A lot of maybes there.
Pep - Doping (?) | Are PEDs being used by footballers
- Thread starter JoaquinJoaquin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Still convinced the prime Barcelona era had several dopers.
My word that was a read! Knew a lot of it, but never seen it all laid out quite so well. To think we might have had another 2 or 3 Champions Leagues...
It's been clear for years now that the Barcelona and Spanish national team was doping to the hills but the real question should be who wasn't doping.
I am convinced there are dopers in every single pro team
What makes you think our team was 100% clean ?
Fergie.
Faith, basically
Also, we're Manchester United. Our players get twice the length of ban for missing a drug test (and then passing) than others do for failing.
The levels of energy those teams always seemed suspicious but as people have said in here, it's almost certainly way more widespread than we know about because it's not really in anyone's interest for the world's biggest sport to have such a major scandal. Funnily enough it looks like we're about to buy a player who is one of very few who have actually been caught and punished for doping.
Almost certainly. It follows Pep around like a bad smell and has done his whole career, even as a player. We'll likely never know if it's true, Spanish courts have made sure of that.
Serious questions over Leicester's title win too.
Last edited:
Pep’s Barca and the Spanish team from that time fecking stink.
That's the problem though - all of the maybes could have been answered by the Spanish authorities but they have tried to hide the issue effectively.
Which just makes them look guilty, obviously.
Yeah well this isn't a fairy tale. The more you aim high and the higher the chances of dopingFaith, basically
Also, we're Manchester United. Our players get twice the length of ban for missing a drug test (and then passing) than others do for failing.
See, I think the Pep teams most certainly doped (probably still do), But Leicester i'm not so sure. The only reason that gives me doubt is that they went back to being so mediocre the next season. Surely they would of carried on performing at such a high level if they were doping.
Ok, so you're saying Manchester United doped because we were successful?
There hasn't been even the slightest hint of it in the press or the courts... a very different situation to what has been going on in Spain. I used the word "faith" and with a "
" to answer your question because I don't have any proof that we are innocent, but believe it to be so. There is an absence of proof of innocence, just as there is an absense of proof of guilt... there's also not been any grounds for accusation. Ever heard the term, innocent until proven guilty? The issue here is that there was enough evidence to bring to court, but there wasn't a fair hearing, in truth, there was an obvious cover-up. We can only speculate as to the extent of what might have been revealed. However, what you're saying is beyond the reasonable scope of the trial. When someone makes an accusation against someone else without any proof, it usually says more about the accuser than the accused.
Why did you ask the question by the way? You've already made up your mind with a fairytale's worth of proof.
There is a reason high pressing is the modern tactic that really all teams need to utilise.
The fitness and running of the players is simply incredible and to get the best out of it you high press for 90 minutes.
Guardiola is the dodgiest fecker around. I always remember watching their warm up to the 2011 final. I said to my mate "they must be knackered before they start" They were passing in small circles while 2 players closed down (standard footballing drill). Their short sprint ability was outstanding and their ability to regain energy to go again was incredible.
And the game started. And they ran, ran and ran some more.
The fitness and running of the players is simply incredible and to get the best out of it you high press for 90 minutes.
Guardiola is the dodgiest fecker around. I always remember watching their warm up to the 2011 final. I said to my mate "they must be knackered before they start" They were passing in small circles while 2 players closed down (standard footballing drill). Their short sprint ability was outstanding and their ability to regain energy to go again was incredible.
And the game started. And they ran, ran and ran some more.
Now I don't know if it's doping or not, but I remember last season with Zlatan and how knackered we were with all the games with Europa League, the cups and Premier League. It clearly affected our game-play. I'd say we also had a drop in form this spring too. It doesn't seem like Pep's City has had that.
Maybe its just different training-regimes and how you approach the whole season, but I think there is a difference.
Also worth noting that Fergie's teams never really started out that well, but hit form around Christmas and then peaked during spring. Never 100% during the whole season though.
Don't you think that if this were true, it would have leaked out properly by now? A disgruntled played, a discarded coach or something like that?
Agreed and it was fortunate that their only rivals that year happened to be Spurs.
Guardiola admitted on MNF that tactics don't play as much part as people say they do in his teams. He said the most important thing was the "run, run, run"
Do you really think the other teams in our league can't be arsed to run around as much as them?
Do you really think the other teams in our league can't be arsed to run around as much as them?
Maybe. I just find it strange how they went from relegation fodder one season to runaway champions the next, and then straight back again. And the runaway champions bit was based on insane fitness and speed.
So Real Sociedad are the only team to dope in Spain? Fuentes admitted he worked with other clubs.
Watching Barcelona in the flesh made me convinced. People can say it's bitterness but I know it isn't. I couldn't believe the Spanish Courts ordered to have the blood bags destroyed. As that article says if that was Russia or China there would be uproar.
I see similar signs with Guardiola's City now. Watch them next season, it's their running and intensity that sets them above their opponents. Guardiola admitted as much in his MNF with Neville. Watch them closely next season.
I’d say the article summarises (though not extensively) plenty of times it has leaked out.
Any team that has ever beaten United to anything has doped
Does anyone know how strict the testing currently is and does it vary from league to league. It’s also not like there is just one test that shows up everything. There are all the possible contaminations from proteins, creatine, amino acids whatever they use. So easy for those to contain anything.
If they are taking testosterone injections you’d have to be getting your levels tested every month to see where they are at and so on. Do the FA or whoever even test for these things, do they test for masking agents and so on.
I remember reading something about cyclists and how they store bags of their blood then race day or the day before they’d put it back in their system so they had a higher content of red blood cells or whatever. Then IV’s, apparently there use is illegal but the benefits I presume are quite short lived and out of your system quickly.
That snuff stuff is apparently all the rage now and I’m sure there was a piece on Vardy using it recently.
Problem is there are so many ways to cheat the system and with such a large base of competitors it must be near impossible to test everyone and for everything.
If they are taking testosterone injections you’d have to be getting your levels tested every month to see where they are at and so on. Do the FA or whoever even test for these things, do they test for masking agents and so on.
I remember reading something about cyclists and how they store bags of their blood then race day or the day before they’d put it back in their system so they had a higher content of red blood cells or whatever. Then IV’s, apparently there use is illegal but the benefits I presume are quite short lived and out of your system quickly.
That snuff stuff is apparently all the rage now and I’m sure there was a piece on Vardy using it recently.
Problem is there are so many ways to cheat the system and with such a large base of competitors it must be near impossible to test everyone and for everything.
what do you mean by running about? City we're in the bottom half of the table for distance covered and Liverpool players ran over 100k further so are they doping too?
That's it.
It amazes me that some fans believe that doping isn't rife in football.
Where so much money is at stake, it amazes me that people wouldn't dope.
In fact, people have doped for far less financial reward than what a top footballer would make.
Put it this way, if a footballer is good, but he needs that extra 5% to be at an elite level (and earn an elite wage), why would he not dope?
So the Spanish are the only ones dumb enough to leave a trial?
Obviously doping is widespread but it seems that the Spanish have been on a different level to other nations in this regard.
The spike in on pitch deaths from heart conditions in Spain in the 00's is also concerning although no link can be proven.
https://www.thenational.ae/sport/my...umber-of-footballing-deaths-in-spain-1.369924
Last edited:
I'm glad we are still having these discussions because it seems they are far too easily forgotten. This is probably due to an almost complete absence of media exposure/speculation on the topic for fear of a libel case for defamation. Either that or certain people have been paid off.
Football and particularly the PL as a brand are far too valuable for any information relating to PEDs to be allowed to be leaked. I hope it comes out as a 'me too' style saga at some point though, the people deserve to know.
Football and particularly the PL as a brand are far too valuable for any information relating to PEDs to be allowed to be leaked. I hope it comes out as a 'me too' style saga at some point though, the people deserve to know.
Sprint speed and recovery from sprints. Football is different in this discipline to a lot of other sports.
Whoever runs the most KM's is a different matter.
Sprinting is much more tiring then paced jogging.
Of course it's all speculation and what I said is pure speculation, whether I already convinced myself or not, it will always be speculation in truth.Ok, so you're saying Manchester United doped because we were successful?
There hasn't been even the slightest hint of it in the press or the courts... a very different situation to what has been going on in Spain. I used the word "faith" and with a "
When someone makes an accusation against someone else without any proof, it usually says more about the accuser than the accused.
Why did you ask the question by the way? You've already made up your mind with a fairytale's worth of proof.
It just doesn't compute for me that a sports that generates so much money isn't filled with more doping cases in comparison to other less "famous" sports and the PL is the league that generates the most money and interest.
The more money involved and the more likelihood athletes will use any means necessary to stay at the top.
Regarding your 2nd sentence I put in bold, I'm not gonna derail this thread even if the envy is really strong. Proof is important for sure but it never prevents the common folk from having an opinion on any subject.
Absolutely. Like you said, there are sports where the athletes earn far less but still dope because they wanna stay relevant in their field in terms of performance. Why would football be immune from it ? Why would football in England be immune from it too ?
of course it is, but when you have the ball 65%+ most of the time you get more rest, let the ball do the running
The article mentions Real Sociedad and some cyclists and then a load of innuendo.
With the cyclists, time and again something was leaked and then definitively proven and then the individuals/teams have been banned/sanctioned.
I am talking about that kind of substantive leak which constitutes actionable proof.
All the stuff about the Spanish authorities covering things up may or may not be true but they have no sway in our league and I just find it hard to believe that it could stay a secret in the EPL.
You’re asking why someone hasn’t essentially cut off their nose to spite their face.
It’s very hard to acquire categorical proof when Spain’s own governing body does whatever it can to cover it up. There are journalists and players alike who have effectively admitted to it contained in those points in the article. Do you think this is all a catalogue of misquotes and brain farts? There’s a hell of a lot of coincidence for there to be nothing there.
That's fair enough, I just didn't like what I felt was condescension in your tone. I'm not clear as to why you mention envy. I'm personally not envious of the success of the Spanish teams, and honestly, if they are innocent, think it's a real shame that there will always be so much controversy surrounding that period of excellent performance. It's difficult to be envious of other clubs when you've been lucky enough to support United through the most successful period in our history. Of course, you want your team to win, I want us to win every game... but it's not all about the winning.
Please tell me this is a circle-jerk/comfort blanket thread..
Absolutely. Like you said, there are sports where the athletes earn far less but still dope because they wanna stay relevant in their field in terms of performance. Why would football be immune from it ? Why would football in England be immune from it too ?
By "envy" I meant " i wanna to" but used the french meaning of "envie" in my brain but with the English spelling by mistake
How doping is tested by the FA:
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/testing-programme
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43036338
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jul/31/drug-testing-fa-premier-league-players
Short story: Testing done after matches, at the training ground or at the players home. Only urine sample is collected. Tests can be anounced or a suprise visit. Nr. of test have increased over the last two decades. This season over 5000 tests were conducted by the FA in the football leagues, averaging a little more than 1 test per player.
Methods of doping:
http://theconversation.com/the-science-of-doping-and-how-cheating-athletes-pass-drug-tests-45602
http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/2014/03/28/doping-methods/
It is likely that this is not done on an individual level at football clubs. Most likely some(if not all major clubs) has such an "expert" tied to their team. And this expert creates a program for the whole team, dependent on when the team want to perform to their fullest(Real Madrid final games of the champions league e.g.).
Problem with only testing urine:
As for why certain teams(Man City and Liverpool) looks so sharp all the time; They do more PEDs. The higher the risk, the bigger the gain.
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/testing-programme
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43036338
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jul/31/drug-testing-fa-premier-league-players
Short story: Testing done after matches, at the training ground or at the players home. Only urine sample is collected. Tests can be anounced or a suprise visit. Nr. of test have increased over the last two decades. This season over 5000 tests were conducted by the FA in the football leagues, averaging a little more than 1 test per player.
Methods of doping:
http://theconversation.com/the-science-of-doping-and-how-cheating-athletes-pass-drug-tests-45602
http://globalsportsdevelopment.org/2014/03/28/doping-methods/
- Blood doping: Infusion of blood or drugs(EPO) to increase the amount of haemoglobin(red blood cells), making your blood able to increase the amount of O2 it is carrying. Hard to detect, and extremely effective for endurance sports, like football. EPO can be detected using a mix of both urine/blood samples, but since EPO is naturally produced in kidneys it is hard to see what is natural and what is doped without many test over time. Blood transfusions can only be tested creating a blood profile that is based on your bloodlevels over time.
- Growth hormone(HGH/anabolic steroids, as seen in Icarus): Increased muscle production and regeneration of muscles, making you able to train harder and becoming stronger/faster. Extremely little chance of detecting it through urine testing, and those who are caught are done so through blood sampling.
- Stimulants: increase activity in the central and peripheral nervous systems. As a result, athletes who use them can experience enhanced focus, aggression, and energy. Which would be helpful in football.
- Sedatives: Reduced nervousness and increased focus.
It is likely that this is not done on an individual level at football clubs. Most likely some(if not all major clubs) has such an "expert" tied to their team. And this expert creates a program for the whole team, dependent on when the team want to perform to their fullest(Real Madrid final games of the champions league e.g.).
Problem with only testing urine:
- Primary used for testing against recreational drug use like weed and cocaine(That is how Jake Livermore got caught).
- Easy to block using masking drugs that stops the kidney from releasing certain elements into the urine. There are diuretics that dilutes the urine making it harder to detect the presence of drugs.
- The timeframe for detecting the use of doping from urine samples are in many instances much shorter than blood and hair samples(You dont replace your hear 3-5 times a day, nor your blood...)
- Certain times of doping, like blood doping, can not be detected using urine test.
- They only perform urine tests. Easy to circumvent either through time frame peds are detectable, use of masking drugs or does not detect the most effective PEDs. If they were to start taking blood samples, this would make it much harder to use doping, but without creating a blood profile and test regulary for many years it will not have that big of an effect. Only testing urine samples has been outdated for 20 years(The finnish started with blood doping in the late 60ies.), and is inviting the players and clubs to use PEDs.
- Number of tests: The creation of blood profiles needs regular blood testing over time. Having one test per season will not create enough data to build a blood profile. Also, the number of urine testing is to low. In Icarus the time frame from fully "doped" to clean urine sample was between 1 and 2 weeks. 1 test per season on average is laughable.
As for why certain teams(Man City and Liverpool) looks so sharp all the time; They do more PEDs. The higher the risk, the bigger the gain.
Last edited:
Sounds like it to me.
It's proven City's individual players run less than other teams.
My own opinion is that this is probably endemic in football.