Pogba

[RUCK4444]

All the people who stick up for Pogba; we paid 89 million for him and he's been nowhere near justifying that obscene amount. For that money you should have a player who can play great to good consistently regardless of team mates. Bruno came in for half that and shown him up in the same team. Get shut asap Pogba and the circus around him.

Did he set the price that we agreed with Juve?

Did you not see his one clear weakness was defending and that Juve catered for that (as do France)?

Prime example of the price the club paid setting the tone for what our frankly naive fanbase were expecting.

If we end up spending 60 million or something stupid for Camavinga it doesn’t mean he’s going to rock up here and play like peak Gullit.

The same way we paid £80 mill for Maguire and are still trying to partner him with somebody to get the best from him, people refuse to acknowledge that we haven’t done exactly that with Pogba.

 

[Water Melon]

Is there any solid evidence that the Club are ineed in talks with Raiola over a new contract for Paul Pogba? The last few pages have derailed this thread quite a bit.

 

[Polar]

It’s very easy to be charmed by Pogba’s extreme (world class) offensive qualities. No one disagree about his offensive qualities. The problem is he doesn’t have necessary defensive qualities in order to be one of two in a double pivot. In that position Pogba’s contribution in sum is reduced to zero; his offensive strengths are neutralised by his defensive weaknesses.

If Pogba stays we have to play another system in order to take advantage of his strengths. If we continue to play the same system, I think we should replace Pogba.

Of these alternatives, I don’t know what’s the best alternative.

 

[Borys]

What are our teams stats with him in the side and without him in the side?

1,81 points per match with Pogba. Source
1,94 (74pts/38games) PPM overall.
EPL stats.

Is there any solid evidence that the Club are ineed in talks with Raiola over a new contract for Paul Pogba? The last few pages have derailed this thread quite a bit.

I would expect the club to leak news on that topic regardless if there's actually any negotiations ongoing or not (just a PR move). But it is rather quiet anyway.

 

[Bestietom]

I do think that Pogba will go to PSG this summer.
We need to have someone lined up to replace him.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Bruno, Maguire, Cavani, Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw, AVB, Fred, McT.

Of the players regularly start only Lindelof and James performed worse than Pogba imo.

Agreed.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Bruno statistically….performance wise he was pretty dire from December and in most big games, his stats from December particularly in the league also were poor given his position and freedom in the team.

Maguire…perhaps but not massively, especially when you look on a game by game basis. He had many very poor games. He seems much better for England than us perhaps he has a partner more suited to his weaknesses there.

Cavani…that’s ridiculous. Recency bias and people valuing running. He had a great last six weeks of the season. Prior to that he was poor and so were his stats.

Rashford…racked up good stats and decent performances from sept to November but second half of the season he was really really bad. The worst player on the pitch most games, and I’m a massive fan but wow he was awful.

Greenwood….again massive fan….no just no. Only in your head was he better than Pogba last season.

Shaw…Yes our best player last season performance wise and consistency.

AWB….Is a world class 1v1 defender. He wasn’t better than Pogba last season though.

Fred….Ha…no

McT….Had a good month and a good second half of the final. Other than that he was dross.

If you watched Pogba last season and honestly believe he had a poor season, so poor that only Dan James and Lindelof were worse then I’m sorry but that’s just you. It’s not a credible assesment of what actually happened week to week.

That is just ridiculous.

 

[romufc]

If you watched Pogba last season and honestly believe he had a poor season, so poor that only Dan James and Lindelof were worse then I’m sorry but that’s just you. It’s not a credible assesment of what actually happened week to week.

What happened week to week? You are here accusing others of recency bias? Pogba was so bad he had to be dropped early on in the season because he was so poor. He played well in December and January scoring a few good goals.

You cannot tell me someone had an amazing season and yet he doesn't know what his best position was, moved from CM, LW, RW just to accommodate him.

 

[Borys]

Bruno statistically….performance wise he was pretty dire from December and in most big games, his stats from December particularly in the league also were poor given his position and freedom in the team.

Maguire…perhaps but not massively, especially when you look on a game by game basis. He had many very poor games. He seems much better for England than us perhaps he has a partner more suited to his weaknesses there.

Cavani…that’s ridiculous. Recency bias and people valuing running. He had a great last six weeks of the season. Prior to that he was poor and so were his stats.

Rashford…racked up good stats and decent performances from sept to November but second half of the season he was really really bad. The worst player on the pitch most games, and I’m a massive fan but wow he was awful.

Greenwood….again massive fan….no just no. Only in your head was he better than Pogba last season.

Shaw…Yes our best player last season performance wise and consistency.

AWB….Is a world class 1v1 defender. He wasn’t better than Pogba last season though.

Fred….Ha…no

McT….Had a good month and a good second half of the final. Other than that he was dross.

If you watched Pogba last season and honestly believe he had a poor season, so poor that only Dan James and Lindelof were worse then I’m sorry but that’s just you. It’s not a credible assesment of what actually happened week to week.

The only players you can compare to him and really have a sensible discussion about it are Fred, McTominay, Matic and Bruno. Pogba for sure was performing worse than all of them bar Matic probably. His impact on the team in terms of points per game confirms that. Just because he was good for a couple of weeks doesn't make him better than Fred and McTominay who performed on constant ok-to-good level for the entire season. Bruno is in different league to Pogba as he carried us for half a season.

 

[bsCallout]

Will we all be friends again when he leaves?

 

[RUCK4444]

Will we all be friends again when he leaves?

No chance. I’m going to turn into the most annoying ‘told you so!’ arseh@le when he’s absolutely bossing it for another team.

Especially when we are basking in the sheer talent of McFred.

Ive taken names and they are getting it. Big time.

 

[RUCK4444]

I do think that Pogba will go to PSG this summer.
We need to have someone lined up to replace him.

No no, haven’t you heard? The caf has deemed him shite.

We don’t need him and better off without him in fact

 

[Idxomer]

What happened week to week? You are here accusing others of recency bias? Pogba was so bad he had to be dropped early on in the season because he was so poor. He played well in December and January scoring a few good goals.

You cannot tell me someone had an amazing season and yet he doesn't know what his best position was, moved from CM, LW, RW just to accommodate him.

No doubt recovering from covid while his manager kept playing him anyway had no impact on his performances at all.

 

[Infestissumam]

No chance. I’m going to turn into the most annoying ‘told you so!’ arseh@le when he’s absolutely bossing it for another team.

Especially when we are basking in the sheer talent of McFred.

Ive taken names and they are getting it. Big time.

I reckon you'll be pretty quiet then apart from 6-7 games a season.

 

[Alfie092]

I’d rather have 50m and say thankyou to whoever buy him from us. Even though I believe he would turn into worldclass player for his new club, like he always does for France.

I would only rather have the 50m IF I know the club would reinvest that money by looking for an adequate replacement for Pogba and not just put it in their back pockets!

 

[bsCallout]

No chance. I’m going to turn into the most annoying ‘told you so!’ arseh@le when he’s absolutely bossing it for another team.

Especially when we are basking in the sheer talent of McFred.

Ive taken names and they are getting it. Big time.

Even the biggest haters know he'll perform great elsewhere.

I'll try not to gloat when Camavinga is bossing the midfield and we win the league.

 

[romufc]

No doubt recovering from covid while his manager kept playing him anyway had no impact on his performances at all.

No doubt Covid was also the reason he got his agent to come out before a big UCL game and say Pogba to United is finished.

 

[Idxomer]

The only players you can compare to him and really have a sensible discussion about it are Fred, McTominay, Matic and Bruno. Pogba for sure was performing worse than all of them bar Matic probably. His impact on the team in terms of points per game confirms that. Just because he was good for a couple of weeks doesn't make him better than Fred and McTominay who performed on constant ok-to-good level for the entire season. Bruno is in different league to Pogba as he carried us for half a season.

Stats without context, I'm pretty sure this is the 1st season you'll find your favorite table being against Pogba. Shaw this season is also only 0.03 higher than him in PPG and no one questions his performances. McTominay only had 3 great games all season but now he too apparently was better than Pogba, Rozay was right as expected.

Look for reference to last season.

 

[Idxomer]

No doubt Covid was also the reason he got his agent to come out before a big UCL game and say Pogba to United is finished.

Not sure how this is related to what I've said but really I should know better by now.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He doesn’t fit, he’s a player who wants to have more freedom like Bruno.

If we play 433 like Silva and KDB then at least we need to sacrifice Shaw by playing him as inverted left back because that was how Pep operated his full back when he played Silva and KDB in 433. That will waste of Shaw’s creativity talent to drive forward, overlap and deliver crosses.

If we play double pivot, we need Kante next to him and Matuidi as wide player.

Sell Pogba and add Camavinga + Varane + Sancho imo already big upgrade to our team to provide more balance. Time to move him on and the fact he keeps switching his roles last season shows there is uncertainty how Pogba can fit in to our team.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I will eat my own ass if he re-signs. Not going to happen.

 

[Borys]

Stats without context, I'm pretty sure this is the 1st season you'll find your favorite table being against Pogba. Shaw this season is also only 0.03 higher than him in PPG and no one questions his performances. McTominay only had 3 great games all season but now he too apparently was better than Pogba, Rozay was right as expected.

Look for reference to last season.

Yeah, he was better 2 seasons ago. Yes, both Fred and McTominay have improved last season are were more important for the team on the span of the season. We have moved forward as a team since Bruno joined.
What's your point?

 

[JebelSherif]

Bruno statistically….performance wise he was pretty dire from December and in most big games, his stats from December particularly in the league also were poor given his position and freedom in the team.

Maguire…perhaps but not massively, especially when you look on a game by game basis. He had many very poor games. He seems much better for England than us perhaps he has a partner more suited to his weaknesses there.

Cavani…that’s ridiculous. Recency bias and people valuing running. He had a great last six weeks of the season. Prior to that he was poor and so were his stats.

Rashford…racked up good stats and decent performances from sept to November but second half of the season he was really really bad. The worst player on the pitch most games, and I’m a massive fan but wow he was awful.

Greenwood….again massive fan….no just no. Only in your head was he better than Pogba last season.

Shaw…Yes our best player last season performance wise and consistency.

AWB….Is a world class 1v1 defender. He wasn’t better than Pogba last season though.

Fred….Ha…no

McT….Had a good month and a good second half of the final. Other than that he was dross.

If you watched Pogba last season and honestly believe he had a poor season, so poor that only Dan James and Lindelof were worse then I’m sorry but that’s just you. It’s not a credible assesment of what actually happened week to week.

When I first joined this site, some people accused me of being a Huddersfield fan come on to slag off Utd. out of jealousy (I didn't by the way) but when I read this today it got me thinking, if that was my motivation, why bother? - you slag off your own players better than I ever could!

 

[Idxomer]

Yeah, he was better 2 seasons ago. Yes, both Fred and McTominay have improved last season are were more important for the team on the span of the season. We have moved forward as a team since Bruno joined.
What's your point?

This table is from 19/20, most of Pogba's games in there are after Bruno had joined.

McTominay was worse in 20/21 than 19/20. He didn't improve, he stagnated and all of his flaws are still there. Fred was praised as one of our best players before the league stopped because of the pandemic, nothing had changed much in regards to his game.

My point was right there before the bolded part.

 

[Strelok]

Even the biggest haters know he'll perform great elsewhere.

I'll try not to gloat when Camavinga is bossing the midfield and we win the league.

No doubt, he'd kill it there in France with PSG I think.

However imo if they play him in the big CL games they'll regret it, especially against teams who are good with pressing or have a quality midfield. Neymar and Mbappe basically don't do shit defensively already.

 

[Kearnkoff69]

When I first joined this site, some people accused me of being a Huddersfield fan come on to slag off Utd. out of jealousy (I didn't by the way) but when I read this today it got me thinking, if that was my motivation, why bother? - you slag off your own players better than I ever could!

Too true mate. Fair and objective criticism is always a good starting point for discussion boards, but the toxicity on here has increased exponentially in the last half decade.

 

[JebelSherif]

Too true mate. Fair and objective criticism is always a good starting point for discussion boards, but the toxicity on here has increased exponentially in the last half decade.

Yes - the 'R (you shit)' rate is above zero!

 

[romufc]

Not sure how this is related to what I've said but really I should know better by now.

The whole Pogba circus really, that's what he brings. If things aint going good for him, he gets his agent to blame the club and flirts with a move away rather than showing some fight for Manchester United.

Also, Covid affected him for how long? We have seen this Pogba for years and years, he has a purple patch during a season then gets bored and is crap.

 

[Borys]

This table is from 19/20, most of Pogba's games in there are after Bruno had joined.

McTominay was worse in 20/21 than 19/20. He didn't improve, he stagnated and all of his flaws are still there. Fred was praised as one of our best players before the league stopped because of the pandemic, nothing had changed much in regards to his game.

My point was right there before the bolded part.

Agreed about McTominay, he had stagnated in terms of general play but added a few nice goals.

Those are the stats from the whole season. That's all the context you need. It's actually interesting with Pogba we were getting more points than the average for all EPL games in 19/20 (1,88 to 1,74 on average). What would suggest he really was important for us two seasons ago. Not so much last season (1,81 to 1,94).

I can provide you context for Shaw as he was rested against lesser teams. I don't think that is the case with Pogba though, as Fred-McTominay were our main midfield pair against strong opponents and they're on better numbers than Pogba.

 

[Hugh Jass]

When I first joined this site, some people accused me of being a Huddersfield fan come on to slag off Utd. out of jealousy (I didn't by the way) but when I read this today it got me thinking, if that was my motivation, why bother? - you slag off your own players better than I ever could!

His criticism of Bruno and Rashford is terrible to see.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

PPG stats for individual players can be very misleading.

Player X (who rarely plays important games and gets most of his minutes against presumed weaker opponents) can easily have superior stats to Player Y (who's a preferred starter against presumed stronger opponents).

In order to use this stat properly, one needs to filter out a fair bit of noise first.

 

[Marwood]

No chance. I’m going to turn into the most annoying ‘told you so!’ arseh@le when he’s absolutely bossing it for another team.

Especially when we are basking in the sheer talent of McFred.

Ive taken names and they are getting it. Big time.

What if it's for PSG and within the French league his form suddenly improves?

Will you be accepting it's a lower standard of competition and judging him with that in my mind?

 

[Hammondo]

No doubt, he'd kill it there in France with PSG I think.

However imo if they play him in the big CL games they'll regret it, especially against teams who are good with pressing or have a quality midfield. Neymar and Mbappe basically don't do shit defensively already.

I agree with this. The French league is a much lower level and he will do well playing for the best team. However like with France in the Euros if their opposition is combative he struggles.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He doesn’t fit, he’s a player who wants to have more freedom like Bruno.

If we play 433 like Silva and KDB then at least we need to sacrifice Shaw by playing him as inverted left back because that was how Pep operated his full back when he played Silva and KDB in 433. That will waste of Shaw’s creativity talent to drive forward, overlap and deliver crosses.

If we play double pivot, we need Kante next to him and Matuidi as wide player.

Sell Pogba and add Camavinga + Varane + Sancho imo already big upgrade to our team to provide more balance. Time to move him on and the fact he keeps switching his roles last season shows there is uncertainty how Pogba can fit in to our team.

Not necessarily, we just need to be more creative.

Pep played with inverted fullbacks because he played midfielders at fullback. We don't need to copy this just because it's Pep.

In reality all we need to do to play a 4-3-3 is to ensure that when Bruno goes forward, Pogba and the DM can cover for him, and when Pogba goes forward, Bruno and the DM can cover for him. Basically a more balanced and unpredictable sharing of duties, with both Bruno and Pogs able to do damage as well as cover for each other.

The problem with the double pivot is that when Pogba goes forward he is also primarily responsible for running back, or else the DM will be swamped since we don't have defensively strong DM's. This means he's blunted offensively, and subsequently we're missing out on the opportunity to play a more offensive game by playing him in a primarily defensive role.

In any case he should be sold so we can recoup some value, unless we think we have a chance of winning the league this season.

 

[RUCK4444]

What if it's for PSG and within the French league his form suddenly improves?

Will you be accepting it's a lower standard of competition and judging him with that in my mind?

No I won't accept that it's a lower standard, the same way nobody here accepts he's being partnered with an ancient Matic or McFred.

Hows that? Fair? I think so.

 

[Hugh Jass]

I agree with this. The French league is a much lower level and he will do well playing for the best team. However like with France in the Euros if their opposition is combative he struggles.

This.

 

[He'sRaldo]

No chance. I’m going to turn into the most annoying ‘told you so!’ arseh@le when he’s absolutely bossing it for another team.

Especially when we are basking in the sheer talent of McFred.

Ive taken names and they are getting it. Big time.

He's already won leagues and reached CL finals at Juve. His quality is obviously not in doubt.

The only question is the tactical fit, the people conflating that to mean he's not a good player are clueless.

 

[Roane]

As a UTD fan the Pogba saga is annoying at best. Points already raised re his agent and the noise are all fair points.

There is another consideration though and that is the state we are in as a club or certainly have been since SAF left. I'm reminded of Rooney wanting to leave unless assurances were there in terms of signings etc.

5 years of Pogba have not seen the player we felt he was and I would acknowledge that, albeit not as bad as some would have you believe.

As a player I would certainly reflect if I had made the right choice at the right time. I would certainly like to have a few more medals especially if my rep was as high as his was/is. Having to play with the players he has over those 5 years would certainly have me annoyed at such a prestigious club.

Yeah some may see this as another excuse for Pogba but I would certainly like to think his noise was a reflection of that moreso than simply not wanting to be here.

I don't know of course, however the reports that are around suggest he is liked by all at the club and isn't the type who is having a negative effect on the team, players or manager.

Ultimately at 28 maybe it is time to either have assurances or move on to where there is potential to have the awards his talent maybe deserves?

As an individual I can see the reasoning behind that, as a UTD fan I hope he is maybe indirectly pushing the owners/manager.

As a team we need to have quality players in the squad. Pogba is quality and I don't think we need to necessarily buy Kante to her the best out of him. Just better than Periera, Lingard and McT and a Matic who isn't quite the player he was.

 

[RUCK4444]

I mean he's already won leagues and reached CL finals at Juve. His quality is obviously not in doubt.

The only question is the tactical fit, the people conflating that to mean he's not a good player are clueless.

Yea these are the ones at the top of my list.

I just wish rather than letting him go and 'fit in' elsewhere that we just invest in the DM position, because ultimately it will need improving anyway. Why wait for him to leave and us be lumbered with McFred before we all sit back and say 'ahhhh ya know what, we actually do need a decent DM.' Because that will happen, if the penny hasn't dropped for most already.

If we had already signed a proper DM (not Matic as he was passed it) and it hadn't worked then I'd be more accepting. It baffles me more don't feel exactly this way when you look at the reality of it, who we've partnered him with and the fact we are now losing a world class midfielder. It's been a total wasted investment one we've not in any way maximised our return on.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Not necessarily, we just need to be more creative.

Pep played with inverted fullbacks because he played midfielders at fullback. We don't need to copy this just because it's Pep.

In reality all we need to do to play a 4-3-3 is to ensure that when Bruno goes forward, Pogba and the DM can cover for him, and when Pogba goes forward, Bruno and the DM can cover for him. Basically a more balanced and unpredictable sharing of duties, with both Bruno and Pogs able to do damage as well as cover for each other.

The problem with the double pivot is that when Pogba goes forward he is also primarily responsible for running back, or else the DM will be swamped since we don't have defensively strong DM's. This means he's blunted offensively, and subsequently we're missing out on the opportunity to play a more offensive game by playing him in a primarily defensive role.

In any case he should be sold so we can recoup some value, unless we think we have a chance of winning the league this season.

There is no one apart from Pep's Man City that a manager able to field 433 with 2 attacking midfielder. Why? Because football needs balance. The point is Pogba and Bruno need balance and one DM is never enough but just people's fantasy because it is never be proven it can work without inverted full backs.

The main purpose Pep played inverted full backs because those inverted full backs provide cover for the midfielders. If he doesn't play inverted full backs then there is no balance in his Silva and KDB midfield three.