I think getting raped by Barcelona for the second time in three years kind of influences that dont you?
Paul Pogba
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I think getting raped by Barcelona for the second time in three years kind of influences that dont you?
Agreed with what you said especially that bolded line.
And it won't matter who we load our CM with. People went on about Ozil last year strengthening us. With Ozil, Alonso in the RM midfield, Barca was still able to wtfpwn them. The whole buying so we can compete against Barca is just retarded.
Our CM when on form over the last couple seasons has been on par or better with anyone the league or in the CL. However, our issue has been one of consistency. We don't have a consistent CM and that in itself I think is the problem. Buying a top CM may mean consistency in terms of who plays and possibly consistency in performances.
If we are concerned we won't be able to compete against the likes of Chelsea, City, Pool, Arsenal and Spurs with what we have - then that's a lot more legitimate than being concerned that we don't have a midfield that can compete against the likes of Barca, who we may not even face for the next several years.
Let's not even try then
Yep and focus on where we are really light, defensive/CM for the coming season. SAF said it best, these things happen in cycles, right now Barca have the best CM and that really gives them the edge. We are in an excellent position from forwards, defenders and goalkeepers perspective, so over the next few years we need to bring through players like Pogba and hopefully Anderson/Cleverly will take on the challenge to become the players the boss thinks they could be.
Obviously buying quality will help but, we don't need to do it just that we might have a chance should we come up against Barca
I just think that amidst all the spending we could have splashed out on one proper good CM and that would represent the single biggest improvement in our team.
Pogba still has a lot to prove in reserves football, so I'm not sure why you would think on that basis that he's ready for the first team. He has boundless amounts of talent but currently he is not good to merit a few minutes in the cups at the end of games. He's not Ryan Giggs, he's not a left winger and it's not 1991.
reserve football is academy football with the exception now and then you get older players playing in it..and that's rare these days. He doesn't 'have to be giggs' to be capable does he? He's not fabregas either. You know what helped Giggs apart from being exceptional? The fact he had the potential to be better then what we had and he was. Pogba has a similar potential and the year is irrelevent....
The fact is we're in 2011 and we've a fight on for midfield places...we would have had the same discussion about an 18 year old Rafael da silva and yes he's a fullback but don't make the mistake that it's a heck of a lot easier. It's just he was good enough..how can you rule it out if you don't try?... We gave an untested kiko at 17/18 a game part of a game against villa..based on a hat trick he scored against kids...
exactly ..you don't face them week in week out but even so obviously we're weaker without our best midfielder.
Wenger stuck with Fabregas from a young age and his faith paid off
He stuck with too many young aged though and won feck all.
You're right - very few teams can compete with Barca, but that doesn't mean you don't try. If the club doesn't aspire to be the best then whats the point?
The fact is, in a lot of games last season against inferior opposition, especially away from home, we couldnt control the midfield areas - and managed to get results when we did in spite of poor performances and because in other areas we're very strong.
The fact that a club like United is currently relying on a 36 years old Ryan Giggs (as they were in the closing stages of last season), however good he is and has been, is ridiculous, especially when spending money on the likes of Jones in areas where we are well stocked.
Hopefully the young lads will get a chance but to expect a youth team player to come in and have teh kind of impact we require is asking too much. Young players should get time to settle and be given a fair chance to be drip fed into the side - unless they are really exceptional talents.
The likes of Pogba and Morrison may be great players in the future but for me they're not the answer now - nor is it fair to expect them to be, so hopefully a new central player with real talent and ability will come in and be the missing peice of the puzzle.
Just goes to show how few young players make it in the PL at the moment.
Every single one of them had done more than Pgba has by the time they got their chance.
Giggs was the star player in the youths and reserves, Fabregas ran the show for Arsenal when he has a chance in the carling cup at 16 after bossing the reserves, fabio and rafael each got a game in a preseason reserves friendly and looked so good from the first moment that they couldnt help but be fast tracked into the first team. Pogba still struggles at a reserve level that gets weaker year on year. Let's walk before we can run, eh?
I don't think the comparison to Giggs tells you all that much because he was one of the outstanding players of his generation and surely we aren't putting that burden of expectation or incredible level of faith in Pogba, are we? Aside from that it's always been the case that it's easier to bed in young attackers than it is to bed in young midfielders because the level of maturity demanded is that much higher; attackers can drift in and out of games and yet still be the best player on the pitch but a midfielder must be constantly involved, constantly aware. Keane was still at Cobh Ramblers when he was 19, Scholesy didn't make his debut until 20, Zidane was relegated with his team Cannes when he was 20...it's a rare thing to be playing in midfield for a big team at such an early age.
I think the point about Fletcher is fair though, what is it that Fletch had that made Sir Alex want to throw him in at such an early age that Pogba doesn't? He was played out wide a lot in his early years though, part of that was to develop him as a player I'm sure but part of what must have been because it's so difficult to play in the middle.
I think the point about Fletcher is fair though, what is it that Fletch had that made Sir Alex want to throw him in at such an early age that Pogba doesn't? He was played out wide a lot in his early years though, part of that was to develop him as a player I'm sure but part of what must have been because it's so difficult to play in the middle.
That's not really it though is it? He brings through quite a decent amount of players but he keeps on selling the experienced ones and replacing them with younger ones in a never ending cycle.
You are talking complete bollocks.
I think Striker10 and samabachan exist to balance each other out. samabachan is very cautious with our youth and is always commenting players aren't ready and saying some are probably less talented then we think. While Striker10 likes to believe everyone will be great and fantastic and we'll all live happily ever after. Could one exist without the other?
Well, samabachan is right in this case, and Striker10 wrong, so that's certainly a balance. methinks that samabachan sees more of the youth/reserves games.
No, he doesn't understand that Academy football and reserve team football has been used completely interchangeably in the last few years for the U-18 players.
Jack Rudge made roughly as many reserve appearances as u-18s, does that make him better than the under 18s players? no, thats just how they chose to use him.
To say that Pogba STRUGGLES at reserve level is completely outrageous, he does what he does at under 18s level still. Shows flashes of brilliance and drifts in and out of games but its all easy for him, there is no sign that he is anywhere close to being out of his depth.
Pogba was very close to being taken to America with the first team squad this year because of his talent, I imagine he will play a part of Scholesy's testimonial and who knows if he will do a Rafael?
In fairness Striker10 is a regular contributor in the Youth/Reserves forum so I reckon he probably watches most matches. I can see where both are coming from to be honest and really it's impossible to tell until he is actually given a chance. I would like to see it happen at some stage during the season either in a cup match or in a Premier League match United are winning handily. If he doesn't impress then loan him out so he gets more experience, if he does.... fantastic.
A Scottish accent, obviously.
Pogba is certain to get a few minutes in Carling Cup games this year, at 18 he is surely ready for that. If he can cement a regular reserve spot (which is almost a certainty) within a season, he'll go out on loan. If he really impresses in that time and we don't reinforce the midfield then he could well stay and make a breakthrough. Exciting times for him.
To an extent he was talking the truth, he isn't the dominant force people seem to think he is and thus will be for the first team.
He shone at both u18 and reserve level but there were also times where things didn't come off for him, he didn't look as on the ball/interested as we would like (West Ham FAYC prime example).
I have no doubt he will be a star but I dunno why people want him to run before he walks. Don't rush these things, when they come we will enjoy them way more.
This post draws on a crucial point. The only reason that Paul Pogba has a relative lack of Reserves football is because we went all the way to the final of the FA Youth Cup and the management staff wanted to keep those youth players together and fresh for the cup games. He was actually brought into the Reserves team ahead of most of the other youth team players initially.
This Reserves season showed how the Reserves League is prioritised behind the FA Youth Cup as 16 year olds like Rudge, Barmby etc were all pushed ahead to the Reserves side while Morrison, Pogba, Tunnicliffe etc were kept for the U18s. The argument that Paul Pogba is a long way off getting anywhere near the first team because he hasn't played regularly in the Reserves doesn't carry any weight whatsoever. I would say he is ahead of almost any of our other youth team players.
In fairness using the word 'struggle'was misleading on my part - its not really an accurate description because at times he has looked head and shoulders the best player on the park, but he can also look like a little boy lost against players who are totally inferior to him, and he needs to work on that before he can expect regular first team playing time. However, as I said all along I think he is ready for a taste of first team football, he's just not ready to play 30 games a season in the prem and cl as striker seems to think.
We need to have Fletcher and Carrick playing at their best to compete with the top midfields.
I think by "midfielders" you mean central midfield. I was happy with our wingers last season.
In terms of the CL, Marseille and Schalke were poor opponents that did not really test our central midfield.
If you are concentrating on domestic competitions, our central midfield is adequate. For teams such as Barcelona and Real Madrid, I think we need strengthening in that area.
We cannot keep relying on Giggs to perform so consistently and excellently in that area. Indeed, he had a pretty anonymous game in the CL final when our midfield was overwhelmed.
He's definitely not ready to come in and dictate a game for 90 minutes in the first team but then not many players in the league are capable of that. He doesn't always control games at reserve and youth level but he has exceptional ability and nearly always seems to have a period in a game where he's almost untouchable, when he can start producing that over the period of an entire game week in week out(which I'm almost certain he will) then he will be some player.
He does bring through plenty of players - but how many are good enough for the top level?
He persists with youth and its arguably to Arsenal's detriment. In my view, of the countless young lads hes brought into the first team in this generation only Fabregas and Wilshere are top players - the likes of Bendtner, Eboue, Clichy, Denilson, Song and Djourou are good PL players but nothing more, and nowhere near the level required to form the basis of a side consistently winning silverware.
That's obvious based on the fact when they came through, they were older. However what you do at reserve as you say don't always translate to success...you only have to look at Gibson to see that.
Giggs was the star player? What do you think Pogba and Morrison are? When you say 'bossing', it's still a team effort...I remember rafaels debut, as good as Ronaldos imo but that's still one game..and that's still not a competitive game....and that's again about the boys quality. Nothing to do with experience. Nothing to do with his size or strength. We're talking about his confidence and quality and Pogba has that. He's not the finished article but I don't think there's much to worry about. If wenger took your advice, Fabregas would never have played in the carling cup as he'd still be bossing the reserves....
The way you talk about him is just insulting to the player. It's as if you've not even watched him. Yes, he trips over himself and has no technique. The goals he scores, are down to the quality of the goalkeepers...it's nonsense.That's obvious based on the fact when they came through, they were older. However what you do at reserve as you say don't always translate to success...you only have to look at Gibson to see that.
Giggs was the star player? What do you think Pogba and Morrison are? When you say 'bossing', it's still a team effort...I remember rafaels debut, as good as Ronaldos imo but that's still one game..and that's still not a competitive game....and that's again about the boys quality. Nothing to do with experience. Nothing to do with his size or strength. We're talking about his confidence and quality and Pogba has that. He's not the finished article but I don't think there's much to worry about. If wenger took your advice, Fabregas would never have played in the carling cup as he'd still be bossing the reserves....
double post....crap.
This forums still buggy. That nonsense bit was add on for the previous post and it posts it as a new post....where's the delete feature gone? 
It's not a comparison to giggs. It's an example of a talented kid who's not fully developed and who didn't go out on loan but was given an opportunity and now he's out most successful player. That is not a comparison. They're not like to for like. It was to point out, that not every bleeping player needs to go out on loan or even be fully developed.
The type of midfielder Pogba is, personally he should have free licence because I think he's better as an attacking player and he has the qualities for that. It might be different if we say to him..box to box..or get stuck in.
The burden of expectation is out of context in this instance because we still have Anderson/Fletcher/Giggs/Carrick etc...and as for faith, I don't see much of that in the kids. To me it's an insult to the kids that none appear good enough. I wonder why.
You'll note I said in an advanced midfield position with experienced midfielders behind him. When you do that, you play to the kids strengths while giving more experienced players the responsibility. I just think when we have a big lead, or perhaps if we are at home or it's the carling cup we should give him a shot.
These kids train with the first team anyway. They pick up experience all the time. They're brought up the united way, playing our brand of football. People can be too dismissive. Saying give them an opportunity isn't radical thinking.
To me the difference is in 1991 we were chasing, and in 2011 we're not. We're top dogs but one player is not going to break us and as I say if we never gave kiko those minutes against Villa, we might not have not won the league that year....you just never know.
Lets just summarize this...
Pogba has insane amount of potential - Yes
Pogba is ready for the first team - No ( A full run in the reserves would do him the world of good )
SAF's choice to rush him or not, I've watched the odd 10-15 games in the U18's so I won't comment much but there are times he is easily brushed off the ball, loses it like what all 17 yr olds do so that was probably what Samabachan was trying to refer to as struggling... But there are also times where he just shows brilliance on the ball, distribution passing etc... Its something you'd pay to watch...
But lets not be hasty, he'll be given the chance but lets still consider the lad as an unpolished gem so he won't feel too much pressure... He'll get the odd game and I'm sure he'll make an impact in the coming years. But not 2011/12
Pogba has insane amount of potential - Yes
Pogba is ready for the first team - No ( A full run in the reserves would do him the world of good )
SAF's choice to rush him or not, I've watched the odd 10-15 games in the U18's so I won't comment much but there are times he is easily brushed off the ball, loses it like what all 17 yr olds do so that was probably what Samabachan was trying to refer to as struggling... But there are also times where he just shows brilliance on the ball, distribution passing etc... Its something you'd pay to watch...
But lets not be hasty, he'll be given the chance but lets still consider the lad as an unpolished gem so he won't feel too much pressure... He'll get the odd game and I'm sure he'll make an impact in the coming years. But not 2011/12
Let me ask you, whats the difference between the academy and reserves thats so defining it makes any difference at all?
I would suggest that in terms of pace very little difference - the kids may even be a bit faster given that they're all young, fit 17/18 year olds.
In terms of the physical aspect of the game I would suspect that reserves is a bit harder, especially against the good sides who have large squads where you might be playing against a fair few good standard PL players.
If you are good enough, you are old enough. Fergie and the coaching staff, with the benefit of seeing the players in training everyday, will be well placed to decide if he's good enough, more so than any of us here.
Personally I'm starving for a new player (who is not a defender) to break through successfully from the youth team.
Personally I'm starving for a new player (who is not a defender) to break through successfully from the youth team.
That latter points kinda my point. That's pretty rare these days. It's mainly kids so for me it's much of a muchness you know? That's why it seems not right. I guess we can agree to some extent loaning isn't for everyone and I can't see us loaning pogba out (though you never know).
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I did want to say that I think him being knocked off the ball, is not correct. When you play at your own pace that can happen. To anyone. Veron. Scholes. Carrick etc...it's not to do with his age. I think though it doesn't happen as people make it sound. Usually he's got good footwork while can create a yard of space. The way I see it though, at least we have him as an option. We all have ideas about how the team/squad will evolve.
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I did want to say that I think him being knocked off the ball, is not correct. When you play at your own pace that can happen. To anyone. Veron. Scholes. Carrick etc...it's not to do with his age. I think though it doesn't happen as people make it sound. Usually he's got good footwork while can create a yard of space. The way I see it though, at least we have him as an option. We all have ideas about how the team/squad will evolve.
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