Players Who Are Only Great Playing One Specific Way

BigDunc9 said:
Are people trying to claim Messi wouldn't be fantastic in a counter attack set up ?
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The current Barca attack looks better on a counter than when they're in possession. So much more space to exploit on a counter.
 
Player that immediately came to mind was Kagawa. Honourable mention for Mata too, looked awesome at Chelsea with their movement but half the player in his first season here. But i do think that's less to do with either player and more to do with our system. Last season our movement was so poor, and had been for a few years previous if we're honest. So i do side with the posters in this thread that say that you can apply this to most.

It does seem like we're progressing in that department however, playing with more triangles, seeing more energy off the ball etc. Lo and behold, Mata can look good even on the wing if he was runners to find. Who knew, eh? Would Kagawa cut it here now? I think he'd certainly look much improved, but i don't want to drag the fanboys into this so let's just say everyone is right and pay attention to something else.
 
matherto said:
Any player that has played under Klopp at Dortmund (including Götze and Lewandowski).
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Reus was the best player of the Bundesliga at Gladbach in a different role (2nd forward in difference to offensive midfielder) before joining Dortmund. He also impressed most of the time in the German nationalteam, which has a different set up. Similar to that Hummels formed by far the strongest CB pair with Boateng at the WC 2014.

Lewandowski´s performances so far at Bayern are also absolutely fine and Götze is still way too young to be written off.

Kagawa is a prime example for excelling in one specific style.
 
Berbatov also. Build a team around a 27 year old Berbatov and watch him score for fun, but he slowed us down too much to be a real success here.
 
Brwned said:
Messi
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I can see where you're coming from, but there have been a couple of instances where he's excelled in a more direct, reactive set-up (Arg NT under Sabella, Barça under Lucho this season). Though perhaps not to the same level of consistency.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
That was almost at the start of his career, to be considered flexibility!
He is a class act only when playing in front of the defence with a hard working midfield built around him.
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Can't believe we're talking about Pirlo like that. He is one of the rare players in the world who can change the direction of the offensive flow in a meaningful way.
It's like saying Scholes or Zidane are useless without hard working midfield, well... yes? It's almost normal, isn't it?

Pirlo's particularity is that he can launch attacks from behind the usual AM position and that makes him unique because he provides an extra layer of possibilities that other DM / CM or even AM cannot provide.
Scholes used to have those long passes that were really useful to open the game.

Undermining this ability does not make him a less good player, in any system. Yes, in a flat 4 it would be tougher for him to shine but he would still be valuable.
 
Brwned said:
Messi
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I agree. Nobody can argue for the fact that Messi has been just as good for Argentina as his best for Barcelona. The same can be said for Messi in his peak versus Messi in the current more direct setup.
 
Gasolin said:
Yes, in a flat 4 it would be tougher for him to shine but he would still be valuable.
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Isn't it the same as what I said? For him to be class, he needs a good set up. For me, if you had a talent like Pirlo in your team...the rest should be built around him. Not very different from Platini at the other end. They are good players normally, but if a side is built around them, they are truly out of the world!
 
Annahnomoss said:
I agree. Nobody can argue for the fact that Messi has been just as good for Argentina as his best for Barcelona. The same can be said for Messi in his peak versus Messi in the current more direct setup.
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Are you mad? He was sensational on the wing, as a striker and as a false 9!
 
Sterling. Only with Liverpool he doesn't turn into just a speed merchant. Once he leaves though...
 
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Mciahel Goodman said:
Berbatov.
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His numbers for us weren't really that bad, not much different from his career numbers. Even when we played to suit him, and we persisted with doing that for a long time at the beginning of that first season, iirc, he never looked great .

But I do get what you mean, he has very particular skills and if you asked him to help the team through other skills he would probably look pretty poor.
 
gooDevil said:
Are you mad? He was sensational on the wing, as a striker and as a false 9!
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You're the one who said it had nothing to do with positions.

gooDevil said:
I'd like to point out I'm not talking about different positions, not that you said I was. I'm not even really talking about playing as a lone striker vs. playing with a partner.

We've play Falcao up top on his own, he still looked terrible because we weren't playing to his strengths. He simply has no game outside of his very narrow speciality. He's very extreme in this regard. It's not like we're hoofing it to him and asking him to win headers, something completely alien to his game. We haven't been asking him to do anything all that different to what he's bene used to, like asking Xavi to play in Stoke's spray-and-pray style.
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gooDevil said:
*Facepalm* Clearly you don't understand the question...

Or think you're funny!
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It's commonly accepted that Messi is far less performing with Argentina than with Barcelona. Otherwise he would be world champion.
On the paper, they do have great players to put with Messi so if it does not work out, it means that the system does not work out with Messi and ultimately...

I mean, if you can't win with the likes of Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano, Lavezzi... do you think those are less "good" then the Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets of Barcelona at their peak?
 
Annahnomoss said:
Tell me which Argentina year he compared to one of his Barcelona peak years? There hasn't been one.
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Who cares? My point is, he's shown he's a player who can be world class in many different tactics from the same position, and also from I multiple positions. The issues of whether this also translates to international football are irrelevant to me.
 
Brwned said:
You're the one who said it had nothing to do with positions.
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I meant that I'm not talking about a challenge as big as playing in another position, just the challenge of playing in the same position just with moderate to slight tactical changes. Playing in another position entirely would be, to my mind, an even greater challenge and proof that player could handle a slight tactical change, as this seems to require much less adaptability than playing an entire different position.
 
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Gasolin said:
It's commonly accepted that Messi is far less performing with Argentina than with Barcelona. Otherwise he would be world champion.
On the paper, they do have great players to put with Messi so if it does not work out, it means that the system does not work out with Messi and ultimately...

I mean, if you can't win with the likes of Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano, Lavezzi... do you think those are less "good" then the Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets of Barcelona at their peak?
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Yes, they are less good. Also, there was no continuity from youth to full team level, unlike with Spain. Also Maradona as manager. Lots of other factors.
 
Every single player in the world. Always found it funny how people criticized Kagawa and players of his ilk for not being able to be as good as they should be in systems that are completely opposite to how they usually play. Some players can be class for both, but the vast majority of players will look half the player in systems they aren't suited to.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Nah, no worries. I've seem him as a regista (4-3-1-2) and in a midfield 2 (4-4-2), so based it upon that. Again, maybe he has not played it often, but I do agree that he certainly has the talent to perform as trequartista.
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Again, I'm going off the idea that if a player can play another position entirely, he can certainly play his favored position in a slightly different away tactically and still excell. And so I think it illustrates Pirlo could easily play a moderately different set of tactics and still look like a great player. And he's shown he can play as a central midfielder and as a holding playmaker in a two or three man midfield. So to me that would all illustrate the same sort of diversity.

I think a good example of what I'm thinking of is when Fergie went all conservative away in Europe in 2007-8, mostly players played the same position, but they all showed they could play another set of tactics and perform somewhat different roles and still be great.
 
Did Porto, Monaco & Atletico all play the same system?

I'm not clued up enough to answer - but the reason I'm asking is that I'm not sure Falcao is a good example of a striker not being able to play "multiple systems". He's a classic #9, and as such he'll always play CF.

What I think happened to Falcao is a "Torres". 1 too many serious knee injuries and he literally just looks a shadow of his former self.

Whether or not he'll ever reach his old level or something close to it, is anyone's guess but it's really difficult to see.
 
Yeah i think even playing to a style suiting Falcao wouldn't really help him. His own personal style was heavily based on acceleration, energy, tenacity etc. Multiple, serious injuries just robbed him of those attributes. Even if you put the wrong player in the wrong system, they can sometimes look effective i.e Berbatov and the golden boot, Kagawa vs Norwich, you're just never going to see their full potential.
 
I think Messi has it in him to be flexible. The one who burst onto the scene was very direct and I genuinely think he could play for any team when in good form and add value to that team either as a 10 or winger cutting in. I don't think same can be said for Xavi.

I don't think he has a varied style of play though - he only has one way of playing and he does it extremely well but it does mean he can be snuffed out of games where defences are very well drilled.
 
Balotelli. Sadly that one great specific playing style hasn't been discovered yet though.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Tell me which Argentina year he compared to one of his Barcelona peak years? There hasn't been one.
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Could that not be put down to the quality of players he is playing with though and not being able to build an understanding with them?
 
Raees said:
I think Messi has it in him to be flexible. The one who burst onto the scene was very direct and I genuinely think he could play for any team when in good form and add value to that team either as a 10 or winger cutting in. I don't think same can be said for Xavi.

I don't think he has a varied style of play though - he only has one way of playing and he does it extremely well but it does mean he can be snuffed out of games where defences are very well drilled.
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I watched the highlights of Barcelona 5-0 Madrid yesterday and it was amazing to see how Messi basically had a hand in most of the goals with his amazing passing and awareness.

I hope he leaves Barcelona and shows his ability in another league. I'm not saying that because I doubt his ability but because it would be amazing to see if he does something like a Maradona-Napoli.
 
Fellaini. He's ineffective in a traditional midfield role, but a beast when pushed further forward.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Tell me which Argentina year he compared to one of his Barcelona peak years? There hasn't been one.
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2012, he was just as good for Argentina as for Barça in my opinion (perhaps even better). 9 games, 12 goals, including hat-tricks in friendlies against Switzerland and Brazil (a magnificent one that was), a great performance and a goal against Germany, and excellent performances against Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Ecuador in WC qualifying.
 
gooDevil said:
Good answer.
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Not really.

He can play at RB, wingback and as a winger. He can beat his marker for pace (and strength) or deliver early crosses. He is useful in patient games or fast counter attacking ones. In fact, he survived multiple formation changes.
 
Messi would be even more terrifying under Mourinho. He's already shown time and time again how good he is with space in front him, imagine what he would do in the PL.

For those of you saying he hasn't performed for Argentina, he did great in the WC all things considered. The team had a defensive setup from the get-go and a strikeforce of Aguero, Higuain, Palacio, Lavezzi and Di Maria who all scored just 2 goals in total while they missed dozens of easy chances, set up by Messi. Of course, it wasn't his peak performance, but if you don't hold him to his own ridiculous standards, he did very well.
 
Galactic said:
Not really.

He can play at RB, wingback and as a winger. He can beat his marker for pace (and strength) or deliver early crosses. He is useful in patient games or fast counter attacking ones. In fact, he survived multiple formation changes.
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My thought is that he's only looked like a top player, who belongs at a club like United, playing one specific way in one position. He's servicable as a full back and wing back. Though of course a full back can be more attacking than the winger ahead of him, depending on tactics, such as Maicon and Eto'o the year when Mourinho's Intr won the CL with Milan. But Valencia has only ever excelled when beating his man down the wing and putting in early crosses.
 
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