I'd be equally content if he was sold or he signed a contract extension. I guess he's a good player but he has noticeable flaws and I honestly still don't know his best position or role. Be great if the club can get some money back on him but if he signs I guess that is good for sponsorship opportunities.
Same as you. I've always thought he's top quality, but he shows it so little, and the whole debate about how to fit him in is dull. The top players should bring performances out in others, instead we have to make all the factors right for him.
I'm hoping having a proper right winger, and a fast centre back are key signings that can take the pressure off the midfield.
Interesting point. He seemed to do well in Serie A though, would you say he's better suited to another league?
Don't think it's stupid from their perspective. If they don't clown around the league is theirs for the taking. They'd need Pogba to give them the star quality from midfield in the CL and with the right support he can definitely do that as he has already proven. I think he suits their ambitions well and 50 million is not too much in general for a player of his quality. Problem for us is that teams can just wait it out a year and save that entire amountIf PSG are stupid enough to offer us 50m take it and run.
Put Pogba's would-be wages into deals for Grealish and a ball-carrying midfielder in the mold of Goretzka (not actually going to be Goretzka).
Q. 20-25 years ago two man central midfields were all the vogue ala Keane and Scholes, Vieira and Petitt etc in 442. If Pogba was around back then where would he have played?
I would guess a wide left midfielder in a 442.
Thoughts?
I don't think we'll ever really see "Bleu Pogba" for United as he doesn't get anywhere near the same time and space as he does for France, the PL is, imo, too fast for his style.That is right, we have rarely seen him put up that level of performance in a Utd shirt and if we do sign him to a longer contract then we will just see more of the same that he has dished up for the past 5 yrs.
It is a shame as I would love to see the Bleu Pogba every week in a Utd shirt.
The criticism of Pogba is so over the top right now. I'd rather he played with us one more year and left on a free. I want to see:
Rashford Cavani SanchoTwo signings away from an actual top class 11 after so many years of dreaming of it and we want to sell our most talented central midfielder?
Fernandes Pogba
CDM
Shaw Maguire Varane AWB
De Gea
There is no magic defensive midfielder that can make that lineup balanced. Sure it'd work against bottom half teams, but we'd be fecked against the top half. Kante couldn't even make that work. Rashford and Sancho do very little defensive work, so as a result, we need to overcompensate with our double pivot to be more solid. That's why Camavinga would be way better for us than Pogba would, as he can actually play there and do a good job defensively. Same with Locatelli. But both would need to be partnered with a hard working defensive stable type too.The criticism of Pogba is so over the top right now. I'd rather he played with us one more year and left on a free. I want to see:
Rashford Cavani SanchoTwo signings away from an actual top class 11 after so many years of dreaming of it and we want to sell our most talented central midfielder?
Fernandes Pogba
CDM
Shaw Maguire Varane AWB
De Gea
Not that difficult, just requires a bit of creativity.The telling point is that whereas you name Varane as your CB target you don't name the magical unicorn CDM that will allow Pogba to play up alongside Bruno, as @kidbob mentioned that player just does not exist right now or at the very least is not attainable. The system that best suits the talent we have is a system that does not suit Paul, do we swap 10 players or just 1? I think we should sell and close this chapter.
He disappeared defensively before he lost the ball that led to their goal.Did he disappear before or after he put one on a plate for Mbappe in extra time? I’m confused by the timeline here.
I seem to remember a pretty successful team a few years back who lined up like this:There is no magic defensive midfielder that can make that lineup balanced. Sure it'd work against bottom half teams, but we'd be fecked against the top half. Kante couldn't even make that work. Rashford and Sancho do very little defensive work, so as a result, we need to overcompensate with our double pivot to be more solid. That's why Camavinga would be way better for us than Pogba would, as he can actually play there and do a good job defensively. Same with Locatelli. But both would need to be partnered with a hard working defensive stable type too.
I seem to remember a pretty successful team a few years back who lined up like this:
Ronaldo Benzema Bale
Kroos Modric
Casemiro
Marcelo. Ramos Varane Carvajal
Navas
If we had a Matuidi / Makelele / Kante / Casemiro world class CDM, that Real 11 would have a lot in Common with our
Look, I’m on record as being quite frustrated with Pogba, but to say there isn’t a CDM alive who can cover for him is a bit much. Having two world class CBs behind a CDM tends to help. Kante pairs with Pogba for France, and they won the WC. Yes, they were dumped out of the Euros, but it wasn’t due to Pogba’s play or effort. He generally made great effort in tracking back. The one exception was in the 80th-ish minute against the Swiss that unfortunately turned into a goal.
I have wanted Pogba to go for two years, but with this squad, assuming all transfers are completed that are confirmed ‘ rumored, it would be interesting to see them play. Pretty high ceiling if you ask me.
It’s absolute horse shite. To say no DM in the world can partner Pogba because he’s that bad defensively is pure nonsense imo.Look, I’m on record as being quite frustrated with Pogba, but to say there isn’t a CDM alive who can cover for him is a bit much. Having two world class CBs behind a CDM tends to help. Kante pairs with Pogba for France, and they won the WC. Yes, they were dumped out of the Euros, but it wasn’t due to Pogba’s play or effort. He generally made great effort in tracking back. The one exception was in the 80th-ish minute against the Swiss that unfortunately turned into a goal.
I have wanted Pogba to go for two years, but with this squad, assuming all transfers are completed that are confirmed ‘ rumored, it would be interesting to see them play. Pretty high ceiling if you ask me.
Modric and Kroos both played at a level that Pogba never reached, were both far better in possession, more reliable in possession, didn't get dispossessed anywhere near as much and both natural controllers. Pogba is more Iniesta or Zidane in terms of role. They take risks, they aren't made for the deeper controlling role. Both Modric and Kroos are also very hard working defensively and just perfectly suited to play in midfield, Pogba just isn't unless he's got 2 guys around him. In our team, the way I see it, Pogba's only possible positions are on the left where Rashford or Sancho will be, or in Bruno's spot. For smaller games can go in midfield, not for bigger games.I seem to remember a pretty successful team a few years back who lined up like this:
Ronaldo Benzema Bale
Kroos Modric
Casemiro
Marcelo. Ramos Varane Carvajal
Navas
If we had a Matuidi / Makelele / Kante / Casemiro world class CDM, that Real 11 would have a lot in Common with our
Look, I’m on record as being quite frustrated with Pogba, but to say there isn’t a CDM alive who can cover for him is a bit much. Having two world class CBs behind a CDM tends to help. Kante pairs with Pogba for France, and they won the WC. Yes, they were dumped out of the Euros, but it wasn’t due to Pogba’s play or effort. He generally made great effort in tracking back. The one exception was in the 80th-ish minute against the Swiss that unfortunately turned into a goal.
I have wanted Pogba to go for two years, but with this squad, assuming all transfers are completed that are confirmed ‘ rumored, it would be interesting to see them play. Pretty high ceiling if you ask me.
You're referring to the period Ole just came in I think?We did well with Pogba and Matic for a spell before Matic legs went.
It’s absolute horse shite. To say no DM in the world can partner Pogba because he’s that bad defensively is pure nonsense imo.
We did well with Pogba and Matic for a spell before Matic legs went. It absolutely can work and like you said an improved defence behind him will help.
He played reserved and defensively with France at the World Cup and won a World Cup and was one of their best players.
It's not horse shit. But you have to take the whole team into account. There is no defensive midfielder in the world who can partner Pogba in a midfield 2 to play behind Rashford, Bruno, Sancho and a sstriker. That's the key. Rashford and Sancho really don't do much defensively. To accommodate, we need a more defensive base behind them. Pogba could work with the right midfield partner if he also has wingers who are hard working defensively. France played Matuidi out wide that world cup in addition to Kante, the guy is literally a defensive midfielder. And France played with basically half centerbacks at fullback providing more cover. If Pogba had Keane/Giggs/Beckham around him in 4-4-2, he would be fine in that too. Rashford and Sancho are extremely different from Giggs or Beckham, both in their play styles in possession with how reliable the passing is and the balance of risk taking, but especially off the ball defensive work. That's the biggest problem.It’s absolute horse shite. To say no DM in the world can partner Pogba because he’s that bad defensively is pure nonsense imo.
We did well with Pogba and Matic for a spell before Matic legs went. It absolutely can work and like you said an improved defence behind him will help.
He played reserved and defensively with France at the World Cup and won a World Cup and was one of their best players.
It’s not solely about our wingers, we also have top level defensive fullbacks.It's not horse shit. But you have to take the whole team into account. There is no defensive midfielder in the world who can partner Pogba in a midfield 2 to play behind Rashford, Bruno, Sancho and a sstriker. That's the key. Rashford and Sancho really don't do much defensively. To accommodate, we need a more defensive base behind them. Pogba could work with the right midfield partner if he also has wingers who are hard working defensively. France played Matuidi out wide that world cup in addition to Kante, the guy is literally a defensive midfielder. And France played with basically half centerbacks at fullback providing more cover. If Pogba had Keane/Giggs/Beckham around him in 4-4-2, he would be fine in that too. Rashford and Sancho are extremely different from Giggs or Beckham, both in their play styles in possession with how reliable the passing is and the balance of risk taking, but especially off the ball defensive work. That's the biggest problem.
I love how all of a sudden Pogba losing a ball in midfield against Switzerland is used to show he can't play in midfield when in that game he was by far the best French player and should have gotten 3 assists and did score a worldie. I guess once a narrative is created, it's just difficult to get rid of it
I love how all of a sudden Pogba losing a ball in midfield against Switzerland is used to show he can't play in midfield when in that game he was by far the best French player and should have gotten 3 assists and did score a worldie. I guess once a narrative is created, it's just difficult to get rid of it
I love how all of a sudden Pogba losing a ball in midfield against Switzerland is used to show he can't play in midfield when in that game he was by far the best French player and should have gotten 3 assists and did score a worldie. I guess once a narrative is created, it's just difficult to get rid of it
It's one thing playing as a 2 for a national team that plays to shut games down and puts a defensive midfielder on the wing - and another for a club team. France's style would literally never be acceptable at United, it's part of why Mourinho failed. We also are going to play Sancho and Rashford wide, not Matuidi on a wing to help cover. We also have our fullbacks go forward and regularly overlap, France uses theirs very defensively. Pogba and Bruno are both attacking midfielders in their style. You can't partner 2 of them in midfield unless they are also naturally controlling types in possession, which they aren't, and you just can't put 2 attack minded midfielders in front of a single holder when your wingers are as attacking as ours. It'll be horrendously balanced and it doesn’t matter who our defenders are, they'll have people running at them all day due to the space that will be available.It’s not solely about our wingers, we also have top level defensive fullbacks.
Your telling me that Pogba alongside a top level DM wouldn’t work with Maguire and Varane behind them as well as Shaw and AWB tucking in when required?
I think that’s plenty enough, especially if Paul is asked to play like he did for France in that World Cup (in a more reserved role where he can commit more to the defensive side of his game.)
That would work in 90% of games and would be an excellent base to free up our forwards and importantly would still include Paul’s world class passing from deep.
Otherwise your literally saying that Pogba can only play as a left winger or a no 10. Where nobody has played him except us - oh because we don’t have a single decent DM at the club and haven’t in Paul’s time here.
All of a sudden? For Juve he had Marchisio and Pirlo do all the midfielding. Or vidal. Or sometimes all 3. Pogba was the cherry on the icing for them. He's never developed to be a different type of player, he's not the tempo setter, he's not the defensive hard worker, he's a support with everything but provides loads of creativity and ability on the ball. He's always needed to be almost carried by a couple of others in midfield. Only United has tried to make it work without that, and it hasn't. We wouldn't be having these conversations 5 years later if he was capable, trust me. There's 0 doubt about the likes of Modric or Kroos being able to play deep. That's how you know it works.I love how all of a sudden Pogba losing a ball in midfield against Switzerland is used to show he can't play in midfield when in that game he was by far the best French player and should have gotten 3 assists and did score a worldie. I guess once a narrative is created, it's just difficult to get rid of it
Judging from these statements, you didn't actually watch those teams a lot.All of a sudden? For Juve he had Marchisio and Pirlo do all the midfielding. Or vidal. Or sometimes all 3. Pogba was the cherry on the icing for them. He's never developed to be a different type of player, he's not the tempo setter, he's not the defensive hard worker, he's a support with everything but provides loads of creativity and ability on the ball. He's always needed to be almost carried by a couple of others in midfield. Only United has tried to make it work without that, and it hasn't. We wouldn't be having these conversations 5 years later if he was capable, trust me. There's 0 doubt about the likes of Modric or Kroos being able to play deep. That's how you know it works.
Are you telling me that Pogba dictated the tempo or played deeper than Pirlo, Marchisio did? That Pogba did more defensively? That he is more of a controlling midfielder than Kroos or Modric? I literally can't believe that this argument is still going on in 2021. Stop trying to make Pogba into a controlling midfielder. It has literally never been his game. I watched them plenty, I've watched plenty of France, I've watched plenty or Real Madrid, watched Modric since his Dinamo Zagreb days. Pogba isn't that type of player and isn't a patch on them from a positional or defensive POV, and isn't as controlled in possession. Pogba has always been best as a Zidane type of midfielder, just not on the same level of course. You need extra cover behind him, it's simple as that.Judging from these statements, you didn't actually watch those teams a lot.
Except Paul regularly has good games for us and the part your missing is the positives to having him on the pitch.It's one thing playing as a 2 for a national team that plays to shut games down and puts a defensive midfielder on the wing - and another for a club team. France's style would literally never be acceptable at United, it's part of why Mourinho failed. We also are going to play Sancho and Rashford wide, not Matuidi on a wing to help cover. We also have our fullbacks go forward and regularly overlap, France uses theirs very defensively. Pogba and Bruno are both attacking midfielders in their style. You can't partner 2 of them in midfield unless they are also naturally controlling types in possession, which they aren't, and you just can't put 2 attack minded midfielders in front of a single holder when your wingers are as attacking as ours. It'll be horrendously balanced and it doesn’t matter who our defenders are, they'll have people running at them all day due to the space that will be available.
And for us, yes I am literally saying Pogba only works as a 10 or on the left. That's why he has had constant critics when used deeper. That's why our midfield has constantly been overrun for years with him deep, he isn't a controlling midfielder, he isn't a dictating midfielder, he is really bad positionally... he just isn't a deeper mid. He's an attacking mid, just like Bruno is. You wouldn't buy Zidane and then play him at the base of a double pivot. You wouldn't do it with Iniesta. Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes would all be capable of it though. Same with Kroos or Modric. It's not a case of nobody has played him there. Playing on the left or as a 10 for us is the most similar role to what he had at Juve. For France he plays against lower league opposition most of the time, and then they play conservative tactics with more bodies behind in tougher games. In the Premier League, it's not a case that 90% of games he's fine. It's more like only 10 of the 38 games a season where we could actually get away with doing that behind Bruno and 3 attackers, of which our wingers do feck all defensively. It's suicidal tactics.
We'll see though. I fully expect him to be sold as I don't see him extending, but if we choose to ride out the last year I think we'll only rarely see him as a deeper mid, especially not in tougher/big games. I think he's more likely to be used as part of the front 4 rotation in any tough game, or more likely is Bruno dropping back even which would provide better balance than Pogba in the 2.
I dunno, I just disagree which is fine. I think ideally our team needs a controlling midfielder rather than a Pogba does. Even if he worked defensively fine in that position behind an attack like ours, he's still not the type we need on the ball IMO as he's just not a deeper controlling midfielder for me. On the ball he doesn't really have it in him to set the tempo like you see Pedri doing for Spain now. Like Verratti does for PSG, like Scholes used to do for us, Pirlo for Juve when they were together. Everything about Pogba when he plays to me seems like he shouldn't be used in the deeper positions, that he comes alive in the attacking third but nothing comes naturally to him being deeper and trying to dictate from there.Except Paul regularly has good games for us and the part your missing is the positives to having him on the pitch.
You and many others focus solely on perhaps the single questionable weakness in his game and make it seem like it’s impossible to field him in a deep position. I totally disagree, most managers have played him deep, there’s surely a reason for that.
I do think that the vast majority of games it would be fine to partner Pogba with an improved DM alongside him. The problem is we probably won’t get one and therefore we won’t see him next to one to ever settle this topic.
On the fullbacks you can quite easily ask them to sit more, tuck in and not bomb on, we’ve played like that for a long time until recently, in order to compensate (even if that’s needed.)
Playing Matuidi on the wing as your example of needing to cover for this issue is a lesser fix than having two arguably world class defensive fullbacks in this scenario.
Add Varane with Maguire and I personally wouldn’t worry about this because ultimately what you get from Pogba being on the pitch with assists, key passes, long balls etc outweighs what you lose having him on the bench.
Assuming we get Varane, what's your thoughts on 3 at the back?
GK
AWB - Varane - Maguire
Sancho - Bruno - DM - Pogba - Shaw
Cavani Rashford
Bit of a different look but allows both Bruno & Pogba with a more defensive setup behind him, the only one out of his comfort zone here is Sancho but Cavani regularly drops deep and AWB is used to defending one side of the pitch on his own
Assuming we get Varane, what's your thoughts on 3 at the back?
GK
AWB - Varane - Maguire
Sancho - Bruno - DM - Pogba - Shaw
Cavani Rashford
Bit of a different look but allows both Bruno & Pogba with a more defensive setup behind him, the only one out of his comfort zone here is Sancho but Cavani regularly drops deep and AWB is used to defending one side of the pitch on his own
Surely not signing Sancho to play him wing back.
