Of course I've no way of knowing what the club is/isn't doing, just hope we're not haggling over little money or arguing/taking stand against an agent.

We've lost a lot more time and money over the years betting on worse than Pogba imo.
 
So is he definitely starting tonight? I'm sure I heard Fergie say that in the Presser?
 
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