Peterson, Harris, etc....

Pagh Wraith said:
But that's the heart of the matter, isn't it? It makes little sense to me going back to the Crusades and witch burning to defend what's currently wrong with Islam. Looking at the worst examples of Christians at the moment, we end up with people such as Mike Pence or some far-right extremists such as the KKK that have very little influence. That's a long way removed from the stronghold that deeply immoral and anti-liberal values have over large parts of the Muslim world.

As you said most Christians (thankfully) ignore all the nonsense in the Bible and cherry-pick the good bits. Hopefully a modern Islam can go down that route as well (my wish that religion disappears all together isn't going to happen in my lifetime) but this requires not being afraid to point out all the things that are wrong with it currently due to political correctness or fear of being labelled offensive or worst. That is way people such as Sam Harris are important.
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I think, speaking as an atheist, that would be an awfully boring world to live in.

Also I doubt Sam Harris is needed for any of this. If our laws and freedoms are so right and proper in the western world - then simply hold everyone to the same standard.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
Hopefully a modern Islam can go down that route as well (my wish that religion disappears all together isn't going to happen in my lifetime) but this requires not being afraid to point out all the things that are wrong with it currently due to political correctness or fear of being labelled offensive or worst. That is way people such as Sam Harris are important.
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Whatever you think of Harris's views, he's never going to be particularly important when it comes to the question of reforming Islam (which seems to be what you're hoping for). There have been and are plenty of Muslims arguing from within the Islamic scholarly and discursive tradition who are involved in the ongoing process of critique and reform. An outsider like Harris might persuade the odd Muslim that their faith is essentially bollox, but that's the most he can hope for.
 
Minimalist said:
I think, speaking as an atheist, that would be an awfully boring world to live in.
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Only if you treat religion as something like Santa Claus, a children's story that doesn't cause any harm.

But religion still plays such an important role in many parts of the world (and not in a good way) that I'd rather see it go all together. We don't need superstition and made up nonsense to be moral.
 
2cents said:
Whatever you think of Harris's views, he's never going to be particularly important when it comes to the question of reforming Islam (which seems to be what you're hoping for). There have been and are plenty of Muslims arguing from within the Islamic scholarly and discursive tradition who are involved in the ongoing process of critique and reform. An outsider like Harris might persuade the odd Muslim that their faith is essentially bollox, but that's the most he can hope for.
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That is true. I wasn't speaking of Harris' influence in the Muslim world nor do I believe he will persuade anyone to leave their religion. But I do see him (and others) as important in the "Western discourse" as criticism of Islam is often shouted down for aforementioned reasons.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
Only if you treat religion as something like Santa Claus, a children's story that doesn't cause any harm.

But religion still plays such an important role in many parts of the world (and not in a good way) that I'd rather see it go all together. We don't need superstition and made up nonsence to be moral.
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Well, it can be more than a children's story without causing harm.

And religion is a cause for good as well as bad, even if not required in our world.
 
@2cents
Thanks for the suggestions & article, I'll give that one a read. In case I'm looking for material beyond Robinson I'll PM you.

@Mciahel Goodman
Thanks too; Perhaps I'll have a question on this, I'd post in the General CE thread then.
 
entropy said:
dumb ideas always stand out, with or without hipsters pointing them out.
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Ok well you are not adding anything constructive to this thread, so either do so, or else you are outta here.
 
Raoul said:
Ok well you are not adding anything constructive to this thread, so either do so, or else you are outta here.
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I’ve already mentioned how he discarded other papers on the same issue which were contrary to what he was proposing on his podcast with Murray. The idea is just dumb af.
 
entropy said:
I’ve already mentioned how he discarded other papers on the same issue which were contrary to what he was proposing on his podcast with Murray. The idea is just dumb af.
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Ok fair enough. No worries.
 
Raoul said:
Ok fair enough. No worries.
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And the scary part to me, is not the theory in itself, but how these ideas go mainstream because of someone like him. It makes it ok for his fans or followers to quote this kind of crap as truth or valid arguments. When in reality they are half truths and lopsided statements.
 
entropy said:
And the scary part to me, is not the theory in itself, but how these ideas go mainstream because of someone like him. It makes it ok for his fans or followers to quote this kind of crap as truth or valid arguments. When in reality they are half truths and lopsided statements.
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That's a perfectly fair and valid criticism of Harris, and one where his entire schtick falls a bit flat. He is basically an ethnic Jew, turned uber-Athiest who is attempting to comprehensively debunk religion in general from the outside looking in. I do think he makes some valid points in that we should all be promoting the conditions whereby people of all religions have the ability to critique and improve their own ideas from within, without fear of persecution.
 
Raoul said:
That's a perfectly fair and valid criticism of Harris, and one where his entire schtick falls a bit flat. He is basically an ethnic Jew, turned uber-Athiest who is attempting to comprehensively debunk religion in general from the outside looking in. I do think he makes some valid points in that we should all be promoting the conditions whereby people of all religions have the ability to critique and improve their own ideas from within, without fear of persecution.
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Ideally, I can agree with that. But we live in a post-Trump/brexit world. I think it is equally important to criticise ideas such as these, before it is too late and people start peddling half truths as valid arguments against racial/religious minorities.
 
entropy said:
Ideally, I can agree with that. But we live in a post-Trump/brexit world. I think it is equally important to criticise ideas such as these, before it is too late and people start peddling half truths as valid arguments against racial/religious minorities.
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True....agree with that.
 
At the risk of being threatened with a threadban, for sharing the content of an anonymous hipster - I quite enjoy enjoy Jordan Peterson and Kermit the frog as a combination.

 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
At the risk of being threatened with a threadban, for sharing the content of an anonymous hipster - I quite enjoy enjoy Jordan Peterson and Kermit the frog as a combination.

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Is that Peterson ? (his voice I mean).
 
Thought this was great. Brand does a great job in debating Harris here. Used to run away from his videos but recently he has been growing on me.

 
Raoul said:
I'm going to have to investigate Peterson a bit. Keep hearing about him in these debates.
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Another of those who Dave Rubin likes to have on his show. Very popular with those concerned about what they see as the negative effects of feminism and trans rights. As far as I can tell he and Sam Harris seem to have a complicated relationship.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Another of those who Dave Rubin likes to have on his show. Very popular with those concerned about what they see as the negative effects of feminism and trans rights. As far as I can tell he and Sam Harris seem to have a complicated relationship.
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I don't know what to make of Rubin either. Can't tell if he's left, slightly right, or just straddling the fence to appear objective.
 
Raoul said:
I don't know what to make of Rubin either. Can't tell if he's left, slightly right, or just straddling the fence to appear objective.
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I think he's clearly 'libertarian'. Low taxes for the rich and let the gays marry, etc... He says a lot of contradictory nonsense, to be honest, but I think the overall theme is clear.

He isn't half fond of nodding along with or even defending some seriously right-wing folk, though, these days.

 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I think he's clearly 'libertarian'. Low taxes for the rich and let the gays marry, etc... He says a lot of contradictory nonsense, to be honest, but I think the overall theme is clear.

He isn't half fond of nodding along with or even defending some seriously right-wing folk, though, these days.

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LOL. I'm sure the bit about Robinson sat oddly with everyone across the pond.
 
Pagh Wraith said:
As hobbers said, Affleck had absolutely nothing to offer. All religion is poisonous but Islam is clearly worse than others. Take a look at some of the research that has been done by Pew on some of the views that are commonly held my Muslims and tell me you are not absolutely disgusted by that, e.g. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Harris' statement that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas and contrary to our liberal values is an important one and something I completely agree with.

Religion is a [deleted] and one can only hope that it will be eradicted sooner than later. Not by force but through arguments and education. And certainly not by misconceived tolerance towards the indefensible as displayed by Ben Affleck in the clip.
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This would be nice had you supplemented the pew poll with other polls such as Gallup which have different findings and paint a different picture. This has been done many times but ignored. These things have been offered by many including progressives and those with liberal values and those in the atheism plus movement, when they do they get termed "regressive left".

Whats contrary to our liberal values is the pseudoscientific belief in the phrenology-esque extrapolations of the Charles Murray data and other data in an unscientific manner to justify bigotry. Bigotry which is predicated on hyperbolic, polemical and often selective reading of data. As a doctor and a biomedical scientist, the stench of cargo cult science around some proponents of new atheism (and their fanbase) is overwhelming. Many in scientific academic, journalism and social media have sensed it and are rightly pushing back against it.
 
Raoul said:
Not surprising. There is a politically correct orthodoxy within certain corporate owned mainstream media that doesn't allow ideas that contradict the "we are all exactly equal" narrative.
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I don't think the reason that these things are discussed so little is the narrative you described but a fear of some people will make of it simply given out of what they made of it in the past.
 
Raoul said:
Thought this was great. Brand does a great job in debating Harris here. Used to run away from his videos but recently he has been growing on me.

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I watched half of that. Harris is so incredibly naive it’s torture to hear him speak. You’d think a man who has, undoubtedly, a considerable capacity for rational thought would be more aware of the flaws in his narrative. He still has a few doors to open in his world view before he becomes someone worth spending time listening to.
 
IhabX7 said:
I watched half of that. Harris is so incredibly naive it’s torture to hear him speak. You’d think a man who has, undoubtedly, a considerable capacity for rational thought would be more aware of the flaws in his narrative. He still has a few doors to open in his world view before he becomes someone worth spending time listening to.
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Harris' kryptonite is actually Brand talking about love and compassion. Thought he was the first person I've seen somewhat dismantle Harris' usual schtick with non-argumentative observations that all of the usual new atheist critics weren't able to.
 
Raoul said:
Harris' kryptonite is actually Brand talking about love and compassion. Thought he was the first person I've seen somewhat dismantle Harris' usual schtick with non-argumentative observations that all of the usual new atheist critics weren't able to.
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Could you tell me where that is in the interview, please? Can't be arsed to sit through the whole thing.
 
IhabX7 said:
Could you tell me where that is in the interview, please? Can't be arsed to sit through the whole thing.
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Its Brand's general sentiment toward Harris throughout the entire interview. There are also numerous instances where Brand attempts to paint Harris as cynical and angry (check the 1:00:00 mark for one of many times he did it) that really sort of keeps Harris on the moral back foot throughout much of the interview. When he's debating new atheist critic types, Harris can unleash his usual fact based schtick on them. With Brand, he is being forced to account for his own humanity (or possible lack there of) of his ideas, which makes him (Harris) a bit uncomfortable imo.
 
Raoul said:
Its Brand's general sentiment toward Harris throughout the entire interview. There are also numerous instances where Brand attempts to paint Harris as cynical and angry (check the 1:00:00 mark for one of many times he did it) that really sort of keeps Harris on the moral back foot throughout much of the interview. When he's debating new atheist critic types, Harris can unleash his usual fact based schtick on them. With Brand, he is being forced to account for his own humanity (or possible lack there of) of his ideas, which makes him (Harris) a bit uncomfortable imo.
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Very interesting. A lot of Harris' facts are based on statistical research which is in many cases agenda-driven to start with. I do like your assessment of the "tactic" Brand used here, so I'm gonna watch it.
 
IhabX7 said:
Very interesting. A lot of Harris' facts are based on statistical research which is in many cases agenda-driven to start with. I do like your assessment of the "tactic" Brand used here, so I'm gonna watch it.
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Also, listen to the exchange at 21 minutes in. Very interesting.
 
Raoul said:
Also, listen to the exchange at 21 minutes in. Very interesting.
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That's it. I've heard enough from Harris, he is so out of touch and so uninformed that it's painful to watch. Kudos to Brand though, good stuff from him.
 
Raoul said:
Thought this was great. Brand does a great job in debating Harris here. Used to run away from his videos but recently he has been growing on me.

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I was surprised by how good an account of himself Russel Brand gave.
 
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