That bar was raised by other clubs.
Paul Pogba
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That bar was raised by other clubs.
If Fergie keeps saying that Pogba has only improved since he came to the club, then why not offer him a little game time or at least send him on loan to a Championship club. What makes you guys think Tunnicliffe is ready not Pogba is not ready for loan?
Pogba is still learning English. He is new to the country. Its not just the footballing aspect. He might not be ready to go to a smaller club and adapt.
Tunni is far better suited to doing that
Tunni is far better suited to doing that
Because SAF is a much better judge of when a player is ready for a loan and at what club than some gimps on an internet forum.
I am not criticizing Fergie. I am just curious to hear the opinions of people here as to why.
There seems to be sand in your vagina? The lad just asked a simple question...
Judging from what I saw in the two carling cup games this season I don't think he's ready yet for first team football, certainly not in the premier league. Maybe in the championship but even then I'm not sure, I suppose I need to see more of him, the few reserve games I've seen he's played wide so not really his normal position. But I'm certain he's not ready for the premier league, nothing beyond making a cameo performance anyway when we're comfortably winning.
Pogba is French.
He speaks pretty good English actually.
I'd like to see him given a go at some point, in a full strength team alongside Carrick he'd get all the protection he needs. Vs. Wigan on boxing day would be the perfect occasion for me.
Listening to SAF today it sounds like he's ready to call on him.
Listening to SAF today it sounds like he's ready to call on him.
Yeah now he does but as he said in his interview yesterday he didn't know a word of English when he first came and he just used to say Yes to everything, no doubt he's still adapting to some facets of English culture.
I dunno I wouldn't play him from the start, if we're comfortable then yeah that'd be good, but not from the start, I mean he may have played within himself in the two carling cup games but he looked a fair way off being ready to start a PL game. Especially at this moment in time where every point counts.
We've played John O'Shea in midfield in the past. In an easy home game with a full strength team, a proper midfielder (albeit young) will be just fine.
Yeah but O'shea was an experienced player, clearly up to the standards of first team football. Pogba has played a tiny amount of first team football against decent opposition, that's still below PL level, and didn't look comfortable. When we're in such a tight race with City and we don't have to just throw Pogba in to a game, and he's done little to suggest he's ready to start then there's no reason. He could easily do something stupid and get himself sent off. Better to wait for an occasion where we're comfortably in front before we put him on.
Why are you being so skeptical about Pogba? Cleverley had loads of experience from playing in the Championship but making the step up is not easy. He did it right? He fits in so well that now we think he is our best central midfield player. Who would have thought that back in July? Who knew we would miss him now so much?
I know Cleverley is older and mature but we introduced Ronaldo when he was 18. Giggs, Becks and Scholes were around 19 I think. I am not saying he should start against City away but an easy home game, I think he needs to experience that. With the crowd behind and some good players next to him, I am confident he will thrive. If he gets the confidence from starting two to three premier league games, that will go a long way. He might make mistakes but if you make mistakes at the biggest stage, you learn quicker.
I know Cleverley is older and mature but we introduced Ronaldo when he was 18. Giggs, Becks and Scholes were around 19 I think. I am not saying he should start against City away but an easy home game, I think he needs to experience that. With the crowd behind and some good players next to him, I am confident he will thrive. If he gets the confidence from starting two to three premier league games, that will go a long way. He might make mistakes but if you make mistakes at the biggest stage, you learn quicker.
because John O'Shea is roughly the same as a kid without a first team start to his name?
Because JOS was never a midfielder in a million years, but he did just fine there.
I'm sure a talented young midfielder can pull it off against Wigan at home in a full strength line-up if John O'Shea can.
Right. So some players we introduced at 18 and 19 - at a different era, it must be said - and our most recent lad given a big chance with the first team was 22 and had played in the PL and the Championship before that happened. So many that explains why a lad not yet 19 is not being thrown into the first team yet. We feel he's unready. And having seen him, I firmly understand why.
Put it better than I could RDCR.
No-one is asking him to be "THROWN" into the first team. We simply said, it'd be nice to see and could work wonders for him. If SAF doesn't think he's ready then I''m not gonna argue with that.
What do you really think would happen if we play this team vs. Wigan at home:
De Gea
Jones Smalling Rio Evra
Valencia Pogba Carrick Nani
Rooney Welbeck
Jones Smalling Rio Evra
Valencia Pogba Carrick Nani
Rooney Welbeck
Do you rate Pogba so low and so "not ready" for football that you think it may be a disaster? I find that really hard to believe. Stick one of the 16 yr olds in there and we'd no doubt get away with it, let alone an extremely talented strong lad.
I don't think Cleverley is our best midfielder and he's got a lot more to do before we can give him that title. But anyway players develop at different rates though right? So take Wilshere, roughly a year older than Pogba and about 3/4 years younger than Clev, yet he's ahead of either of them. Fabregas at 16 was clearly a more mature player than most other players in his age band and as a result he got in to the team quicker. It doesn't mean anything about the player at this stage, it's not a slight on the player, its just accepting that some players develop at different rates.
Cleverley went out to the championship and to a premier league team where he matured as a footballer. He wasn't ready to play for us before then, he didn't even make a senior appearance till that season at the age of 22. That's just the way it goes sometimes. Players like Ronaldo, Giggs etc, were mature for their age, whilst they would make mistakes, they were clearly able to play at that level at those ages. Pogba in his two senior games so far hasn't suggested that he's ready for that, and so throwing him in to a game at this stage is just not necessary. As much confidence as it might give him, a bad performance or a sending off could equally hurt his development as well as the team. Also in todays game where games are so competitive and the title races usually going to the wire, with higher points tallies in general then when the likes of scholes/giggs etc came through there's less room for mistakes.
I'm all for Pogba getting league time eventually, but I don't think we need to just start him straight away, not when we're already behind city and not when we don't need to. Fergie didn't even start him for either of the two carling cup games against weaker opposition then we'll see in the league and I'm sure there was a reason for that. Lets give him some game time first when there's less pressure before we work up to playing him from the start.
I am not saying he should be playing week-in, week-out by now or from now on. A premier league game here and then against a weak team.
The talent is there for Pogba but it hasn't quite translated to the glimpses we've seen of him for the First Team. Going by his interview last night I wonder if that could be down to his eagerness to prove himself good enough to be consistently in the First Team, I think he could be trying too hard. He will get games in the 2nd half of the season especially with the midfield crocked. Also we were in a tight title race when we brought on Macheda and Welbeck against Villa, it doesn't matter to SAF, if you're ready you will play.
He could easily just get himself sent of as well right? Or maybe he makes a few mistakes that puts an already weakened defence under pressure and we concede a stupid goal that puts us under pressure. At this moment in time when the team isn't performing particularly well, we're already missing a few key players and we're trailing in the title race behind a very strong team it doesn't make sense to start him until we know more about him at this level. We didn't even start him against a league 2 team, and when he did come on he didn't stand out.
I think I disagree with that. Okay I agree with you saying that different players mature at different ages. But lets look at De Gea this season. The premier league is so much different from the La Liga. We all had our doubts about him. He is young and still maturing.
When he let is goals against City and West Brom earlier in the season, his confidence might have been down due to all the fecking pundits and media talking about him. How much has he matured as the season has gone on? Right now I would not take any other young keeper out there over De Gea and I am thoroughly pleased with Fergie for keeping his confidence in him. Players have bad performances all the time. You just dust and pick yourself up. We have the staff and people here to help them do that.
Who did?
Established pros didn't stand out against them. And coming on for a sub in CM is a tough thing for many a player, it's hard to find the rhythm.
And no, I don't think young talented players are so stupid that they turn into idiots when given a start and get red carded etc. I trust that Pogba would be just fine. For me, in a full line-up, against a weak team at home, I don't see the risk, you obviously do.
To be honest though, when do you blood a youngster if you only ever look at it from your angle?
Phil Jones impressed SAF in Blackburn's 7-1 defeat last year, you learn a lot about the character of players in adversity, if Pogba comes in and has a bad game his response will be a pointer to SAF. It will help SAF understand how best to nurture him, SAF has already seen him in close quarters in the pressured environment that is training (ask Ben Foster) if SAF feels he is ready then he's ready but there is no substitute for actual game time.
But surely being first choice Gk for a la liga team is pretty similar to a pl team. The standard is gonna be very similar and in sure he would have faced problems there too which he's overcome, being a first choice gk at any major league is going to come with pressure, pressure he's clearly dealt with before moving to united. He's got experience at the top level already. He's shown he's mature for his age. Pogba hasn't and whilst thats the case I can't see him starting a league game and I can't see why we would want him to. Not in probably the one role in the team where you'll get most exposed if you're not up to scratch. I'm all for him coming on as a sub and if he impresses getting a start. If he'd have started the last cup game and impressed I wouldn't have minded but he didn't impress and he didn't start for what ever reason. so I don't see why right now it makes sense to give him a start even against a poor Wigan team.
Fine. When United facing a weak team means something. Right now, every game is potentially very hard for us because the team is so unsettled. Not the best of times to introduce new talents, especially if we don't full they are fully prepared.
Ahhh now I get it, this is where I disagree, Wigan at home is not a tough game, and we are not anywhere near as poor at present as you make out.
I think this is almost the perfect time. We have all our first choice central midfielders out injured. We need options right NOW. We could just save our money and spend it in the summer on someone big. We Anderson, Fletcher and Cleverley out. If we don't play new people now, how exactly will you play them when all our first choice players are fit?
We're not that poor, but up until Wolves, all our games were close calls, certainly in terms of the result. This isn't the time to be throwing in the kids.
We've seen over the years that when a young lad is good enough, he will get his chances. Looking at our current midfield bunch, it's hardly as if they'll be blocking the way of the kids going forward. Giggs is close to finishing, Carrick isn't young, who knows if Fletcher will ever be back. The spaces will open for them. Doesn't mean we have to play them when we don't have to - at the moment, we don't have to, not yet - when we feel they aren't ready. Their time will come. Their time isn't now.
Well with the established players we clearly know they are good enough already and actually against aldershot we played pretty well. When Pogba cane on though whilst he wasn't bad at all, he also wasn't particularily good. Against palace though where as you say nobody impressed I would say Morison looked a lot more comfortable than Pogba did. He's someone I can see playing if not starting. As I said though the senior players have already proven themselves and at least they have the excuse of mostly being unfit and not sharp as many were returnig from injuries. Pogba didn't have that excuse, whilst he wasn't helped by those around him he also didn't look comfortable. We lost a grip on the midfield when he came on. Now I'm happy to accept that he played within himself but I also think that there's nothing there to suggest he's ready to start so if he is going to play it should be as a sub.
It's not about being stupid it's just about lacking experience and being exposed. Frimpong is clearly a good player at arsenal but it didn't stop him being sent off. Also in reserve football you can make a lot more mistakes than you can in senior football. Its all about maturity. Like I said until we see more there's nothing to go on.
As for blooding players well there's a number of things you can do. You can use cup games against weaker teams to give young players a chance like we've done over the years. Play well there and you'll get a chance. You can go on loan and show what you can do at a lower level or maybe at a team within the league if you've stood out before ala cleverley. Or you can give them sub appearances for the first team. It's rare that teams like united would just start a reserve player in a league game not having the player impress before hand in senior football.
You have to achieve a decent level to be thrown into easier home games too. Obviously SAF thinks that day isn't far off but it isn't now.
He'll get his shot. What's the hurry?
He'll get his shot. What's the hurry?
There is no hurry, webjust said it'd be nice to see.
I've been saying that for ages. As far as most of the posters on here are concerned, these youngsters will never be ready. It's like catch 22 for the youngsters because they get labelled 'not ready' (by people, some of which probably don't even watch the reserves) because they're only playing at reserve level. But then they are never deemed ready for a chance with the first team. What are they to do?I always say though that no youngster is ever the finished article or 'ready' when they first step up. They need to step up and get playing time BEFORE they will be ready. In my opinion, Pogba and a few others are at/fast approaching this stage. Fergie knows how to best handle this, but he's mentioning these youngsters a lot nowadays and you can sense that they are coming into his thoughts.
If there is any better judge of knowing when a young player is ready for professional football than SAF, I'd like to know who that is. Yes, I think he's an even better judge than Wenger.
Like Ash & Amir have noted above, its not as though there are roadblocks in Pogba's way to get a game right now given the injury problems we have in central midfield. And yet even then, just today, SAF talked about Giggs, Park and Jones as players who he could rely upon while our injury problems clear up, before his nice mention of Pogba (which I think was more mind games re his contract rather than bigging him up as being totally ready for 1st team football).
Pogba is no doubt a talent, but if SAF deems he's not ready yet, I cant think of any reason to doubt his opinion.
Like Ash & Amir have noted above, its not as though there are roadblocks in Pogba's way to get a game right now given the injury problems we have in central midfield. And yet even then, just today, SAF talked about Giggs, Park and Jones as players who he could rely upon while our injury problems clear up, before his nice mention of Pogba (which I think was more mind games re his contract rather than bigging him up as being totally ready for 1st team football).
Pogba is no doubt a talent, but if SAF deems he's not ready yet, I cant think of any reason to doubt his opinion.
Yeah he'll get his chance I have no doubt but I don't think he's ready to start yet if he was, I'm sure Fergie would have taken him one the pre-season tour, or let him start one of the games in the carling cup. It's not slating Pogba as a player or anything, but as I said some players mature faster than others. Hopefully we can give him some minutes in the next few weeks, as that'll be a good indication of where he is, in his development and how he adapts to tough opposition, but I don't think he's ready to start just yet. Fergie's never been afraid to give young players a chance, if you're good enough you're old enough, and I'm sure it'll be the same with pogba.
I don't think anyone here is doubting SAF's opinion.
The debate for me is whether it would be a big risk to play Pogba in a full strength team vs. Wigan at home, I don't think it would be and it's likely that will be just the type of game SAF eventually gives Pogba a start in.
what did you think of darren fletcher or gibson etc are two games? You can build on your experiences quite easily, quite quickly because most of these kids have potential. You give a player a run of ten games and you will see improvement, to me it's if they can sustain it that makes a player. You can't be good for five minutes. I think it's wrong to judge right now. I don't think those were the right circumstances to say, without a shadow of a doubt...
There is nothing to conclusive here to say, that if he played the next game, there was no chance of him being motm. Just like there's no reason to think he'll be poor. I don't think you can write a season off like that when you talk about the kids we have, because the potential is here and it's up to the experienced lads to help these kids too.
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