not at all. The midfield is an area that we will need to address at some point. He's not said he doesn't want to play for United. This is negotiations. It's unbelievable. Negotiations happen all the time. Unfortunately he has a bad agent. At the end of the day, what is embarrassing is people letting it get to them and throwing their toys out the pram.
Paul Pogba
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not at all. The midfield is an area that we will need to address at some point. He's not said he doesn't want to play for United. This is negotiations. It's unbelievable. Negotiations happen all the time. Unfortunately he has a bad agent. At the end of the day, what is embarrassing is people letting it get to them and throwing their toys out the pram.
Yeah good point. We need to stop making this talk effect us!! Great talent I hope he stays but we are dwelling on it too much.. It's not that important to throw so much criticism at him.
To be fair he should be given more chances this season. Could understand why is he being disappointed.
does anybody ever match Joga's eloquence with words?!
There's no reason to assume that Welbeck and Cleverly will stay at United for rest of the careers, or that "players like Pogba" are always going to move at some point. Surely our policy can't be that all players with agents who seem a bit greedy should never be signed, no matter how suitable or talented they are.
I think too many unnecessary issues are being brought in here. It's a simple case of a contract negotiation, and both club and player/agent have differing opinions on how much money he should get for tying himself to the club for another 4-5 years. Nothing more, nothing less. People are discussing this as though there are underlying moral issues or principles that should not be compromised, like abortion or euthanasia. Well it's not, it's just a contract negotiation. These happen all the time, with both parties trying to get the best deal they can, and if they can't come to an agreement, they part ways.
I personally think Pogba should stay because we have a good track record for developing young talent, but he doesn't have to listen to word I say. I also think that we should try to stretch a little further to try to keep him, but the club won't have to care what I think either. So let's just let it pan out, and try not to assassinate someone's character just because he wants to consider a football career outside of United.
How do you demand to play immediately when you've barely done shit ? It makes no sense
It's weird. Surely, he should look within and work out where he has to improve to be worthy of starting. It's smacks of a lack of faith in the manager and misplaced self importance.
It would be funny, though, if he does decide to move to Italy and then predictably has to work hard to impress enough just to get chances. Which is exactly his current predicament at United.
I don't believe that one bit.It wouldn't make sense that a man who is supposed to represent you would do his best to fulfill his own desires without taking yours into account.At this level, as long as a player keeps an asshole of an agent, then it means he's 100% behind his tactics of either getting a move or bigger wages.
Pogba is not some sort of innocent kid who's being lead by his master puppet Raiolo.He knows what he wants and his agents takes care of the rest.
Finally some sense. It is pretty embarrassing how Pogba is being made as some kind of poor, naive victim in this.
Agents are just an extension of the players will/desire. Even when Fergie talks about agents ruining the game it makes me cringe.
You seriously under-estimate how good agents can be (in terms of being manipulative to achieve their ends with clients)
I agree - what Ferguson fails to accept is that not every club and chairman are nice honest people who will do what is best for the player. Their job is to do what is best for the club - and if they can pay a player £10.000 a week rather than £50.000 - most of them will do it.
United generally treat their players very well - but Ferguson often seems to think that everyone else does as well
United generally treat their players very well - but Ferguson often seems to think that everyone else does as well
The agents might say "you can get x elsewhere", but it is the player that always has the final say. If Pogba really wanted to stay, he'd have instructed the agent to get the deal done.
The main reason clubs hate agents is because their job is to negotiate the best deal for their clients. In years gone by the club were in a massively strong position when negotiating with either an 18 year old or a parent with no negotiating experience. Nowadays the negotiating position has been leveled and players' eyes have been opened as to what they can get and what in some circumstances they should get.
I'm sure in years gone by thousands of young players were exploited by the disparity in negotiating positions. The fact of the matter is now they are totally aware of their "value" in the market because of their agent.
I think it is more that players are enlightened as to this information, rather than some evil covetous agent manipulating a poor naive sap.
but he is, FFS - he is 18 = a kid. Have you ever had any dealings in legal matters when you were 18? Or at all? This agent is a manipulative twat like most legal eagles who wring out as much as they can out of any issue for themselves as they can, whether it be footballers' contracts, legal aid, mortgage conveyance etc etc. The kid probably has his own leanings but the heavy, influencial voice of experience guiding him in a foreign country for his own good will be pretty....well, influential. And no doubt, his parents, muttering in his other ear for him to make sure he gets the best deal he can. Remember, they have no or little affiliation or affection for Manchester United. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Really.
Yes this is the fault of lawyers, lets keep that in sight
I think his point - and Fergie's - is that a lot of the new breed of agents are motivated by making as much money, as quickly as possible, without thinking about the long term career of the player in question. No doubt the individual footballers also wants as much cash as possible but they could also be open to considering options that might postpone financial gratification with a view to earning more money - or winning more medals - in the longer term.
Seeing as most footballers are young/uneducated they're unlikely to see the bigger picture themselves. Which is why they pay agents such massive sums of money. So that someone with a bit more nous can help them make the right decisions about their career. This doesn't seem to be happening, though. It seems that more and more agents take a very short-term view to earn as much money as quickly as possible, without thinking about the disruptive effects it can have on the development of a young footballer to be swapping clubs every few years.
It can't be good, personally or professionally, for Pogba to have played/lived in three different countries already while he's still in his teens. Stability is really important for young kids growing and developing as an individual and as a footballer. Somehow I doubt this lardy Italian gives two shits about any of this.
but he is, FFS - he is 18 = a kid. Have you ever had any dealings in legal matters when you were 18? Or at all? This agent is a manipulative twat like most legal eagles who wring out as much as they can out of any issue for themselves as they can, whether it be footballers' contracts, legal aid, mortgage conveyance etc etc. The kid probably has his own leanings but the heavy, influencial voice of experience guiding him in a foreign country for his own good will be pretty....well, influential. And no doubt, his parents, muttering in his other ear for him to make sure he gets the best deal he can. Remember, they have no or little affiliation or affection for Manchester United. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Really.
So are you saying Pogba's agent is actually doing what he wants without his client approving or disapproving him (I know you didn't but I'm exaggerating for the sake of it )? Yes Pogba is advised by him and his parents probably but ultimately the final decision is up to him.If he ain't happy with the deal United offered him and is looking for something more or another club, it's not the agent's doing.It's his.
It's as if you think Pogba is being by his agent or something just because he's really young.The agent is doing his job but if there's ultimately someone to be angry at it's not him, it's definitely Pogba.
Agreed. I can understand him if he is skeptical about stuff here when we field Rafael and Park Ji-Sung over him in a game. Does not send the right message of trust to him.
well then, work harder
you guys are driving the expectations on this kid through the stratosphere
If Rafael gets picked ahead of him in midfield, what does that tell us?
either that Fergie is bonkers, or Pogba is not ready
Which he did and then he got his debut. I've never made any assumptions about how good he was or how ready he was, that being said I still don't think playing a right back who've never played a competative game in midfield especially over him sends any kind of message of trust, in what way would Rafael be more ready for a central midfield role over Pogba? It's not like he is cool-headed in any sense. If he is ready enough to get on the bench as much as he does, he must be ready to make some sort of impact, even if Sir Alex doesn't believe that then he'll surely do so himself. I'm sure this game planted a seed in his mind that he is still far away from actually getting a game here, which his agent made blossom.
I really can't make sense of this opinion.
Lets take Pogba as the obvious example. Say the agent will be looking for say an extra £15k a week for his client (e.g. £30k instead of £15k). Also say that the agent is on a generous remuneration package of 10%. This means that we are assuming he is kicking up a fuss for around £80-100k per year.
Surely any idiot agent would see that the short term relatively meaningless gain would be far outweighed by the player developing correctly and in the future him gaining a similar cut of say £100k+ a week. I understand that there might be sign on fees etc which might bump how much the agent earns up in the short term, but it is still going to be pretty incidental compared with the potential to earn millions over a good career.
Now I totally understand Rooney doing this. He is in his prime and is never going to get a better contract than he is currently on, so squeezing every last penny out of us made perfect sense.
But are we really supposed to believe however that an intelligent agent is quite happy earning a small(ish) sum in the short term whilst at the same time jeopardising millions in the future? This is compounded by the fact that if the player were unsettled (due to the agent engineering moves) and his career began to wane, he would almost certainly sack his agent for influencing him into these bad choices.
I think it is much more likely that an 18 year old Pogba see's the £1m extra per year he will earn in the short term and is personally enticed by it. Again I think in the past players at this age had no representation and had no idea how much they were "worth", only seeing other youngsters at the club paid a similar fee and presuming that was that. Nowadays they have been enlightened as to every detail of what other clubs can offer and this gives them a much more informed decision as to where to take their career.
Without an agent Pogba would probably only really see that he had one option, staying with United. We would be in an incredibly strong position and would almost certainly take advantage of this.
Knowledge is power and players now have total knowledge.
I think it's the transfer fee cut/bonus that the agents are most interested in. It makes no difference to the agent where his player signs, but if he can get him to move as often as possible, he gets to make a nice chunk.
I don't really know many details of this side of things, but I've read about deals like Bebe's where the agent's payment was much, much larger than 10%. I remember one recently that was some 15-20mil transfer where the agent was getting 5 mil, that might be more than he made off that client from the 10% take from previous contract.
To an agent, Nicolas Anelka had the perfect career.
I don't really know many details of this side of things, but I've read about deals like Bebe's where the agent's payment was much, much larger than 10%. I remember one recently that was some 15-20mil transfer where the agent was getting 5 mil, that might be more than he made off that client from the 10% take from previous contract.
To an agent, Nicolas Anelka had the perfect career.
You more or less answered your own question.
Players change agents for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with their career going on the wane. As soon as that happens, the agent loses their cash cow. If anything, advising them against a big money move is a risky strategy. If the player faces any adversity in his career (injury, difficulty holding down a place in the team, falling out with the manager etc. etc. ) after turning down a lucrative move to another club under the advice of his agent, who do you think he's going to blame?
It's really not hard to see why so many agents take such a short-term view when it comes to contract negotiations. A bird in the hand and all that...
Very well put and i completeley agree. However, the agent is employed by the player to make him money. He's not employed to make him a better footballer. He's there to get the best deal for his client, be that a player or a club.
Personally i think that footballers are absolutley idiotic to give some fat greasy fecker 25% of everything for asking for the goig rate. We all know what players earn, players themselves can pitch themselves against other players at the same club or similar clubs and think he's on 100 grand per week so i reckon im worth £120 grand per week as i am a more important player within the squad etc etc. Sure the agent is helpful to players in the lower leagues whereby coverage of a players ability is not so great. But for a player in the premiership, la liga or serie a to have an agent i simply dont understand.
A player who employs an agent has therefore made the decision that he wants to make as much money as possible from the game, endorsements, promotion work and as many moves as possible. Scholesy didnt employ and agent.......i bet he got just as good a deal at united than if he had.
I bet players who stick with one or two clubs and have a solid career are far, far less likely to sack their agents than a player who is constantly moving around. So it is hugely in the agents interest for the player to have as good and stable a career as possible.
I think blaming agents is a massive cop out.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
Football premier-league: Valencia ditches agent as he targets long stay at Man United | Radio talkSPORT
We should let SAF and Pogba fight it out in the street like Rocky V for his contract.
A footballer with common sense. Well done Valencia!
With your logic we never should have invested in Nani and Ronaldo for instance - and should have placed the money on local youngsters who made their breakthrough from say - 2004-2009 .. ehmm....anyone ?
I'd be incredibly surprised if that is the norm, the exception that proves the rule perhaps?
That's not really my logic at all is it?
Considering Nani and Ronaldo costand £17m and £12m and were instantly first team players.
I'm talking about how you manage the academy and who you choose to invest in. I'd much rather see a player like Cleverley get the wage he deserves because you know he is going to be sticking with us for as long as we want him.
It's definitely unusual.
My point stands, though. There seems to be a higher and higher turnover of agents amongst young footballers. I'm fairly sure Pogba and Morrison are both on their second agent already. So it stands to reason that agents will do everything they can to secure their big pay-day as early in said players career as possible.
Which is much more in their own interest than it is that of the player.
FWIW, I agree with your general point. The ultimate power will always sit with the player and they have to share the blame for any dubious career choices they make. Just a shame so few of them have their heads screwed on as well as Tony V.
We are really playing chicken with Pogba.
Poor lamb.
I think we are overrating pogba. There is surely a reason why he hasn't gotten more chances this season. If wenger wasn't afraid to throw fabregas into his midfield at a young age, I don't see why fergie wouldn't have already done so with pogba if he was good enough.
whos to say that Wenger wouldnt of played pogba from a younger age?
Perhaps he would of put pogba in midfield instead of rafael and he would of taken the game by storm who knows?
Either way we dont know why he didnt get the chance, perhaps they were already arguing about the contract?
Its just a strange situation.
i have the feeling that the problem from united's side is not the money but Raiola's role.
Perhaps they see him as someone who could easily create a media circus around Pogba...
Perhaps they see him as someone who could easily create a media circus around Pogba...
What do people think of our decision to freeze him out? Is it a bad idea if we want to keep him? What would you do in his situation, all things considered?
It's quite a risky one, in my opinion, if we want to keep him. Freezing him out is likely to make him think it'd just be easier to leave as the damage may have been done.
It's quite a risky one, in my opinion, if we want to keep him. Freezing him out is likely to make him think it'd just be easier to leave as the damage may have been done.
How refreshing
He's gone to Juventus. Yes??
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