I think Wenger had an information advantage early on because he knew so much of the French game at a time when French football was reaching a peak. He has come nowhere near the success he had then for several years.
Phil Jones
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Pogue's point is fair enough, in that the only one that seems (to me) obvious is Wenger, and even that's disputed.
But I only really follow United closely, I don't keep a tally of other club's purchases, except maybe the Scousers', for comedy value. When I look at SAF's buys, they seem to me to be what you'd expect of someone with a good but fallible eye for a player and large resources, in terms of money and personel, at his disposal... but not brilliant, in the way that other aspects of his management are brilliant.
But I only really follow United closely, I don't keep a tally of other club's purchases, except maybe the Scousers', for comedy value. When I look at SAF's buys, they seem to me to be what you'd expect of someone with a good but fallible eye for a player and large resources, in terms of money and personel, at his disposal... but not brilliant, in the way that other aspects of his management are brilliant.
It's subjective with Hargreaves. I didn't think he was very good even when he was fit. Apart from when he was played out wide which isn't what we siged him for anyway. Just a poorer version of someone like Mascherano. Saha was a sicknote and I thought he was a decent signing.
I don't like the "we wouldn't have won the double without him" argument because it's presumptious. We might not have. We might not have won the league in 09 without Macheda, doesn't mean he would have been a good signing if we'd paid nearly £20m for him and then let him go for free a few years later due to him not being up to task.
Not sure with Wenger. He does an amazing job based on what he spends but no one really knows why he doesn't spend. Plus he keeps signing fannyboy midfield type players to try and compensate for having too many fannyboy midfield type players, and he's bought Arshavin and some defenders who are shit at defending. He probably gets it wrong as often as Fergie does, for me.
Redknapp just signs everyone and hopes some of them turn out to be good. He doesn't even know who half of the are. He's not left his car since 2008 in case some kids mistake him for Droopy the Dog and try to colour him in.
Hard for Moyes to sign any flops too since he's never allowed to sign anyone expensive enough for any of us to have heard of.
I don't really think there is a manager who's sound in the transfer market now I think about it. Fergie's as good as any I can think of but he's a bit hit and miss like everyone else, and has more chance of being able to get the players he wants than most.
He's pretty fecking good with defenders, hardly seems to make a mistake there. Even De Laet looks a bargain considering the price.
Not so sure about centre-mids though.
Not so sure about centre-mids though.
That sort of summarises my thinking of the matter. I don't think Ferguson is absolutely brilliant in the transfer market but I reckon he is the best of the bunch of managers we have now given the circumstances. I'm sure someone will pick someone out but one thing for certain it isn't Wenger.
The thing is it's almost impossible to compare Fergie to anyone (bar Wenger) because managers of lower ranked clubs kind of deal in a different market. As for managers who work for the other big clubs, they get sacked so often you can't always judge the true, long term, value of their signings. Also, when we discuss Fergie's bad buys we go quite a few years back. Most managers don't get so many years in their job.
Fergie has an excellent record in the transfer market. Wenger is great as well but he doesn't seem to give enough importance to the mental characteristics of the players he buys. Fergie can spot a winner much better.
Fair point, most managers wouldn't have been around to see Nani finally come good, and he would have been marked down as a bust for that manager and probably a success for which ever manager he had later, probably at a different club.
Continuity is a huge advantage to SAF, not only for imparting knowledge from the veterans to the new purchases but also for giving him enough time to properly develop a top young talent.
Another important factor in SAF's transfer dealings is the criteria he applies to all (most) new signings - the non footballing criteria.
It is generally known that SAF likes signing players who are not only talented, but they have to display certain characteristics - like mentally tough players. & this to me is the key to SAF achieving a rather good hit (rather than miss) rate with signings.
At times we dont even sign the most talented players out there, but players which SAF can hone and instill that winning mentality and fight into - to achieve and perform at levels almost truly above their own level. (if that makes sense).
It is generally known that SAF likes signing players who are not only talented, but they have to display certain characteristics - like mentally tough players. & this to me is the key to SAF achieving a rather good hit (rather than miss) rate with signings.
At times we dont even sign the most talented players out there, but players which SAF can hone and instill that winning mentality and fight into - to achieve and perform at levels almost truly above their own level. (if that makes sense).
It's fair to say that we went through a period of time when he got plenty of buys wrong, at the beginning of 2000s. Especially the Summer of 2003 when we got Djemba-Djemba, Bellion and Kleberson with Smith following Summer (I don't count Heinze because he was generally good when he was here).
Obviously we got Ronaldo during the same transfer window and Rooney next year but percentage of poor transfers was high at the time. He turned it around in 2005 when he got Park and VDS for £6m combined and then followed with Vidic and Evra at £6m each. Carrick was expensive but he was necessary and considering the amount of trophies we have won since we got him, I'd say he was well worth £18m.
Percentage of good transfers since Glazer's arrival has to be very high. Even blatant failures like Obertan or Tosic who barely played here managed to recoup the money we spent on them or even make a tidy profit. Bebe and Hargeaves are probably the only ones that have decreased in value, well in Hargreaves' case money simply evaporated.
Obviously we got Ronaldo during the same transfer window and Rooney next year but percentage of poor transfers was high at the time. He turned it around in 2005 when he got Park and VDS for £6m combined and then followed with Vidic and Evra at £6m each. Carrick was expensive but he was necessary and considering the amount of trophies we have won since we got him, I'd say he was well worth £18m.
Percentage of good transfers since Glazer's arrival has to be very high. Even blatant failures like Obertan or Tosic who barely played here managed to recoup the money we spent on them or even make a tidy profit. Bebe and Hargeaves are probably the only ones that have decreased in value, well in Hargreaves' case money simply evaporated.
The more I watch of him the more I think of Duncan Edwards. The lad's 19, two years ahead of the "never win it with kids" lads and he's bossing games. fecking scary.
fecking bollocks more like. I'm 20 years older than you and I never saw Duncan Edwards.
I've been very pleased with the way Jones has started, but this thread's gone seriously loopy.
He's comfortable on the ball and can really attack the space with his powerful running but Edwards is eulogised about because he was a complete player, a devastating attacker, I thought. I think people are getting ahead of themselves just a tad if they're thinking Jones can be the same. He's very talented and has a real presence, there's not really any need to pile on the superlatives and create unachievable expectations.
The comparisons are premature for sure - would be interesting to hear from people who actually saw Edwards
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooDevil View Post
That's awesome. When he made that run in the game day thread I said "Is that what Duncan Edwards looked like?" and someone said, "You'd have to ask Tom Clare."
I was looking up stats to try to tell someone Edwards developed faster than Jones, but 19 is when Edwards, according to wiki, came into the first team permanently and started playing in England's first XI.
And Jones was born on the same day Big Dunc passed away, 34 years later! Strange coincidence.
Energy transfer.
Originally Posted by gooDevil View Post
That's awesome. When he made that run in the game day thread I said "Is that what Duncan Edwards looked like?" and someone said, "You'd have to ask Tom Clare."
I was looking up stats to try to tell someone Edwards developed faster than Jones, but 19 is when Edwards, according to wiki, came into the first team permanently and started playing in England's first XI.
And Jones was born on the same day Big Dunc passed away, 34 years later! Strange coincidence.
Energy transfer.
I agree. I'm rarely the voice of moderation when it comes to our young players, but, as good as Jones is, I don't think he's done anything thus far to justify comparisons to arguably the greatest talent ever to play for United and England.
That's right, Edwards was a complete player, defence, midfield, or centre forward, and he was as good if not better than the best around in whatever position he played.
It's nice to see such optimism on the Caf this season, regarding both the team and our young players, but such early comparisions with possibly the greatest all round player to ever play the game, (Sir Bobby's words, not mine)are surely bordering on the ridiculous after only a handful of appearances in defence.
FFS.... which game has he exactly "bossed" so far? I understand ppl are getting giddy about him, but as usual, its getting out of order
I like the way everyone's suddenly an expert on Duncan Edwards when none of them apart from the bloke that first made the comparison (i.e. Tom Clare) has ever seen him play (no, not even a youtube compilation)
The lowest we have finished in the best league in the world has been 3rd for the past 21 years. Get a fecking grip mate. Yes we mighn't have played the most beautiful of football, but these 'shite' years you are talking about we won the FA Cup, Carling Cup and Community sheild, and only went one season without winning anything. Oh how we were so terribly shite back then. I'm only 20 years old and I am fully aware of how hugely spoilt we all have been in the past 2 decades.
And there's no one better than Fergie in the market. He proves it time and time again.
This is something that always baffled me. Everyone seems to be an expert on Edwards and everybody seems to know how good he was - although 95% of them have never ever seen him. They base their opinion on what they heard and on a few youtube clips... Lets be honest, Edwards has always been a bit of a myth as he did so young and there is also a lot of nostalgia and hype aroudn his legend.
And now, to compare Jones to him (after 4 games or so for Untied), its just ridiculous. And I know that those who hype Jones up now will be the first ones to say he's shit once things dont go that well (like Evans, Nani, Anderson, Giggs, Rooney etc etc....)
I'll say this much:
Phil Jones looks a much bigger talent than Chris Smalling did during his first starts last season. And look at Smalling now. Also, it doesn't excactly seem as Jones will be overly bothered about the pressure of playing for United..
Those words are as high a praise as anyone could give at the moment I reckon.
Phil Jones looks a much bigger talent than Chris Smalling did during his first starts last season. And look at Smalling now. Also, it doesn't excactly seem as Jones will be overly bothered about the pressure of playing for United..
Those words are as high a praise as anyone could give at the moment I reckon.
Aside from the guy who told me that Edwards is Ruud Guillet meets Desailly, all anyone said is that he brings Edwards to mind, which is a pretty light claim. The idea certainly popped into my head, which is why I asked, and it would seem there's some validity so it's not like it's outrageous.
What do you mean by 'not even a youtube compilation', there are such things.
If anyone hasn't seen him play a game, check it out!
What a horrible challenge that took Wood, the goalkeeper, out. No wonder get such good juju from Villa, our home away from home, they owe us!
Actually, the point I was making is that the one person who did draw the comparison is the only person on here qualified to have an opinion on the matter.
He was very clear that it was just a gut feeling, though, and stressed that Jones should only be judged on his own merits. Nothing wrong with saying that IMO. My bemusement was more aimed at those who seem to be experts on exactly the type of player that Edwards was - and the role he played in his team - despite not once seeing him play. If Tom Clare is reminded of Duncan Edwards when he watches Jones play, that's good enough for me.
Obviously TomClare can freely make the comparison, but the people who haven't seen him that are making the comparison, a comparison to a player they've not only not seen before but to a player that's been built up to be a mythical creature that could essentially dominate any facet of the game (which was my point, I was commenting on his reputation not his actual game) is completely mental, for a number of reasons.
I watched Edwards come through from the youth team till the end. He was the heartbeat of any team he played for and the 'go to man' despite playing with some brilliant footballers. He played for England at 18, incredible in the '50s when it really was a man's game. I've watched Jones and he is an extremely good player for his age. At the same age Edwards was considered a brilliant player, period.
I suppose that's quite fair. He doesn't look like the greatest player that ever lived in the 1957 FA Cup final. Though football is not so mysterious that you can't read about a player and then get the idea in your head that someone today might have similar attributes.
Paddy Crerand started this all, I think, by comparing the two.
It's not hard. If you're a side who's competing to win the league and European Cup, finishing 3rd and not getting close to the team who finished 1st, whilst being knocked out of Europe early doors, is a bit shite. As is signing the likes of Djemba Djemba and Liam Miller to try and replace Roy Keane.
I doubt Fergie's view would be all that different to be honest, which is what makes him such a good manager. More so than being an unheralded transfer muppet genius at any rate.
Here are some players who Ferguson has signed since 2000:
Ben Foster
Liam Miller
Djemba-Djemba
Kleberson
Bellion
Tosic
Bebe
Obertan
Mark Bosnic
Massimo Tiabe
Ricardo
Laurent Blanc (to replace Jap Stam!)
On the other hand there's been:
Hernandez
Valencia
Vidic
Evra
Rooney
Ronaldo
Smalling
Rafael
Fabio
Nani
VDS
Park
Plus loads I've left out because people would debate one way or the other. It's a decent record but no less hit and miss than with some other managers. It's other things that set Fergie apart. Mainly his ability to manage and turn players into a team of winners in such a high pressure environment.
Which bracket is Berbatov in noodle? 
In all fairness putting players like Obertan, Bellion and Foster on that list is harsh, and you've missed out some great signings like Berbatov, Tevez (cnut), Carrick and even players like Owen.
Tell Liverpool fans that.
I agree we have made bad signings. But we were never shit. Far from it. A shit team does not finish in the top 3 of the PL. Plus, saying Miller was bought to replace Keane is like saying Valencia was bought to replace Ronaldo. It's not always as simple as that.
You'll note that the average transfer fee of the players on your "miss" list will be relative peanuts. Every manager of every football club takes punts on players for small transfer fees that never make the grade.
If anything, Fergie's record at actually making money in these scenarios is better than most. The only difference between Fergie and other managers is that most of the ins/outs at other clubs for this kind of money wouldn't even be on the radar of the average United fan, so Fergis is doomed to be beaten round the head by the likes of Miller, Djemba-Djemba and Bellion for ever more by people who are completely unaware of the exact same sort of turnover happening at every big club in Europe..
Which bracket is Berbatov in noodle?
I've not included players who are up for debate. I like Berbatov and Carrick, but they get loads of stick from United fans. Also thought Berba wasn't the player we needed at the time, yet we paid 30+ million for him. Tevez is a great player but also a cock who spent half his time here sulking, and I'm still entirely not sure why we've got Owen.
We made a significant profit on Foster, Bellion, Tosic. We didn't lose money on Obertan, Miller or Djemba-Djemba. We lost money on Kleberson and will lose money on Bebe. I don't know about goalkeepers but I think Bosnich and Ricardo were free, we lost money on Taibi though. If you summed all those transfers up I think we'd break even.
SAF was sold on Owen's brochure. plus he's on a pay to play contract so there's no losing. how was anyone to know that Chicarito would come in and grab the league by the balls?
I highly doubt SAF would buy a player based on a brochure they made.
Why would I want to tell Liverpool fans that? They've put in a realistic challenge for the league about once in the last 15 years, and would be happy with 4th this season. Stuart Downing is probably a decent signing for Liverpool, he'd have been a poor one for United.
It's never as simple as replacing one player with another. Valencia is a good enough player to play for Manchester United, Liam Miller wasn't even good enough for Sunderland.
Try telling Sir Alex Ferguson that finishing 3rd isn't shite.
Every transfer is a punt to a degree. I've left off Veron and Hargreaves, who weren't signed for peanuts. In fact Veron's signing was a British record fee for a long while if I remember rightly.
The problem with the likes of Djemba is that they formed the basis of our first team in many games for that season. They weren't fringe punt signings who might turn out to be decent squad players. They were signed to try and maintain us as one of the top sides in Europe, and as a result our standards slipped and it took Fergie some amount of time to build them back up again (which to be fair you can't argue he hasn't done extremely well).
Christ you lot are precious sometimes.
buying and selling players to make money rahter than help the club be succesful is what teams like West Ham do.
Mourinho was arguably better than Fergie at spending big on players whilst he was in the UK. And like noods said, all transfers are punts, no matter who they are. Veron being the ultimate example of that.
I was kidding about that part. really, I was.
what about Forlan? for me that was like Veron. great player. just didn't fit in well with us.